22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Phoneman777]

3. MOST FIGURATIVE: How in the world can "one thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) be seen as anything other than 1,000 years (which is called a "Millennium" from the Latin "milli" for 1,000).

I agree...and feel the same way about the 70 Weeks being ONLY 70 Weeks, and not "70 Weeks plus 2,000 years and counting"

 

[Truth7t7]

And? So what! What does that prove? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes a similar statement, only from the opposite point of view, saying, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

I don’t believe anyone would argue with any credence that this title is restricted to one lone human being – quite the opposite. It is speaking of a composite man. It is not limited to only males, it also embraces females. It is a generic term. It is representative of all the redeemed. The phrase “the man of God” in 2 Timothy 3:16 is a broad expression representing all of the righteous or all those “in Christ.” Likewise, the phrase “the man of sin” could be viewed as embodying the antithesis group – all the wicked – rather than any one particular individual.

This doesn't in any way suggest that there is one singular man of God. No, it is rather descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks the righteous. Likewise, the man of sin (lawlessness) is descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks sinful man. We are clearly looking at the spirit of this world, the spirit of Antichrist, the spirit of error.

I believe another major weakness in the he-and-him argument is seen in how readily and effortlessly Futurists get their head round calling the whore of Babylon “she” and “her” – even though they would never dream of insisting that she was a literal physical woman.

This totally undermines the literalist reasoning!

Your argument has nothing to do with the fact of scripture below, as you deny a future literal human man (The Beast) that will come

Scripture below identifies the man of sin with the personal pronoun "Him" a human man

"Them" and "They" below are identifying a group of unsaved, not the "Him" living inside this group as you falsely claim

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Phoneman777]

You're the one blinded, Your no translator of the Bible, the 1611 KJV committee members were God fearing brilliant men

Your claim is false, it's the number of "A Man"

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Those "brilliant men" who wrote the KJV said the "Man of Sin" (aka "Whore of Babylon" aka "Little Horn of Daniel" aka "Beast of Revelation 13) is the Papacy. They understood that the symbolic "1,260 days" of Revelation referred to a literal 1,260 years of Papal reign.

How can one "singular man" live 1,260 literal years?

The "Man of Sin" is no more a reference to a singular man than is the "Man of God may be perfect" referring to a singular man, either.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are avoiding my point again. I addressed your distraction on my last post. Who is this human that will get the support of all the unelect?

Im not avoiding your post in distraction "False Claim"!

Scripture teaches the human (Man Of Sin) He, His, Himself, will be revealed to the Church and World in the "Future" as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 teaches below, whom the Lord will destroy at his "Future" second coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Keraz]

None of this has anything to do with your imaginary future millennium.

Isaiah 56:1-8 and Ezekiel 40 to 48, are Prophesies of the time before Jesus Returns. They do not fit in the Millennium. Which is not 'imaginary' at all.

They do not care what the New Testament says on the subject. They ignore it. They reject it. They rubbish it.

This borders on being libellous.
I would not like to be in your shoes at the Judgment, for how you rudely and nastily accuse your fellow brethren.

As for explaining why God will require sacrifices and offerings again; we do not know the Mind of God. We only know that He wanted them before and that He does not change. Isn't that sufficient for you? Why can't you prove that God has changed His Mind and even though the Sacrifice of Jesus has covered our sins, sins do continue. Jesus does not continue dying.

 

[covenantee]

Im not avoiding your post in distraction "False Claim"!

Scripture teaches the human (Man Of Sin) He, His, Himself, will be revealed to the Church and World in the "Future" as 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 teaches below, whom the Lord will destroy at his "Future" second coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"...he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[WPM]

Isaiah 56:1-8 and Ezekiel 40 to 48, are Prophesies of the time before Jesus Returns. They do not fit in the Millennium. Which is not 'imaginary' at all.

This borders on being libellous.
I would not like to be in your shoes at the Judgment, for how you rudely and nastily accuse your fellow brethren.

As for explaining why God will require sacrifices and offerings again; we do not know the Mind of God. We only know that He wanted them before and that He does not change. Isn't that sufficient for you? Why can't you prove that God has changed His Mind and even though the Sacrifice of Jesus has covered our sins, sins do continue. Jesus does not continue dying.

No, they are not. You dump every OT passage you can get your hands on into this imaginary age that Scripture forbids.

Please address the issues, and stop ducking:

Where do you get this teaching in the New Testament? Why are premillennialist so fixated with taking us back to the old covenant? Do you not know that this has been abolished? Is Jesus Christ not enough for you? Is the cross not enough for you? Was the shedding of his blood not efficacious enough for you?

 

[Truth7t7]

Those "brilliant men" who wrote the KJV said the "Man of Sin" (aka "Whore of Babylon" aka "Little Horn of Daniel" aka "Beast of Revelation 13) is the Papacy. They understood that the symbolic "1,260 days" of Revelation referred to a literal 1,260 years of Papal reign.

How can one "singular man" live 1,260 literal years?

The "Man of Sin" is no more a reference to a singular man than is the "Man of God may be perfect" referring to a singular man, either.

Your claim the papacy over 1260 years represents Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) is "False"!

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[jeffweeder]

Isaiah 56:1-8 and Ezekiel 40 to 48, are Prophesies of the time before Jesus Returns. They do not fit in the Millennium. Which is not 'imaginary' at all.

This borders on being libellous.
I would not like to be in your shoes at the Judgment, for how you rudely and nastily accuse your fellow brethren.

As for explaining why God will require sacrifices and offerings again; we do not know the Mind of God. We only know that He wanted them before and that He does not change. Isn't that sufficient for you? Why can't you prove that God has changed His Mind and even though the Sacrifice of Jesus has covered our sins, sins do continue. Jesus does not continue dying.

Calm down Keraz. WPM is neither rude or nasty. Was Jesus rude and nasty when he called the Pharisees snakes and begotton of the devil? Of course not.
Perhaps you will stand before God in judgment for what you said to me not long ago...remember?
Anyway, I forgive you even though you didn't apologize to me.

Jesus died once, and for all, for eternal forgiveness.
Does v15 below show God changing his mind with a new agreement?

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].

13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?

15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.

 

[Truth7t7]

More avoidance. What human has (or will have) currently got 7 head please? What are these 7 heads then?

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not see you addressing point number 4. Where in Scripture does it show human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3)?

The Beast will be literally inhabited by Satan who ascends out of the bottomless pit, The Beast is the same figure as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (The Son Of Perdition) a literal human man on earth

Revelation 17:8KJV
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 & 9KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not see you addressing point number 4. Where in Scripture does it show human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3)?

I see you haven't addressed Items 2 & 3 below, waiting?

Please give your explanation of how, when, where, these will or have been fulfilled?

1.) A future literal human man Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), John's (The Beast) all the same bad guy known as (The Antichrist)

2.) A future literal 3.5 year tribulation, that starts when this human man is revealed to the world

3.) A future time of the (Two Witnesses) Rev 11:3-15 that will have literal bodies that die, and they will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

 

[WPM]

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

You not only believe like a Dispy, you act like a Dispy. Your MO is avoidance. You have ducked around every response. It is a waste of time engaging with you.

 

[Truth7t7]

Oh, you don't like being called a dispensationlist? Why don't you think about that before you again falsely call me or WPM a partial preterist even though we don't believe, as partial preterists do, that passages like Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are already fulfilled.

You both are "Partial Preterist" a fact, you both believe and teach Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation have been fulfilled, 100% "Partial Preterism" if you believe and teach the second coming is fulfilled also you would be a "Full Preterist", it's that simple

Feel free to call me a dispensationalist all you want, I deny a Pre-Trib Rapture, a Millennial Kingdom on earth, and I believe and teach God's Israel is the Church

 

[Truth7t7]

You not only believe like a Dispy, you act like a Dispy. Your MO is avoidance. You have ducked around every response. It is a waste of time engaging with you.

You asked and were answered with scripture, the seven heads are seven mountains, read it again and again

Your claim that I ducked your response is "False"
Your in a corner just like the pre-tribbers and pre-mills without a biblical argument or answer, now with false claims in a personal attack

Quote WPM Post #4996

More avoidance. What human has (or will have) currently got 7 head please? What are these 7 heads then?

Truth7t7 Responds:

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

[Truth7t7]

You seem to take almost everything literally. Even in highly symbolic books like Daniel and Revelation. So, how was it that you came to understand that the thousand years isn't literal? It seems like a miracle that you were able to recognize that considering that you seemingly are not able to recognize any other symbolism in scripture.

Yes (Thousand Years) in Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic, and the 3 items below will be future and literal

1.) A future literal human man Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), John's (The Beast) all the same bad guy known as (The Antichrist)

2.) A future literal 3.5 year tribulation, that starts when this human man is revealed to the world

3.) A future time of the (Two Witnesses) Rev 11:3-15 that will have literal bodies that die, and they will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

 

[Truth7t7]

No, it isn't that simple. In order for a temple to be considered "the temple of God" it has to be a temple that God Himself would consider His temple. But, that is not the case in this scenario you believe in. It would be a temple of Satan instead since God would not approve of this future temple you believe in, as you have acknowledged yourself.

We Disagree, The Man Of Sin will sit in a future Temple dedicated to the Hebrew God of the Old testament

 

[covenantee]

We Disagree, The Man Of Sin will sit in a future Temple dedicated to the Hebrew God of the Old testament

"...he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Why are you avoiding clear plain evidence?

 

[Truth7t7]

Think about what the beast represents. Revelation 13:8 indicates that literally all whose names are not in the book of life worship the beast. Do you understand how nonsensical it is to think that literally every unbeliever would one day worship one man? That's impossible and unreasonable to think that literally every unbeliever would worship one person.

But, what is it that every unbeliever, whose names are not written in the book of life, does worship? According to scripture, it is this evil world and its anti-Christian ways.

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

What I'm doing here is interpreting scripture with scripture and I know you believe in that approach. So, think about it.

John said the beast "was, and is not and shall ascend from the bottomless pit " in Revelation 17:8. You can't just ignore that. What he meant by that is that the beast was unrestrained in the past before he wrote the book, was restrained at the time he was writing the book and will again be unrestrained at some point in the future. Just like Satan.

The beast is the evil world that hates Christians and that Satan influences to do his bidding. You could think of it as Satan's kingdom as well. It has taken different forms over the years including the evil world empires of the past like the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Look at Daniel 7:23 where a beast is described as a kingdom. In Old Testament times Satan was able to do use the world and its governments and systems to do his bidding unrestrained. Satan being unrestained and the beast being unrestrained go hand in hand. But, in New Testament times Satan and his beast (this evil world) has been bound and restrained from keeping the world in spiritual darkness like in Old Testament times. But, there will be a little season in the future when Satan and the beast are loosed and are unrestrained again before Jesus comes.

You give complete disregard to the fact that (The Beast) is described with personal pronouns, He, His, Him, a literal human man

The Beast will have the unsaved world's allegiance, and he will be a individual human man as scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 13 and 19 as seen below, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him, that will be cast living into the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20

Revelation 13:4-8KJV
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why are you avoiding clear plain evidence?

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.