22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

This can't be true because as so many have pointed out, the Church contains "a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands." Revelation 7:9 Whereas the 144K are "sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."

We know that these two groups are not the same? Why? 144K is a fixed number, a group that can be counted. The church is a great multitude which no one can count.

144K --> a specific number
church --> a number that no one can count.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Paul not me says that while on earth or in heaven we are raised spiritually, reigning and seated with Christ

He also says to some: oh you’re rich, in need of nothing and are already reigning. I wish you were reigning because then we would be reigning with you.

Fit them together.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, why aren't you convinced that the 70 weeks took place in the past?

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and hasn't taken place in history as you believe and teach

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

[The Light]

The 70 weeks ran concurrently and ended at the stoning of Stephen, in my opinion.

I don't believe this to be the case. I just went thru all this in a couple of threads about the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the date of Christs death. I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just drawing a conclusion based on your statement. If I'm wrong set me straight. I think you believe that Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week and then the 70th week ended when Stephen died. This I think would be based on the belief that Jesus died in 30 AD.

First, the wrong decree is used for Daniel 9 to arrive at when the Messiah was revealed.
Daniel 7
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The claim is the decree to rebuild Jerusalem happened in 457 BC, Ezra 7. This is wrong. You can look in the decree and you will see nothing about rebuilding Jerusalem. The correct decree happened on March 5, 444 BC found in Nehimiah 2.

Secondly, Luke tells us that John's ministry began in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar which was 29 AD. Those that claim that Jesus died in 30 AD change the 15th year of Tiberius to 27 AD because Tiberius Caesar had a co-regency with Caesar Augustus that began in 12 AD. However, the truth is that 27 AD was the 39th year of Caesar Augustus and not the 15th year of Tiberius.

Thirdly. The date of the preparation day of the Passover falls on Wednesday in 30 AD. But Jesus died on Friday so Jesus could not have died in 30 AD as claimed. Jesus died on April 3, 33 AD.

The point is, the Messiah was cut off several days after the 69th week began and not in the middle of the 70th week.

The 70th week of Daniel is not complete.

BTW, I went and watched one of the videos of your pastor. Let me tell you, it was absolutely spectacular. The background information was spot on, and the video hit the nail directly on the head. Great video. Obviously, we have different beliefs, so I am not recommending him. However, the video was so good that I intend to come back and watch more as it is one of the few places, I have found that I can actually learn something.

 

[Truth7t7]

This can't be true because as so many have pointed out, the Church contains "a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands." Revelation 7:9 Whereas the 144K are "sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."

We know that these two groups are not the same? Why? 144K is a fixed number, a group that can be counted. The church is a great multitude which no one can count.

144K --> a specific number
church --> a number that no one can count.

Do you believe the 144,000 "Servants Of God" are saved and sealed by God and "Added" to the Church on earth, would you suggest God has different "Servants" and a different seal for ethnic groups in his Kingdom?

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[Marty fox]

He also says to some: oh you’re rich, in need of nothing and are already reigning. I wish you were reigning because then we would be reigning with you.

Fit them together.

Read the context Paul was disciplining them and correcting them they though that they themselves had obtained their wealth. The reigning wasn't the same reigning.

But you need to think about what Paul said in the verses I quoted.

 

[Marty fox]

If my memory serves me right, you believe (Antiochus IV Epiphanies) fulfilled the 70th week in Daniel's abomination in roughly 167BC, correct me if I'm wrong?

Yes correct

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes correct

Yes you believe (Antiochus IV Epiphanies) in 167BC fulfilled Daniel 9:27 below, and as I stated, your teaching and belief is standard reformed preterist eschatology in fulfillment, your claim I didn't know your belief was "Wrong" I accept your apology :)

Daniel's 70th week is future, and the bad guy seen will be present on earth to the "Consummation" or "Ultimate End"

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and didnt take place in 66-70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterism claims

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

[The Light]

69 weeks, then a 2,000 year "magical gap" and waiting for a future event in a 70th week, thats man made make believe

No. It's the plan of God. I won't waste the time proving it as it would be just that.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. It's the plan of God. I won't waste the time proving it as it would be just that.

A 2,000 year gap and waiting between Daniel's 69th-70th week, it's a man made fairy tale, fake it till ya make it, God's plan "Hardly"

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Read the context Paul was disciplining them and correcting them they though that they themselves had obtained their wealth. The reigning wasn't the same reigning.

But you need to think about what Paul said in the verses I quoted.

Oh I definitely thought about them. He has put many enemies under my feet. I rule over them now instead of them ruling over me. Enemies like pride, arrogance, thinking too highly of myself, my emotions that ruled over me mercilessly, most especially anger.

And I agree they aren’t the same thing. So I see both - one now, one future in the 1000 year reign.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

69 weeks, then a 2,000 year "magical gap" and waiting for a future event in a 70th week, thats man made make believe

There’s certainly precedence in that “magical” 2000 year gap you speak of. Jesus stopped reading exactly where He meant to.


61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;

 

[Truth7t7]

There’s certainly precedence in that “magical” 2000 year gap you speak of. Jesus stopped reading exactly where He meant to.


61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;

Not one word in the scripture you present deals with the magical 2,000 year gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week that many teach and believe

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you believe the 144,000 "Servants Of God" are saved and sealed by God and "Added" to the Church on earth, would you suggest God has different "Servants" and a different seal for ethnic groups in his Kingdom?

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

No, I believe the sealed Hebrews are mortals, living on the earth, and being protected from what is to come. The Church is located in heaven.

 

[jeffweeder]

There’s certainly precedence in that “magical” 2000 year gap you speak of. Jesus stopped reading exactly where He meant to.


61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;

Why should that postpone the 70th week?

The 70 weeks are about a death occurring for an eternal redemption not vengeance.
Besides the days of vengeance would begin in a short time rather than at his second coming...,


Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, I believe the sealed Hebrews are mortals, living on the earth, and being protected from what is to come. The Church is located in heaven.

You didn't answer the question below, I removed the word earth

Do you believe the 144,000 "Servants Of God" are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and sealed by God and "Added" to the Church, would you suggest God has different "Servants" and a different seal for ethnic groups in his Kingdom?

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[Marty fox]

Oh I definitely thought about them. He has put many enemies under my feet. I rule over them now instead of them ruling over me. Enemies like pride, arrogance, thinking too highly of myself, my emotions that ruled over me mercilessly, most especially anger.

And I agree they aren’t the same thing. So I see both - one now, one future in the 1000 year reign.

I'm very glad to hear that.

I see that the message of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit in us is the great chain that binds satan by deceiving us about our true identity which is in Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why should that postpone the 70th week?

The 70 weeks are about a death occurring for an eternal redemption not vengeance.
Besides the days of vengeance would begin in a short time rather than at his second coming...,


Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

We Disagree, You Believe And Teach Daniel's 70th Week Has Been Fulfilled As Seen In Your Claim Above "Wrong"

Daniel's 70th week is future, and the bad guy seen will be present on earth to the "Consummation" or "Ultimate End"

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and didnt take place in 66-70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterism claims

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and hasn't taken place in history as you believe and teach

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

In your view, when does the 70 weeks begin?

 

[Truth7t7]

In your view, when does the 70 weeks begin?

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal "Future" Weeks Explained

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.