22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Yet we have an OP with 22 personal opinions about God's Word. The majority of them twisting Scripture and coming from a personal bias.

So, why do you keep ducking around these 22 strong truths? Because you have no answer to them. Be honest! Stop avoiding the obvious!

 

[Timtofly]

Why not start them up every Sunday in church?

The Second Coming has not happened yet. Why claim the Second Coming is an ongoing spiritual birth process? That is your personal interpretation of Zechariah 14. Why don't you have holy pots in church every Sunday where people have convinced themselves they have not been a sinner all week?

John says if we claim we have no sin, we are a liar. All those holy pots in church each Sunday you bring, are pots of deception and liars.

I am a sinner, I have been redeemed by God's grace.

You are the one proclaiming holy pots without sin in church every Sunday as an ongoing spiritual phenomenon instead of a post Second Coming phenomenon.

We cannot have a temple and sacrifices now. That can only happen after the Second Coming. This question is just a blatant disregard for God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

It is better than being a Dispensatanist!

I thought post that were just personal attacks were forbidden, and not strong arguments. Is this what this thread boils down to after all the hype of having Scripture on your side?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Stop ducking my question: is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?

Stop asking your question.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you waste your time promoting something that will never happen?

I gave you a detailed explanation. And this is what I get in response? Okay. Fine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I gave you a detailed explanation. And this is what I get in response? Okay. Fine.

I took a chance that you might listen and consider it. Live and learn.

 

[WPM]

Stop asking your question.

You promise to answer this question if I answered your question. I did. So: is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?

You claim to be a Christian and a pastor. So, keep your word.

Why would any poster take you serious again?

It is obvious that you are extremely uncomfortable with addressing this directly.

 

[GEN2REV]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We escape through tribulations, not from them entirely. Just as Noah escaped through the flood, his family wasn't taken out of the world prior to it. God is always testing our faith - not just to give us a hard time, but to also strengthen our faith and create endurance and perseverance. To show us how to trust Him through the difficult times.

The tribulation is the 6 seals. The seals are not opened yet and will not be open until the fulness of the Gentiles comes. in

I don't agree with those interpretations of Revelation. It is a book that is full of signs and symbols and is very non-literal. There are many parts of that book that do not run chronologically, or in a linear fashion.

Many who claim the Trib cannot have begun yet because of these specific prophecies in Revelation, etc., are making excuses for the sentiment that the Pre-Trib could not have possibly passed yet, but those claims have no basis in reality. There is nothing in any of those prophecies that prove any specific dates or times. It is highly likely many of them have already happened.

The Pre-Trib Rapture functions only to cause professed Christians to be lax in their walk and in their commitment to God. If they believe that the end simply cannot be near because a specific easily identifiable event, like billions of people disappearing all at once, they are far more likely to live loosely and assume they will have a second chance if they miss the first bus. It is a ploy of the devil to draw the masses to their doom; and it is completely unbiblical.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You promise to answer this question if I answered your question. I did. So: is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?

You claim to be a Christian and a pastor. So, keep your word.

Why would any poster take you serious again?

It is obvious that you are extremely uncomfortable with addressing this directly.

I did answer it. You didn't accept the answer.
I don't care if you answer me again. But I know you can't help yourself.

 

[Keraz]

I explained it to you before. Perhaps you forgot

Your posts #5306/7, are excellent. They are a reasoned and correct exposition of what has happened and what will happen.
I have copied them for reference, thanks.

Please do not let personal attacks affect you, those who present the truths of God' plans for mankind, must expect opposition.

People who deny that there will be future sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple, simply have not read or comprehended what ALL of the Bible teaches on this matter.
It is sad that so many Christians just cannot see the tremendous changes to come. The world as we know it now, will soon be gone, never to be the same again and we who keep firm in our faith thru it all, will receive the Blessings of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will give you a straightforward answer again, and will highlight it in bold red :)

I see God's "Wrath" as being future, being poured out of his cup on "the day of the Lord" at the future second coming on the Last day (The End)

That's not a straightforward answer to my question, though! I asked you if you believe that the wrath referenced in Luke 21:23 is God's wrath. Yes or no? Is it too much to ask for you to answer yes or no to that question?

 

[Keraz]

I don't agree with those interpretations of Revelation. It is a book that is full of signs and symbols and is very non-literal. There are many parts of that book that do not run chronologically, or in a linear fashion.

There is a general sequence of events in Revelation. We are warned to not mess with that, or any of scripture.
Saying that Revelation is full of symbols and signs, is totally useless and just a cop-out.
Symbols, in every case; can be explained. Signs are for our warnings, when things really do start to happen.

It is highly likely many of them have already happened

It is totally obvious that none of Revelation from Rev 6:12 to the end, have happened.

The Pre-Trib Rapture functions only to cause professed Christians to be lax in their walk and in their commitment to God. If they believe that the end simply cannot be near because a specific easily identifiable event, like billions of people disappearing all at once, they are far more likely to live loosely and assume they will have a second chance if they miss the first bus. It is a ploy of the devil to draw the masses to their doom; and it is completely unbiblical.

Spot on!
The 'rapture to heaven', is a Satanic deception. God has allowed it in order to winnow His people, those who fail to keep their faith when terrible and dramatic things happen, as they remain on earth. Matthew 3:12, 1 Peter 4:12

 

[WPM]

I did answer it. You didn't accept the answer.
I don't care if you answer me again. But I know you can't help yourself.

If you are telling the truth, then point me and the reader to your direct answer to: "is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?"

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you are telling the truth, then point me and the reader to your direct answer to: "is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?"

I don't know how to search for specific posts. I have spent hours looking for stuff.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did answer it. You didn't accept the answer.
I don't care if you answer me again. But I know you can't help yourself.

Can you tell me where you answered the question of whether or not you believe that Ezekiel 40-48 relates to a future Millennium with the newly built temple and animal sacrifices that you believe in? Otherwise, you can just answer it again here with a simple yes or no.

 

[WPM]

I don't know how to search for specific posts. I have spent hours looking for stuff.

This is becoming ridiculous (honestly), answer this yes or no: is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?"

You are clearly extremely uncomfortable with answering this simple question for some reason.

 

[WPM]

Can you tell me where you answered the question of whether or not you believe that Ezekiel 40-48 relates to a future Millennium with the newly built temple and animal sacrifices that you believe in? Otherwise, you can just answer it again here with a simple yes or no.

Exactly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Saying that my post is a cop out is prejudicial language and an appeal to emotion. Instead of asking me "what are you afraid of here?" Ask me, "what is at stake here?" I am not afraid of the truth as you seem to suggest.

Yet, despite being asked about Ezekiel 40-48 several times, you wouldn't answer the question. Is your view not based at all on Ezekiel 40-48? I believe it likely is, but if it's not then we could just let that go.

I'll tell you want is at stake. I am not convinced that the final chapters of Ezekiel are fulfilled in history yet. I could be wrong but I don't think so, for the reasons I said earlier. Consider Ezekiel chapter 45 for instance. In that chapter we witness at least two (if not more) unique innovations to the original covenant that have not been realized in history. First, Ezekiel says that the prince will offer the sacrifices instead of the priest. Second, the land will be parceled out differently than before.

You said previously that the future animal sacrifices that you believe will be performed in the future would not be for the atonement of sins. Yet, this is what it says in Ezekiel 45:15-17...

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

It couldn't be more clear that the sacrifices and offerings referenced in the Ezekiel prophecy were "to make atonement for the Israelites". So, if you think this is talking about the future, then that would contradict you having said the sacrifices and offerings would not be made for atonement.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, of course God commanded them a long time ago. And yes, one particular sacrifice foreshadowed the cross. But this does not mean that God won't institute them again. I don't dismiss them as easily as you do.

How do you reconcile your belief in future animal sacrifices with this:

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This makes it clear that the Lord does not desire animal sacrifices and offerings. It says Jesus set all that aside, which was part of the old covenant and established the new covenant through His "once for all" sacrifice which was the "all time one sacrifice for sins". So, with this in mind, why would animal sacrifices and offerings, which the Lord does not desire and is not pleased with, ever be reinstated?

The Lord will once again institute the sacrifices during that time in our future when God chooses to sanctify his holy name.

Why? If you can't answer this question, then you can't be taken seriously. If you just say that He has His reasons, but we don't know what they are, that is a weak argument that can't be taken seriously. There is no chance whatsoever that if animal sacrifices were to be performed again in the future that scripture would not give the reason and purpose for them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You give a "like" to many of his posts so I don't know why you haven't seen it yourself.

Do you know how to search the thread? I don't. I should learn. I would look for the word "Premils", which WPM uses often.

Do you just forget everything you ever say? Why do I have to search for it? You can't repeat what you said? You don't need to go into great detail or anything. I don't want to spend a bunch of time searching for your posts. It can be done and there is a search feature on here, but I don't know why you can't just tell me what you were talking about instead of just telling me to look it up. Does that mean you don't even remember what you were talking about?