22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

That is because Premillers of all stripes conflate the 'time, times and half a time' (mentioned in Revelation) with the last half of the 70th week. (mentioned Daniel 9) Then they say a countdown could recommence from when an abomination is set up in a rebuilt temple. This line of thinking has done modern eschatology a disservice.



As I understand Amil, the 'time, times and half a time' mentioned in Revelation will indeed come in the future, but are symbolic figures representing a short time of trial. Although short, it should not be treated as an exactly literal count of 3.5 years.

I agree bro. But as mentioned by Marty above, there might be a strong argument to believe that we are in Satan's little season right now (however long that is).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is because Premillers of all stripes conflate the 'time, times and half a time' (mentioned in Revelation) with the last half of the 70th week. (mentioned Daniel 9) Then they say a countdown could recommence from when an abomination is set up in a rebuilt temple. This line of thinking has done modern eschatology a disservice.



As I understand Amil, the 'time, times and half a time' mentioned in Revelation will indeed come in the future, but are symbolic figures representing a short time of trial. Although short, it should not be treated as an exactly literal count of 3.5 years.

Yeah…I could never see that either. Time, times and half a time seems too carefully exact for me to accept that it means some unspecified amount of time. I would rather think God would not be exact if He didn’t intend for us to look carefully at it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I hope someone comes in who sees something different about Rev 20 than I saw earlier today who has a valid or plausible answer. I’m still in an upheaval over it.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yeah…I could never see that either. Time, times and half a time seems too carefully exact for me to accept that it means some unspecified amount of time. I would rather think God would not be exact if He didn’t intend for us to look carefully at it.

Revelation draws some of its imagery from the ancient Hebrew calendar.

 

[Marty fox]

Ah, okay…amil means post trib, didnt know that.
At a glance, I can only see it’s possibility if it was also at least midtrib or before.
So…I can’t figure out why it’s called post trib because I assumed post trib meant one believed all had to live through both satans wrath AND the wrath of God.

Do you mean amils possibility?

We do live under satans wrath and Gods wrath but we only can suffer from satans wrath not Gods wrath. We can live through Gods wrath but it is on the unjust not the just.

 

[Marty fox]

I hope someone comes in who sees something different about Rev 20 than I saw earlier today who has a valid or plausible answer. I’m still in an upheaval over it.

What did you see different about rev 20 today?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Revelation draws some of its imagery from the ancient Hebrew calendar.

Okay…but then it still would be referring to some amount of time. Like days, months or years…

 

[Marty fox]

I agree bro. But as mentioned by Marty above, there might be a strong argument to believe that we are in Satan's little season right now (however long that is).

Revelation 20:7-9
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

We the city God loves the true church are surrounded by the world and the conforming church who conformed and released satan just like the faithful did back in the days of Noah. This time God won’t destroy the world with water but with fire.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What did you see different about rev 20 today?

Oops! I got confused and thought I was in my thread! I remember now. I came in here specifically to give ammo to those who argue against pretrib.

It was this I saw today: pretrib thinks the first resurrection happens before the tribulation. But Rev 20 puts those who refused the mark during the tribulation IN the first resurrection. Nothing else anyone ever brought up made me question pretrib. In THEIR mind they had irrefutable proof but when I thought about it, they were doing very strange mental gymnastics and putting things together in arbitrary ways, to my mind. (I think ALL the endtimes views do some of that.)
But what I saw today made me rethink what I’ve thought for 16 years was the most sensical thing.
So I have to look some more. Pre the wrath of God, I’m definitely still there. But pre trib, not there any more. I finally found something that makes it impossible. (Unless someone can answer the problem in a way I haven’t been able to.)

 

[Christian Gedge]

Okay…but then it still would be referring to some amount of time. Like days, months or years…

So, how are we going to treat Revelation 17:12? Literally or symbolically?

"And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast."​

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, how are we going to treat Revelation 17:12? Literally or symbolically?

"And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast."​

We are told the ten horns are ten kings. So it is obvious the horns are symbolic. We are not told they are a huge but unspecified number of kings. The number ten still remains the number ten. The horns are symbolic of kings, but the number ten is not symbolic.
So…the answer I give is - both.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Think symbolic Sis when reading Revelation, otherwise you are doomed into becoming a premil pillar of wood.

 

[Marty fox]

Oops! I got confused and thought I was in my thread! I remember now. I came in here specifically to give ammo to those who argue against pretrib.

It was this I saw today: pretrib thinks the first resurrection happens before the tribulation. But Rev 20 puts those who refused the mark during the tribulation IN the first resurrection. Nothing else anyone ever brought up made me question pretrib. In THEIR mind they had irrefutable proof but when I thought about it, they were doing very strange mental gymnastics and putting things together in arbitrary ways, to my mind. (I think ALL the endtimes views do some of that.)
But what I saw today made me rethink what I’ve thought for 16 years was the most sensical thing.
So I have to look some more. Pre the wrath of God, I’m definitely still there. But pre trib, not there any more. I finally found something that makes it impossible. (Unless someone can answer the problem in a way I haven’t been able to.)

First remember that the saints are sealed and protected from the wrath of God in revelation 7 so they are still there. Revelation 7 also shows that the saints are killed in the great tribulation so they are there too thus the wrath of God and the great tribulation are different so no pretrib.

The answer to your question is that the first resurrection is spiritual not physical while on earth. Revelation 20:4 is showing us that even though they died physically they are still spiritually alive in heaven.

Paul teaches us that we are raised spiritually while on earth.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

 

[Keraz]

Was that supposed to help me…? Call it a gathering together in the air to meet the Lord instead of rapture if it helps. If the word rapture triggers you, call it that. This verse, some call “caught up,” “raptured,” “gathered together.”
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So to say it doesn’t ever happen is odd when Paul said it WILL happen. And to say 3:13 means no human EVER will is even odder. He said no one had ever gone there except Himself, who came from there. How you then confidently say no one will EVER go there is pretty puzzling…

I do not deny 1 Thess 4:17, it will happen when Jesus Returns. As Matthew 24:30-31 confirms.
It is the destination - going to heaven, that is not mentioned by Paul and is added by the 'rapture to heaven' believers.
Jesus has come down from heaven, He gathers His faithful people and all go to Jerusalem, where He will reign from for the next thousand years.
Proved by Zechariah 14:16-21 and Revelation 20.

That is because Premillers of all stripes conflate the 'time, times and half a time' (mentioned in Revelation) with the last half of the 70th week. (mentioned Daniel 9) Then they say a countdown could recommence from when an abomination is set up in a rebuilt temple

Just as Revelation 13:1-8 tells us; a 42 month [3 1/2 years or 1260 days] time from the AoD to the glorious Return.

 

[WPM]

I do not deny 1 Thess 4:17, it will happen when Jesus Returns. As Matthew 24:30-31 confirms.
It is the destination - going to heaven, that is not mentioned by Paul and is added by the 'rapture to heaven' believers.
Jesus has come down from heaven, He gathers His faithful people and all go to Jerusalem, where He will reign from for the next thousand years.
Proved by Zechariah 14:16-21 and Revelation 20.

Not so. Where does it mention earthly Jerusalem in Revelation 20?

 

[Marilyn C]

Not so. Where does it mention earthly Jerusalem in Revelation 20?

God wrote many books with many prophecies, all reveal part of His wondrous plan. You seem to want God to put all the details in one spot just for you. We are not in kindergarten where we have to have everything laid out in one spot. We should be growing to maturity in attitude and truth appreciating ALL of God`s word, not just pulling apart a single part.

 

[Truth7t7]

God wrote many books with many prophecies, all reveal part of His wondrous plan. You seem to want God to put all the details in one spot just for you. We are not in kindergarten where we have to have everything laid out in one spot. We should be growing to maturity in attitude and truth appreciating ALL of God`s word, not just pulling apart a single part.

Fact is, no Kingdom on this earth or mortal humans are seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's a man made fairy tale

Millennialist use the words (Thousand Years) in Revelation 20:1-6 then jump off into the Old Testament with false claims that this represents a Kingdom on earth "Wrong"

Post all your claims of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth in the Old Testament, and you will be shown it doesn't exist

 

[Marilyn C]

Fact is, no Kingdom on this earth or mortal humans are seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's a man made fairy tale

Millennialist use the words (Thousand Years) in Revelation 20:1-6 then jump off into the Old Testament with false claims that this represents a Kingdom on earth "Wrong"

Post all your claims of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth in the Old Testament, and you will be shown it doesn't exist

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills; and many peoples shall flow to is. Many nations shall come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.:

For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hook; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.` (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

 

[Truth7t7]

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills; and many peoples shall flow to is. Many nations shall come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.:

For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hook; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.` (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

Is Micah 4:1-3 that you present, a parallel reading of Isaiah 2:2-5 seen below?

Isaiah 2:2-5KJV
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

 

[Keraz]

Not so. Where does it mention earthly Jerusalem in Revelation 20?

Revelation 20:9 They marched over the Land and laid siege to the camp of God's people, in the city He loves........

You are wrong and have been proved wrong many times. But like any recidivist opposer of the truth, you just keep on hammering and abusing everyone who refutes you.
Your bad attitude and your unbiblical beliefs condemn you.