22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Randy Kluth]

You say that people with mortal flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God. Scripture says mortal "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Good point. I don't believe mortals born or living during the Millennial Period are actually "inheriting" that Kingdom either. Those who are glorified and who reign in that Kingdom have inherited it--that's the resurrected and glorified Church.

Those people who live during the Millennium do benefit from the peace of that Kingdom and from the opportunities it presents. But "inheriting" it is a matter of being glorified and made able to own it forever.

I consider that a legitimate non-snarky question. Thank you.

 

[Truth7t7]

What about murder, a far worse sin. If you commit murder, you die a murderer. Does Christ forgive that?

Did King David and Paul the Apostle die murderers?

 

[Truth7t7]

Good point. I don't believe mortals born or living during the Millennial Period are actually "inheriting" that Kingdom either. Those who are glorified and who reign in that Kingdom have inherited it--that's the resurrected and glorified Church.

Those people who live during the Millennium do benefit from the peace of that Kingdom and from the opportunities it presents. But "inheriting" it is a matter of being glorified and made able to own it forever.

I consider that a legitimate non-snarky question. Thank you.

A Kingdom on this earth with glorified bodies and mortal bodies hanging out together, as Jesus sits on a throne as funeral director for those mortals dying around him

Big Smiles!

 

[covenantee]

Did King David and Paul the Apostle die murderers?

They died forgiven murderers.

 

[jeffweeder]

But "inheriting" it is a matter of being glorified and made able to own it forever.

How do those of this future millennium own it Randy?
It cannot be by faith in the glory they already see in a future millennium.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How do those of this future millennium own it Randy?
It cannot be by faith in the glory they already see in a future millennium.

Though there is very little, if anything on it, I have to assume it is by the same process by which we obtain the Kingdom today. People put their faith in Christ, are converted, and in the end are made immortal. They obtain with Christ eternal life. And that is inheriting the Kingdom.

The Kingdom comes to earth at Christ's 2nd Coming. It is a reign that is established upon the earth to fulfill all of God's promises to Abraham.

The Kingdom begins on earth during the Millennium. But it is fully inherited only at the end of the Millennium when all causes of sin are removed, and all the saints are made immortal.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A Kingdom on this earth with glorified bodies and mortal bodies hanging out together, as Jesus sits on a throne as funeral director for those mortals dying around him

Big Smiles!

Yea, I don't believe the glorified, resurrected Church is on earth during the Millennium, living together with mortals. It sounds crazy to me too.

I believe the glorified Church comes back with Jesus at the 2nd Coming only to establish Christ's reign upon the earth--not to remain here for a thousand years. We will reign with Christ from heaven until the thousand years are over. Then we will descend with the New Jerusalem at the end of this period.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Gods words have judged Kurt Aland, Randy's Preference Doesn't Matter

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Remember what happened when Noah's son caught Noah drunk in his tent. He thought he could play "gotcha" with a saint. He may have even thought he was on the right side with God.

But what did God do? He caused that part of the family to be cursed because they were critical, accusing, fault-finding people--nothing like the saints. Many, many saints in history have black marks in their lives. God forgave them. Do you really want to bring up moral failures when God has already forgiven them?

 

[dad]

Satan sets up the AoD after the 42 months has already started 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

Baloney. You made that up.

There is no 7 years.

You might as well say 'there are no alps'. The last week of history not only will exist, but is very important.

In the midst of the week of days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

Confused and mixed up mischievous word mulch.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Jesus is on earth with His angels during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

No.
Why would some angel step one foot on the earth and one on the sea to yell in a loud voice that time was up if Jesus had ALREADY returned!!?

Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

But no where does it claim they last for 3.5 years prior to the 42 months of the AoD that starts while the 7th Trumpet is sounding for 7 days.

Nothing sounds for seven days you made that up. The abomination of desolation starts the Great Tribulation, it does not exist for years before it starts!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Only after we see that abomination stand in the holy place will the Tribulation start.

Those days keep getting shorter the longer the 6th Seal is withheld for the fullness of the Gentiles, the sake of the elect.

More confused utterances. Explain what that is supposed to mean?

So there cannot be a defined 7 year period, as the length keeps changing.

Ha. It might help if you stopped making stuff up. I would suggest the milk of the word. Your attempts at trying to chew on the meaty parts have ended badly.

 

[jeffweeder]

Though there is very little, if anything on it, I have to assume it is by the same process by which we obtain the Kingdom today.

Unscriptural assumption is what that is Brother.
Faith in what we do not see.... together with a healthy dose of sanctification through his glorious Holy Spirit has been Gods will from the beginning...,


2thess 2
13 But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity]. 14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This renders a future millennial Kingdom completely untenable when every eye will see Jesus return at his glorious second coming.
The door is slammed shut...,


Matt 25
10 But while they were going away to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut and locked. 11 Later the others also came, and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open [the door] for us.’ 12 But He replied, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, I do not know you [we have no relationship].’ 13 Therefore, be on the alert [be prepared and ready], for you do not know the day nor the hour [when the Son of Man will come].

 

[Truth7t7]

Though there is very little, if anything on it, I have to assume it is by the same process by which we obtain the Kingdom today. People put their faith in Christ, are converted, and in the end are made immortal. They obtain with Christ eternal life. And that is inheriting the Kingdom.

The Kingdom comes to earth at Christ's 2nd Coming. It is a reign that is established upon the earth to fulfill all of God's promises to Abraham.

The Kingdom begins on earth during the Millennium. But it is fully inherited only at the end of the Millennium when all causes of sin are removed, and all the saints are made immortal.

Fact, there is nothing on it because it's found no place in scripture, it's non-existant

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairy tale

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Truth7t7]

Remember what happened when Noah's son caught Noah drunk in his tent. He thought he could play "gotcha" with a saint. He may have even thought he was on the right side with God.

But what did God do? He caused that part of the family to be cursed because they were critical, accusing, fault-finding people--nothing like the saints. Many, many saints in history have black marks in their lives. God forgave them. Do you really want to bring up moral failures when God has already forgiven them?

Can't forgive the sin of Adultery when one takes their last breath and dies in it

Kurt Aland "DIED" being married to a woman (Barbara Nee Ehlers) who wasn't his wife, while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived (Adultery)

You can make all the claims you want Randy, God's word defies your teaching and belief

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can't forgive the sin of Adultery when one takes their last breath and dies in it

Kurt Aland "DIED" being married to a woman (Barbara Nee Ehlers) who wasn't his wife, while his wife (Ingebirg Aland) lived (Adultery)

You can make all the claims you want Randy, God's word defies your teaching and belief

David died being married to Bathsheba. I don't put you under a curse. But you put yourself under a curse when you become judge, jury, and executioner, particularly when you aren't perfect either.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yea, I don't believe the glorified, resurrected Church is on earth during the Millennium, living together with mortals. It sounds crazy to me too.

I believe the glorified Church comes back with Jesus as the 2nd Coming only to establish Christ's reign upon the earth--not to remain here for a thousand years. We will reign with Christ from heaven until the thousand years are over. Then we will descend with the New Jerusalem at the end of this period.

Sounds crazy because it is, found no place in scripture

Randy has many dreams, desires, and wants, nothing wrong with imagination and fantasy, Steven Spielberg made a fortune with his, you would make a good screen writer

 

[Randy Kluth]

Unscriptural assumption is what that is Brother.
Faith in what we do not see.... together with a healthy dose of sanctification through his glorious Holy Spirit has been Gods will from the beginning...,

The thing we do not see is the New Jerusalem, which does not come down out of heaven until after the thousand years. Faith remains in Christ, who is still in heaven during that period. The glorified saints don't come to reside on earth until the end of the thousand years, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to finally land on the earth forever.

I see nothing "unscriptural" about this. Maybe you're doing the "assuming," assuming it to not be true when that is exactly what the Scripture says?

On the contrary, everybody in Israel saw Jesus at his 1st Coming, and they certainly did not inherit his glory. Israel will see him inparticular because they come, at that time, into a period of national repentance. It doesn't mean they inherit his glory--only that they, as a nation, embrace his Kingdom. Obtaining his glory will be an individual thing, just as it is today.

In other words, I'm not advocating for something new, but for something continuing at that time just as it is today. The only change will be that Satan is bound so that God's promises can be fulfilled on earth with respect to peace on earth and the establishment of many Christian nations. That is precisely what the promises were, and precisely what we are told will happen.

 

[Truth7t7]

David died being married to Bathsheba. I don't put you under a curse. But you put yourself under a curse when you become judge, jury, and executioner, particularly when you aren't perfect either.

David was forgiven of his murder and adultery

David died being married to Bathsheba "after" her husband was dead, no more Adultery was seen

David died a repentant Murderer, read the Psalm

The curse you mention, where is it?

Randy's suggested harm isn't going to silence the truth

 

[Truth7t7]

The thing we do not see is the New Jerusalem, which does not come down out of heaven until after the thousand years. Faith remains in Christ, who is still in heaven during that period. The glorified saints don't come to reside on earth until the end of the thousand years, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to finally land on the earth forever.

I see nothing "unscriptural" about this. Maybe you're doing the "assuming," assuming it to not be true when that is exactly what the Scripture says?

On the contrary, everybody in Israel saw Jesus at his 1st Coming, and they certainly did not inherit his glory. Israel will see him inparticular because they come, at that time, into a period of national repentance. It doesn't mean they inherit his glory--only that they, as a nation, embrace his Kingdom. Obtaining his glory will be an individual thing, just as it is today.

In other words, I'm not advocating for something new, but for something continuing at that time just as it is today. The only change will be that Satan is bound so that God's promises can be fulfilled on earth with respect to peace on earth and the establishment of many Christian nations. That is precisely what the promises were, and precisely what we are told will happen.

Oh that's it, Jesus returns and National Israel receives his Kingdom and favor, "Sure"

Hey National Israel Here Comes Jesus, all you Murderers, Adulterers, Fornicators, Liars, And Cheats go change your clothes, we have priestly garments ready for you, it's National Repentance Day, Real Big Smiles!

Episode 2 next week, Life in God's selective Kingdom, written by Randy Kluth

 

[Randy Kluth]

David was forgiven of his murder and adultery

David died being married to Bathsheba "after" her husband was dead, no more Adultery was seen

David died a repentant Murderer, read the Psalm

The curse you mention, where is it?

Randy's suggested harm isn't going to silence the truth

I'm not here to condemn you, but to warn you as a brother. A poisonous, condemnatory spirit is in fact under a curse from God. He is not pleased with fault-finders. He is certainly pleased with those who hold to His highest standards. But God always found a place to offer grace to those in need of forgiveness. We would do well to always show that kind of spirit.

I only mention it because you are casting aside a man's lifetime work--a work that is recognized around the world, in the name of personal indiscretions. I just don't believe that's a noble approach to it. Explore his work to find whether it has value--don't just discard it because he's morally unacceptable to you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not here to condemn you, but to warn you as a brother. A poisonous, condemnatory spirit is in fact under a curse from God. He is not pleased with fault-finders. He is certainly pleased with those who hold to His highest standards. But God always found a place to offer grace to those in need of forgiveness. We would do well to always show that kind of spirit.

I only mention it because you are casting aside a man's lifetime work--a work that is recognized around the world, in the name of personal indiscretions. I just don't believe that's a noble approach to it. Explore his work to find whether it has value--don't just discard it because he's morally unacceptable to you.

Randy you continue to talk about a "Curse" post God's words and not yours

Gods words have judged Kurt Aland, Randy's Preference Doesn't Matter

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[covenantee]

Randy you continue to talk about a "Curse" post God's words and not yours

Gods words have judged Kurt Aland, Randy's Preference Doesn't Matter

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hebrews 13:4KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Mark 10:11-12KJV
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The Apostle Paul died as a forgiven murderer.

Kurt Aland et al died as forgiven adulterers.