22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

You are the one claiming animal sacrifices will be introduced in the future yet seem incapable of actually explaining why and what they achieve.

This would be a logical fallacy. Sacrifices are named in Scripture after Jesus returns to the earth. Whether or not anyone on earth understand why God would do this is beside the point. The point is, the Bible says this will be so, though I know you reject the idea. Nonetheless, it's what the Bible says. Zechariah 14 is one place.

Will you acknowledge that someone does not need to explain why God would or would not do something, or have us do something, for that something to be valid?

That no one has to expain why there would be animal sacrifices offered in the kingdom, as some requirement of showing Biblically that these sacrifices will in fact be offered? Can you acknowedge that? I'm not trying trap you in a corner, I'm trying to free you from an invalid argument.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

The point is, the Bible says this will be so

Under the New Covenant, the Bible says this will not be so.

Which covenant has the last word?

The old?

Or the New?

 

[marks]

Under the New Covenant, the Bible says this will not be so.

Which covenant has the last word?

The old?

Or the New?

Are you thinking the NT negates the OT? I don't see it that way myself. All of the Bible is true, and will be shown true throughout eternity.

I'm not saying sacrifices for sin will be offered, but the prophets foretold sacrifices just the same. There were a number of sacrifices to be offered. And besides . . . when Jesus is here ruling this world, it's going to be entirely up to Him if He wants the nations to bring to Israel the food that will be both offered as a gift to Jesus, and to feed the nation of priests.

Zechariah talks about the cooking pots holy to the LORD, that's what that's about. Part of the animal is burnt, and part is boiled for the priests to eat.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

This would be a logical fallacy. Sacrifices are named in Scripture after Jesus returns to the earth. Whether or not anyone on earth understand why God would do this is beside the point. The point is, the Bible says this will be so, though I know you reject the idea. Nonetheless, it's what the Bible says. Zechariah 14 is one place.

Will you acknowledge that someone does not need to explain why God would or would not do something, or have us do something, for that something to be valid?

That no one has to expain why there would be animal sacrifices offered in the kingdom, as some requirement of showing Biblically that these sacrifices will in fact be offered? Can you acknowedge that? I'm not trying trap you in a corner, I'm trying to free you from an invalid argument.

Much love!

Totally wrong! This is exactly what Premil produces. One error produces another error. That is Premil in a nutshell. Zechariah 14 is long-fulfilled. I have showed this many times. The NT demonstrates that the old abolished ceremonial system is gone forever. You have no NT Scripture to show otherwise. Jesus and the new covenant totally superseded this whole arrangement. There is so much clear and repeated Scripture that proves this. Amils believe that Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. He is man's only covering and atonement. The shadow has been overridden by the substance.

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You reject that. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin in some imaginary future millennium. You make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

You fail to see: Calvary completely finished the Old Testament shadow and type. That is why there is no more sacrifice for sin. I find your belief extraordinary. Honestly! This belief should not be allowed on an evangelical site. It is a direct assault upon the cross. It undermines the finished work of Christ. It abrogates the new covenant.

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

You reject that. You say there remains many more offerings for sin in some imaginary future age. You again make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

It is both alarming and sad how many (that sincerely profess Christ) champion the re-starting of rival sin offerings in the future to compete with Calvary when Christ fulfilled and eternally removed them at the cross. Most of this error has emanated from false teaching of men that should know better. The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

John 1:29 records: “John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Hebrews 9:26: "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

1 John 1:7: "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

This is an ongoing effectual covenant that enables man to be forgiven.

Revelation 1:5 tells us that Christ “washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

The Levitical sacrifices could not put away sin. They continued for thousands of years involving innumerable sacrifices, but they did not remove one single sin. But the cross of Christ put away all the sin of God’s redeemed.

Hebrews 8:12 also says about repentant sinners: “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

 

[WPM]

Are you thinking the NT negates the OT? I don't see it that way myself. All of the Bible is true, and will be shown true throughout eternity.

I'm not saying sacrifices for sin will be offered, but the prophets foretold sacrifices just the same. There were a number of sacrifices to be offered. And besides . . . when Jesus is here ruling this world, it's going to be entirely up to Him if He wants the nations to bring to Israel the food that will be both offered as a gift to Jesus, and to feed the nation of priests.

Zechariah talks about the cooking pots holy to the LORD, that's what that's about. Part of the animal is burnt, and part is boiled for the priests to eat.

Much love!

It is near impossible to get Premils to move from their fixation with the old covenant arrangement into the freedom of the new covenant.

The ceremonial law was simply a signpost to Christ. No more. The cross removed this imperfect system. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? After Christ comes there is no need for the typical sacrifices on the new earth? The fulfilment, the reality, the substance, will be in the midst of God's people. The shadow has been long discarded.

Hebrews 10:5-6 tells us, “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.”

There is no room in the plan of God for the return of the imperfect Old Testament sacrifices. Once Christ (the final sacrifice) came and fulfilled His destiny by dying for man’s sin the former was done away. The old has been eternally abolished. God took upon human form. The Son of God being perfect could testify: “a body hast thou prepared me.” That body was perfect and His sacrifice was the sacrifice of sacrifices – the one that ended all the old covenant sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:8-10 confirms: “Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

When Jesus died on the cross He instituted the new covenant which allowed the believer to access God directly. No longer would the bulk of God’s people be excluded from the presence of the Lord by a veil. No longer did they need an earthly priest to represent them before God. They were now free to approach Him personally by simple faith. Christ removed the partition between God and His people when He laid down His life for our sins. He became man’s final high priest.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).

 

[covenantee]

Are you thinking the NT negates the OT? I don't see it that way myself. All of the Bible is true, and will be shown true throughout eternity.

I'm not saying sacrifices for sin will be offered, but the prophets foretold sacrifices just the same. There were a number of sacrifices to be offered. And besides . . . when Jesus is here ruling this world, it's going to be entirely up to Him if He wants the nations to bring to Israel the food that will be both offered as a gift to Jesus, and to feed the nation of priests.

Zechariah talks about the cooking pots holy to the LORD, that's what that's about. Part of the animal is burnt, and part is boiled for the priests to eat.

Much love!

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The New Testament (which is a Will and Testament) came into force upon the death of its Divine Testator, Jesus Christ.

Inherent in the jurisprudent characteristics of a will and testament is the stipulation that a new will and testament replaces an old will and testament in its entirety. You can see this in the first clause of your own will and testament, which states that you are revoking any previous will and testament. There can be only one will and testament in force at any time.

Thus whatever was said in the Old Testament regarding sacrifices, is now eclipsed, transcended, and superseded by what the New Testament says regarding sacrifices.

And the New Testament is clear and unequivocal in its declarations regarding sacrifices, and the One Final Sacrifice. You can review the many inspirational posts from WPM for the Scriptural details.

Much love in return!

 

[marks]

Totally wrong! This is exactly what Premil produces. One error produces another error. That is Premil in a nutshell. Zechariah 14 is long-fulfilled. I have showed this many times.

Zechariah 14:1-4 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

History would most likely show something like this having happened, wouldn't you think? Or some geological evidence?

Zechariah 14:7-8 KJV
7) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Yes? New Rivers?

I'm guessing you will answer that these were fulfilled without actually happening, rather, in some allegorical way?

Am I right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You should read my posts more carefully. This isn't disputed. There were a variety of sacrifices that were offered, not just the sin offering.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun come up today?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes you believe Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD & Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation took place in 66-70AD Jerusalem, just as reformed preterist eschatology teaches

So what? Just because I agree with that one thing they believe makes me one of them? Give me a break. No, it does not.

You move to hide this fact by quoting the second coming seen in Matthew 24:29-30

I'm not hiding anything. I have given my interpretation of Matthew 24:15-22 many times and I have nothing to hide. It's the preterists and the futurists like you who are wrong in thinking that the entire Olivet Discourse is either all fulfilled in the past or will be all fulfilled in the future. That is not the case.

If the preterist reformed eschatology shoe fits wear it proudly, don't distract from your true teachings and belief

I've had about enough of your insults. So, you want me to agree with them that all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD and that all of Revelation up to at least Revelation 19 is fulfilled? Because that's what they believe. But, I don't. So, stop talking about this preterist reformed eschatology nonsense because it doesn't apply to me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your preaching to the Choir, yes Jesus abolished the old covenant

Your response is establishing the fact Jesus has replaced the old, "I agree" a no brainer, your words are a complete distraction from what is seen in Isaiah 66:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

You aren't going to remove the words of scripture below that clearly shows a future temple, and the future delusion God will send

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" only two places in my KJV Holy Bible is the word "Delusion" used, both are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 2:4 references "the temple of God". Didn't you say that this temple you believe will be built would not be one that would approve of? How could it be something Paul would call "the temple of God" then? That's impossible. But, what did Paul call the temple of the God in other scripture? He said it is us. The church. Why are you not letting scripture interpret scripture in this case? As for Isaiah 66:1-4 it says nothing whatsoever about a future temple being built in Jerusalem. To use that passage to support your argument shows just how weak your argument is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, we've each said our bit.

And one of us supported "our bit" with scripture while the other one didn't. I'm sure everyone here can see that.

I differentiate mortals who live in the Age of the Kingdom from those who become immortal and inherit the Kingdom during that time.

Where does scripture do this? Why should I take you seriously if you can't provide any scripture to back up your beliefs?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new Temple is unfulfilled, but the delusion is now, shown in the confused and errant posts here.

You have proven to be delusional in your belief that some useless temple built in the future could possibly be considered "the temple of God". It would be more like the temple of Satan if such a temple is actually built. It certainly wouldn't be a temple that Paul or John would have called "the temple of God".

 

[WPM]

You should read my posts more carefully. This isn't disputed. There were a variety of sacrifices that were offered, not just the sin offering.

Much love!

Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Colossians 2:16-17 tells us: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning feast or festival. Of 27 mentions of this word in the normally precise KJV, it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard interprets: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 finally sums up the sums up the biblical position today: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Christianity took us away from the old Mosaic ceremonial law completely. Those who argue for a return to the old system fail to see that it has been rendered obsolete through the new covenant.

Hebrews 7:18-19 makes clear: “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

This word “disannulling” is taken from the Greek word athetesis meaning cancellation.

The phrase “weakness and unprofitableness” used here to describe the old abolished system actually reads asthenes kai anopheles literally meaning: feeble and impotent useless and unprofitable.

It is hard to believe that you would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.

 

[WPM]

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun come up today?

Much love!

This is speaking about true Israel. It is not talking about all Jews. Premillennialists are focused on the wrong Israel. Regardless of the disobedience, regardless of the schemes of Satan, there is a remnant of Jews of the seed of Israel which shall not cease from being a nation. They belong to spiritual Israel God's holy nation, a peculiar people (1 Peter 2:9). God's nation is a spiritual nation, not a physical nation that overwhelmingly rejects Jesus.

 

[marks]

It is hard to believe that you would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.

I'm the guy suggesting we believe all the Scriptures, including where God made some very solid promises to His chosen nation Israel.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Greek Word ναός naós, nah-os'; is uses 45 times in the KJV representing a physical, literal temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The human body filled by God the Holy Spirit is the temple of God, and the "Man Of Sin" won't be dwelling in a Spiritual Temple of God's Church as you falsely suggest

That seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is future literal, not spiritual as you believe and teach

Strong’s Definitions
ναός naós, nah-os'; from a primary ναίω naíō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple:—shrine, temple. Compare G2411.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 46x
The KJV translates Strong's G3485 in the following manner: temple (45x), a shrine (1x).

That verse (2 Thess 2:4) is not talking about an individual man of sin, but rather sinful mankind in general.

Do you think the following is talking about an individual man of God?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is obviously not talking about an individual man of God, but rather about godly people in general. The "man of sin" should be understood similarly. There is no future physical temple that could possibly be something Paul would call "the temple of God" that some individual man of sin would sit in. We (the church) are the temple of God (2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:19-22).

Remember, Paul also talked about a mass falling away from the faith before the return of Christ. The man of sin is related directly to that. It's people in the church falling away from the faith while deciding that they don't need God anymore. That, in effect, makes each of them their own God. That is what Paul is talking about in 2 Thess 2.

It's strange for me to have to say this to an Amil, but you need to learn to differentiate between literal and figurative text.

 

[marks]

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Have you considered that the Law is a single unit? There isn't a "ceremonial law" that is somehow separate from a "moral law" that is somehow separate from a "civil law". They are the commandments of God. You have no authority to subdivide God's Law. James wrote that if you break one law you are a lawbreaker, that's that.

Jesus spoke of "the least of these commandments", and He did not come to abolish the Law, not one jot or tittle, not the smallest marking in teh text is to be abolished until . . . Curiously . . . all be fulfilled.

Much love!

 

[marks]

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur?

You may want to study this a little more, and check out the meaning of cheirographon, handwriting.

Philemon 1:18-19 KJV
18) If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
19) I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

Colossian 2:14 NASB
14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

At the Egyptian city Oxyrhyncus, in the landfill, they've been collection old parchments from early church times, where the "cheirographon" referred to the hand-written promisory notes used in that day. You would write in your own handwriting that you acknowledge the debt and your promise to pay. This was what was blotted clean. Sins forgiven.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is speaking about true Israel. It is not talking about all Jews.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

How much more specific could God be about who He was speaking concerning?

Much love!