22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

According to you, not Scripture.

@Truth7t7 @Keraz

Meditate on Zechariah 14.

 

[Truth7t7]

@Truth7t7 @Keraz

Meditate on Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom!

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Zao is life]

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20.

Hope you forgive me for saying so but I see teapot and kettle written all over that statement. Revelation 20 just happens to be the only text that talks about a millennium period, period (pun intended) . Amil uses tons of scripture in support of the belief that it's symbolic, and Premil the same, in support of the belief that it's literal.

For someone who claims Premil is totally preoccupied with one portion of scripture, have you considered the length of your own first post?

 

[WPM]

Hope you forgive me for saying so but I see teapot and kettle written all over that statement. Revelation 20 just happens to be the only text that talks about a millennium period, period (pun intended) . Amil uses tons of scripture in support of the belief that it's symbolic, and Premil the same, in support of the belief that it's literal.

For someone who claims Premil is totally preoccupied with one portion of scripture, have you considered the length of your own first post?

Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Zao is life]

Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration.

So is Premil. Making statements like that doesn't help support your case at all. All you did in your reply to me was make a list of statements that are actually opinions about scriptures you quote, rather than fact.

Some of those statements you make in that long list are false, based on your own opinions. @WPM Some are true, some are false.

@WPM That's a nasty, muddy mixture that Amillennialism is plagued with.

 

[Truther]

You seem to think you are smarter than these experts. Not so!

No, just standing back and watching the relentless assault on the Bible by satan.

 

[Truther]

What is the Greek word for shepherd or shepherding in the original Greek?

I don't speak Greek.

What does your modern redefinitionist say?

 

[Truther]

Who then, other than yourself, has the truth? :)

The KJV.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you continue to talk about a "Curse" post God's words and not yours

I have been posting the Scriptures.

Gen 8.24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”

Jude 1.16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

 

[WPM]

So is Premil. Making statements like that doesn't help support your case at all. All you did in your reply to me was make a list of statements that are actually opinions about scriptures you quote, rather than fact.

Some of those statements you make in that long list are false, based on your own opinions. @WPM Some are true, some are false.

@WPM That's a nasty, muddy mixture that Amillennialism is plagued with.

Not so. You cannot even identify one error. You just voice your opinions. Identify what is supposedly in error.

 

[Truther]

Where does it mention a millennium or a thousand years here as you claim? Nowhere. You add it unto Scripture.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

Zech 14 clearly calls the saving of Jerusalem and settling down the kingdom on earth "a day" or "the day" of the Lord.

Settled easily.

Now, here, 6 times in a sister passage it is described exactly how long this will be....


20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired,


....now, is the Millenial reign as also depicted in Zech 14(at the return of Christ with his saints), 1000 years, 2000 years, 1 million years or one billion years?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh that's it, Jesus returns and National Israel receives his Kingdom and favor, "Sure"

Hey National Israel Here Comes Jesus, all you Murderers, Adulterers, Fornicators, Liars, And Cheats go change your clothes, we have priestly garments ready for you, it's National Repentance Day, Real Big Smiles!

Episode 2 next week, Life in God's selective Kingdom, written by Randy Kluth

Matt 11.18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Matt 22.8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

 

[Zao is life]

Not so. You cannot even identify one error. You just voice your opinions. Identify what is supposedly in error.

Identify which verse or passage of scripture in your long list you would like me to identify.

Bite by bite. I don't do olam dissertation by olam dissertation.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm {o-lawm'} o-lawm'
From H5956; properly {concealed} that {is} the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or {future}) that {is} (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always ({-s}) ancient ({time}) any {more} {continuance} {eternal} ({for} [n-]) ever ({-lasting} {-more} of {old}) {lasting} long ({time}) (of) old ({time}) {perpetual} at any {time} (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare {H5331} H5703.

 

[Zao is life]

@WPM By the way it's nice to see you here, new name and all.

@WPM Anyway I'll stay off your case now. We both know that it's pointless me even doing one long, long post in answer to each point in your long, long posts, because we both know that you won't read it anyway (like has always happened in the past), and you won't address anything that you needed to respond to, but will just make another long, long post full of monologue statements.

But even so, I'm glad to see you here.

 

[Truther]

Identify which verse or passage of scripture in your long list you would like me to identify.

Bite by bite. I don't do olam dissertation by olam dissertation.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm {o-lawm'} o-lawm'
From H5956; properly {concealed} that {is} the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or {future}) that {is} (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always ({-s}) ancient ({time}) any {more} {continuance} {eternal} ({for} [n-]) ever ({-lasting} {-more} of {old}) {lasting} long ({time}) (of) old ({time}) {perpetual} at any {time} (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare {H5331} H5703.

Where did Strong(an HONORARY linguist PHD) get all of these redefinitions that debunk the 50 translators of the KJV?

He must be the smartest guy that ever lived, as he lived 300 years after the 50.

Wow, smart enough to get you to debunk your own Bible and to become a micro translator.

 

[Zao is life]

Where did Strong(an HONORARY linguist PHD) get all of these redefinitions that debunk the 50 translators of the KJV?

He must be the smartest guy that ever lived, as he lived 300 years after the 50.

Wow, smart enough to get you to debunk your own Bible and to become a micro translator.

.. and smart enough to get you all worked up over nothing.

 

[WPM]

@WPM By the way it's nice to see you here, new name and all.

@WPM Anyway I'll stay off your case now. We both know that it's pointless me even doing one long, long post in answer to each point in your long, long posts, because we both know that you won't read it anyway (like has always happened in the past), and you won't address anything that you needed to respond to, but will just make another long, long post full of monologue statements.

But even so, I'm glad to see you here.

Not so. The opposite is the truth. You have a major issue with addressing rebuttals. This is another case in point.

 

[covenantee]

The KJV.

That's not what the KJV translators themselves asserted. From the preface to the 1611 KJV, emphases mine:

Now to answer our enemies: we do not deny, rather we affirm and insist that the very worst translation of the Bible in English issued by Protestants (for we have seen no Catholic version of the whole Bible as yet) contains the word of God, or rather, is the word of God.

 

[covenantee]

Where did Strong(an HONORARY linguist PHD)

Link?

Otherwise, bunk.

 

[jeffweeder]

I see nothing "unscriptural" about this. Maybe you're doing the "assuming," assuming it to not be true when that is exactly what the Scripture says?

You told me that you were assuming, in answer to what I said here...,

[How do those of this future millennium own it Randy?
It cannot be by faith in the glory they already see in a future millennium.]

Though there is very little, if anything on it, I have to assume it is by the same process by which we obtain the Kingdom today.

It cannot be by the same process as Jesus is seen in all his glory when he comes again.



[ Randy said] On the contrary, everybody in Israel saw Jesus at his 1st Coming, and they certainly did not inherit his glory. ]

.

Thats right, because Jesus wasnt revealed in all his glory at his first coming. This gave room for exercising saving faith.:) Today is the day of salvation and Jesus could come tomorrow if you know what I mean.
When he appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.



The second coming of Jesus is very different. He comes in all the glory of the Father. Only the saved can see this event of the ages and live.

Heb 12
25 See to it that you do not refuse [to listen to] Him who is speaking [to you now]. For if those [sons of Israel] did not escape when they refused [to listen to] him who warned them on earth [revealing God’s will], how much less will we escape if we turn our backs on Him who warns from heaven?

26 His voice shook the earth [at Mount Sinai] then, but now He has given a promise, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the [starry] heaven.” 27 Now this [expression], “Yet once more,” indicates the removal and final transformation of all those things which can be shaken—that is, of that which has been created—so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, and offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is [indeed] a consuming fire.