Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Yet that was your premise: One could be forgiven as long as the spouse was dead.
Perhaps that is not what you intended. That is how your post is read though.
22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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Perhaps that is not what you intended. That is how your post is read though.
Truth7t7
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When you can find Matthew 17:21, 18:11, Acts 8:37, Roman's 16:24 in the NIV I will be a believer"Your suggestion on reading a specific version to obtain salvation is way off base".
Thanks for the guffaw. Can you understand plain English? Do you know what "e.g." means?
The KJV was not released until 1611, so obviously nobody "obtained salvation" before then.
From the preface to the KJV by its translators, who would characterize you as an adversary:
An Answer to the Imputations of Our Adversaries
Now to the latter we answer; that we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God.
That would include the NIV and every other recognized translation.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
That would include the NIV and every other recognized translation.
Stop denigrating the variants of God's Word through which multitudes have experienced salvation in Christ over many years.
Errors in the King James Version – The Superior Word
The NIV is a "Counterfeit"
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@WPM
You think Zechariah 14 is talking about the New Heavens and New Earth? Well, let's take a closer look.
Zechariah 14:6-7
6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
The verses above constitute an apparent contradiction, which needs an explanation. Verse 6 says there will be no light. Verse 7 says there will be light. Which is it? In my view, verse 6 is understood to mean, "The light coming from luminaries will dwindle," which indicates that the light doesn't go out in an instant; it diminishes slowly over time. Verse 7 indicates that the earth will witness a new and different source of light, which will not only shine during the day, it will shine during the night, thus eliminating the distinction between night and day. The luminaries grow less in intensity gradually as the new source of light replaces it.
This does NOT describe an instantaneous climactic end of history. It describes a process that takes place gradually over time.
Zechariah 14:10-11
10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
Whenever a prophet describes a situation or condition in great detail, we understand his words literally. This is not symbolic language. He describes a condition that will exist after the Lord returns. On the one hand, at the end of history, when earth and heaven have fled away, there will no longer be a Geba or a Rimmon, or a Tower of Hananel or any other thing mentioned in the text above. On the other hand, Zechariah describes how certain places on this present earth have changed, indicating that the present earth exists even after the second coming.
Truth7t7
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You forgot the river of life is flowing in Zechariah 14:8, it's eternal, in the eternal kingdom :)
Zechariah 14:8KJV
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In the Bible the phrase "living waters" refers to fresh water. In other words "living water" is water that sustains life as opposed to water that is unfit to drink. For this reason, Revelation 22 may, or may not refer to Zechariah 14.
I am not sure why you mentioned me at the start. Truth7t7 and me do agree on this. Truth7t7 is not a typical Amil. His position is more akin to Dispensationalism at times. So, what he presents should not represent anyone but himself.
Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no likeness.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”
Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst
This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.
There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.
The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."
The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."
A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:
idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you
When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.
In the New Testament:
Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:
Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).
Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).
In the Greek LXX Septuagint
Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:
Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)
Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)
We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.
One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.
One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.
Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.
That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.
Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.
Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.
Sola scriptura via the KJV.
Get rid of your commentary entirely and clear the fault codes.
Having 50 ancient translators coming together, electing words and verses from an ancient language is superstition?
It sounds like logic to me.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Two different Jerusalems and two different rivers. The one in Zechariah 14 has two branches. The one in Revelation that comes out of the New Jerusalem is too big to even fit in the narrow band of land we know as current Israel.
There you go again: more false charges. You cannot seem to help your self. That is your MO. This is my study, as are all my posts. You just have no answer to it.
You say you do not "appreciate it when I do this." Do what? Present hard facts that refute Premil. No wonder: it exposes your claims.
That is one way to duck around post after post. These type of tactics are why so many are abandoning Premil in droves.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The point is that Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives, destroying the attack on Jerusalem and totally changing the geographical landscape of the whole area.
So Jesus was not born of a virgin and did not grow up in the first century? Are you saying Jesus showed up on the mount of Olives and did what Zechariah 14 claims in 30AD? Thus we have been in the Day of the Lord for 1992 years?
Revelation 20 is not about the Second Coming any where in the text. Revelation 20 is about the length of the Day of the Lord after the Second Coming. It is about Satan being bound in the pit. It is about ruling on earth from the camp of the saints.
Zechariah 14 describes more about the nature of the day than is mentioned in Revelation 20. But that day comes bringing climactic and drastic changes. Just as Peter describes the coming of the day of the Lord. In the first century, Jesus left from the mount of Olives, and promised to return. Jesus did not burn up the entire works of man, and rescue Jerusalem from destruction of outside forces. Jesus did not set up a physical kingdom, where there was no longer night. But to say that Zechariah 14 happened in the first century, and apply some spiritual meaning does not make sense. Jesus was born, grew up, and died in the first century. He did not fulfill Zechariah 14. In fact, God did not rescue Jerusalem in the first century, as it was destroyed and uninhabited for hundreds of years. The exact opposite of Zechariah 14 happened.
Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”
There are strong grounds for relating this to the great victory that was wrought through Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. In keeping with the consistent pattern of the book of Zechariah this would seem to be a first Advent passage. It describes the benefits or “spoil” of which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. Christ rescued many from the firm grip of Satan. The devil was stripped of his influence in the lives of millions of sinners. The spoil in Scripture normally referred to the trophies or reward of victory. This must surely refer to the elect that Christ secured through His comprehensive earthly mission.
1 Chronicles 26:27 tells us: “Out of the spoils won in battles did they dedicate to maintain the house of the LORD.”
Are we not the Lord’s spoil from the enemy’s territory? Whilst the Old Testament temple was literal and physical and was so suitably adorned after battle, the New Testament temple is living and spiritual. We are now the spoil of battle – taken from the devil’s dark domain through the shed blood of Jesus at the cross.
Isaiah 53:10-12 confirms this is speaking of Calvary, when he prophesied of Christ’s first Advent and especially Calvary, “it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Here we have further confirmation linking the securing of the spoil with the accomplishment of His redemptive work. His redeeming of the elect is presented here as evidence that He had divided the spoil. It reads: “he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death.”
Isaiah 9:2-6 says of the Gospel going out during the intra-Advent period, and the authority and blessings that now is now bestowed in Gentiles through the victory wrought at Cavalry: “The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the
they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting father, the prince of peace.”The spiritual light enveloping the darkened Gentiles through the earthly ministry Of Christ is here associated with the dividing of the spoil. This would seem to support the idea that the spoil is those who were being liberated from the enemy’s prison. Countless devotees of Satan would be released through the victorious advance of the Gospel through the once-deceived nations (ethnos).
Christ confirms the meaning of these Old Testament prophecies in Luke 11, when He alludes to Zechariah 14, whilst speaking of His own assault upon Satan and his dark kingdom. Jesus said, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man (Satan) armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him (namely Jesus), he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).
This is speaking of Christ’s victory over Satan through His victorious life, death and resurrection and the great “spoil” which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. Christ’ earthly ministry and the introduction of the kingdom of heaven on earth began heaven’s great assault upon Satan and his kingdom. This short period saw the spoiling of the devil’s goods and the disarming of devil’s enormous remit of influence. At every point Satan was decisively defeated on his own territory. The victory was finally secured with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. This opened up the Gospel opportunity to the Gentiles. Jesus also said in Mark 3:27 “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”
Calvary was the place where Satan was bound. This resulted in the spoiling of his goods, the liberating of the prisoner and the enlightenment of the darkened nations. The territory that Satan once exclusively controlled has now been massively invaded by the Lord's subjects and His Kingdom. Those that were once in total darkness can now see. Every enemy of heaven has been finally and completely defeated. All we are therefore waiting for is for the final put down. This occurs at the second coming. Colossians 2:14 explains how Calvary saw the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
The phrase having spoiled is taken from the Greek word apekduomai meaning divested or disarmed. Christ disarmed the demonic realm during His ministry and particularly through the finished work of the Cross. Since Calvary, Satan’s kingdom has been restricted from their previous unchallenged global control – Christ “triumphing over them in it.” New King James Version renders it, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Satan was exposed time after time as Christ and His disciples defeated the minions of hell with the authority of heaven. The Gospel was now free to invade the once-darkened Gentile nations. Not that every single Gentile would believe, but that the nations would now be free to receive the Gospel.
Fake Greek redefinitions from your buddy.
Another dummy assertion is "Easter", which fake Greekists think that the 400 year old word meant "pagan rite".
It mean "1st century Christian pasha feast" to the translators of the KJV.
Stop watching fake news.
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