22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Stunnedbygrace, that is a very, very good reason to make that conclusion. Now let's see why it is wrong. You in your own words said, that it is PART of the first resurrection. The Church will not be on the earth during the tribulation.

okay, stop right here. Show me the verses that you think say the church will not be present for any part of the tribulation.

And by the way, thanks for wanting to help me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So when John saw Jesus as the slain man was that too specific?

Just as John heard of the lion of the tribe of Judah he turned and saw the slain lamb John heard of the 144000 he then saw the great multitude of ever tribe land nation. The 144 is symbolic for the 12 tribes times the 12 deciples and the thousand means many.

Again it’s not the 12 tribes mentioned or even that’s it’s men.

I have to leave now I will get back to these.

Like I said, I don’t see it as all one way. I see it flowing back and forth and in and out. I don’t see it as you do that it has to be all one way or all another way. I see that it behaves differently than that.

 

[WPM]

Rapture is not in the bible... But caught up is!

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Now... I can imagine folk getting ready as this was going to happen in their time...

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition... - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

Rapture Prerequisites...

1. Great Falling Away
2. Revealing of the Anti-Christ... Who...

Causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. - Revelation 13:16-17

So, who or what is antichrist and when does he appear?

 

[Truth7t7]

So, who or what is antichrist and when does he appear?

(The Future Antichrist)

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, it does not specifically say “caught up to heaven.”

In 1 Thess 4:17, Paul is talking about the glorious Return of Jesus, who has departed from heaven and is on His way to Jerusalem.
The idea of anyone going to live in heaven is unbiblical and cannot happen. Jesus said so; John 3:13

It is very unfortunate and an indictment on everyone, to be so confused and at variance in beliefs about what God has planned for our future.
Rather than making speculations and guesses, its best just to say: I trust You, Lord in whatever happens, as most Christians that I know do, as they just put all the Prophesies into the 'too hard basket'.
Ideas of going to heaven while the earth below goes thru Great Tribulation, are never said to be what will happen, we must endure until the end.

As for the 144.000, careful study and understanding of Prophesies like Ezekiel 40 to 48, show that it will be the righteous, faithful Christian peoples, who will occupy all of the holy Land and will be divided into 12 groups, each named after one of Jacobs sons.
12,000 missionaries will be selected from each group by Jesus, Revelation 14:1-5 and they will go out to the nations and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:18b-21 confirms this.

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% Spiritual Realm, no Kingdom on earth or mortal humans are seen and you know it

This assertion is so ridiculous and obviously wrong, your credibility is gone.

 

[Truth7t7]

In 1 Thess 4:17, Paul is talking about the glorious Return of Jesus, who has departed from heaven and is on His way to Jerusalem.
The idea of anyone going to live in heaven is unbiblical and cannot happen. Jesus said so; John 3:13

It is very unfortunate and an indictment on everyone, to be so confused and at variance in beliefs about what God has planned for our future.
Rather than making speculations and guesses, its best just to say: I trust You, Lord in whatever happens, as most Christians that I know do, as they just put all the Prophesies into the 'too hard basket'.
Ideas of going to heaven while the earth below goes thru Great Tribulation, are never said to be what will happen, we must endure until the end.

As for the 144.000, careful study and understanding of Prophesies like Ezekiel 40 to 48, show that it will be the righteous, faithful Christian peoples, who will occupy all of the holy Land and will be divided into 12 groups, each named after one of Jacobs sons.
12,000 missionaries will be selected from each group by Jesus, Revelation 14:1-5 and they will go out to the nations and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:18b-21 confirms this.

This assertion is so ridiculous and obviously wrong, your credibility is gone.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Going to have to skip some posts. I can post what I find but it gets a bit too nutty for me to keep reading some of them. Thanks for the chat guys.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Going to have to skip some posts. I can post what I find but it gets a bit too nutty for me to keep reading some of them. Thanks for the chat guys.

You are Very Welcome ;)

 

[WPM]

Hi Stunnedbygrace, that is a very, very good reason to make that conclusion. Now let's see why it is wrong. You in your own words said, that it is PART of the first resurrection. The Church will not be on the earth during the tribulation. The tribulation occurs during the six seals and the great tribulation occurs at the 5th seal. In Revelation 4 and 5 we see the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns and we see kings and priests which is what the Church is as you can see the those promises in Rev 1-3. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people Daniel. That cannot be complete until after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Church will not be on the earth when the seals are opened. Here is the mistake that the pretrib rapture theory makes. It thinks that the coming of Jesus when He sends His angels to gather the elect occurs at the end of the trumpets of wrath or the vials. (these happen in the same timeframe), but that's not true. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when He sends His angels to gather the elect happens at the 6th seal before wrath. Here's how we know that.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, the mistake is made that tribulation occurs during wrath. By these verses we know that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

He is the exact same coming Jesus that occurs at 6th seal in Revelation 14. Notice that the coming occurs just before wrath just as we saw in Revleation 6

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So, the next question is who is the harvest for?

I'll be out till this evening but look forward to your response. And there will be a pretribulation rapture.

Can you show us one single rapture passage that teaches there will be a seven-year tribulation after it and then a 3rd coming (parousia)?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Can you show us one single rapture passage that teaches there will be a seven-year tribulation after it

Well…no, I can’t. I don’t any longer think our gathering/the first resurrection occurs before the tribulation. As I’ve said, Rev 20 showed me it can’t be because those who didn’t take the mark are among those of the first resurrection and it’s DURING the tribulation that the mark occurs. Admittedly, someone might show up who has worked through that and remained pretrib and can explain it but…I don’t think so…

 

[WPM]

Well…no, I can’t. I don’t any longer think our gathering/the first resurrection occurs before the tribulation. As I’ve said, Rev 20 showed me it can’t be because those who didn’t take the mark are among those of the first resurrection and it’s DURING the tribulation that the mark occurs. Admittedly, someone might show up who has worked through that and remained pretrib and can explain it but…I don’t think so…

I agree with your overall conclusion. I am a former Pretribber. Many of us are.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well…no, I can’t. I don’t any longer think our gathering/the first resurrection occurs before the tribulation. As I’ve said, Rev 20 showed me it can’t be because those who didn’t take the mark are among those of the first resurrection and it’s DURING the tribulation that the mark occurs. Admittedly, someone might show up who has worked through that and remained pretrib and can explain it but…I don’t think so…

As

 

[Marty fox]

mmm…the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20 seems to me to speak of actual bodies - “came to life again.”
Then it says, the rest of dead didn’t come to life again until after a thousand years.

If it only had a spiritual meaning and not a literal meaning, they wouldn’t be called dead in the first place. It’s their bodies that died.

Because the ones pointed out in that verse died physically but even though they died they are still alive spiritually.

I have shown scripture that Paul states that the raising and reigning in revelation chapter 20 is a current reality and here is one more

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

This once again is a fulfilment of revelation 20:4.

I can’t believe that Christians would deny Paul and that the reigning the raising to life and seating up with Jesus isn’t a current reality for us living on earth today when three times Paul teaches that it was a current reality when he used the term “us”.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Because the ones pointed out in that verse died physically but even though they died they are still alive spiritually.

I have shown scripture that Paul states that the raising and reigning in revelation chapter 20 is a current reality and here is one more

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

This once again is a fulfilment of revelation 20:4.

I can’t believe that Christians would deny Paul and that the reigning the raising to life and seating up with Jesus isn’t a current reality for us living on earth today when three times Paul teaches that it was a current reality when he used the term “us”.

Once again, I see both. I absolutely do know I have a new life. That is a current reality. Almost daily (at least weekly) now my mind is renewed about something and I just start thinking differently about it. Over a year ago, He quite suddenly calmed my passions and they no longer rule over me mercilessly.
But I also see we will be raised again and given a new body.
So I see both, which you seem to think is impossible. I just don’t understand the rigidness that would insist there’s no literal fulfillment of stuff but only spiritual fulfillment. It’s just not so.

 

[WPM]

Once again, I see both. I absolutely do know I have a new life. That is a current reality. Almost daily (at least weekly) now my mind is renewed about something and I just start thinking differently about it. Over a year ago, He quite suddenly calmed my passions and they no longer rule over me mercilessly.
But I also see we will be raised again and given a new body.
So I see both, which you seem to think is impossible. I just don’t understand the rigidness that would insist there’s no literal fulfillment of stuff but only spiritual fulfillment. It’s just not so.

I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. Amils believe in the final physical literal resurrection when Jesus comes. But they see it as the end. They see the rescue of the saints and the destruction of the wicked as occurring on the same climactic day.

 

[The Light]

Can you show us one single rapture passage that teaches there will be a seven-year tribulation after it and then a 3rd coming (parousia)?

Well. Right now I trying to build a car. Can you show me one single car part that I can use to build a Maserati that gets 70 miles a gallon?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. Amils believe in the final physical literal resurrection when Jesus comes. But they see it as the end. They see the rescue of the saints and the destruction of the wicked as occurring on the same climactic day.

mmm…no, he’s actually saying Rev 20:4 has already been literally fulfilled. Or at the very least, he’s saying it is never literally fulfilled, only spiritually. Not sure what he thinks the beheadings really mean, too afraid to ask!
I can see the spiritual aspects of some things. But he can’t see any literal aspects of those things. So I see both, he only sees one.

 

[WPM]

mmm…no, he’s actually saying Rev 20:4 has already been literally fulfilled.

No. Amils related the GWT judgment as the one-and-only judgement day at the second coming. Scripture never talks about Judgment Days (plural). Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-13 agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai] with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[Marilyn C]

Is Micah 4:1-3 that you present, a parallel reading of Isaiah 2:2-5 seen below?

Isaiah 2:2-5KJV
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Yes, which I think you would know.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. Amils related…

Yeah I don’t know about amils. I’m telling you what one man has said and I have a pretty firm grasp of what HE is saying.
And, sorry, I’m not reading the rest of that. I gave it a go but had to stop.