22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[farouk]

Lol, okay I can see it now. @Truth7t7 if you go to the list of threads in this forum it shows you how many views xx

@Rita As regards Premil, etc., I think a compelling verse is 1 Corinthians 11.26, where clearly it's the church that is linked to a particular aspect of the Lord's coming, i.e., the rapture. Other, rather different verses and passages show other emphases, often.

I hope you guys are settling peacefully now after the family funeral recently.

 

[WPM]

If satan has been bound, has God started the wars resulting in hundreds of millions of deaths in the last 2000 years?

Or, is man loosed and satan bound?

Few Christians have any difficulty grasping the metaphorical nature of chains and imprisonment when attributed to the wicked. What is more they freely accept that they can freely move and function on planet earth. They see no desire to attribute this merely to convicts that have behind bars or to a literal penitentiary. They can see the spiritual thrust. They can see the symbolism. They easily grasp the metaphorical picture depicting the restrictive nature sin has on sinners. Scripture uses the exactly same symbolism and metaphors when speaking of Satan and his minions since the First Advent. It shows Christ as binding the strongman. The word used in the New Testament whether it is in Matthew 12:28-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27 or Revelation 20 is deo – meaning to be in chains. This ability to restrain the kingdom of darkness is also delegated to the Church of Jesus Christ through the preaching of God's Word.

The defeat of Satan and the enlightenment of the Gentiles is carefully connected to the preaching of the Word.

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

 

[Truth7t7]

You, must not have read this....

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



7 And when the thousand years are expired,

Please read and respond to post #4281, I have clearly explained your question there

 

[WPM]

I teach it is laced with very few symbols and it is 99% literal.

I don't teach the Bible is metaphoric.

It has many metaphors.

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
Do you believe Satan has 7 literal heads and 7 literal necks (Revelation 12:3)?
Do you believe Satan has 10 literal horns poking out of his 7 literal heads (Revelation 12:3)?

 

[WPM]

A lie.

That might explain why you are confused on this matter. No lie is off the truth!

 

[Truth7t7]

Modern linguists have duped us into saying our Bible is metaphoric.

Even to the point that it DOES NOT mean a mighty fortress is our God.

It teaches that there is no spiritual application.

It teaches there is no spiritual fortress, which is real and actual.

Your claim is out in left field

It gives a metaphorical example, God isn't a literal fortress on a hill made of stone, but it's symbolic speech of God's power and strength

Below Is God a literal bird with feathers and wings "No" he is like a female fowl caring for her young, "A Metaphor"

Psalm 91:4KJV
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claim that the Roman empire represents the Antichrist is error, he will be a future literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm not at all convinced the Antichrist will be a Jew. Antichirst is foreshadowed by Antiochus 4 in ancient times, who was *not* Jewish. There have been many Antichrists in history, including Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin--not Jews.

Again, I feel the 4th great empire that would end the age is the Roman Empire, per Dan 2 and 7. This is not Israel!

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan 11.37 refers to Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. But you have to believe according to your own conviction.

 

[Truth7t7]

Dan 11.37 refers to Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. But you have to believe according to your own conviction.

Your claim of Antiochus Epiphanies in 167BC doesn't fit the description in Daniel 11:37 below, he nor his father's worshipped the true Hebrew (God Of His Fathers), and he desired women having a wife and several children

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers), and he won't desire women

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

 

[David Boyer]

Post # 4281 above

I read that and nope... do better please.

 

[David Boyer]

A metaphor is an unrelated story.

Or just a symbol.

metaphor
mĕt′ə-fôr″, -fər
noun

1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or
2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.

 

[marks]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm not at all convinced the Antichrist will be a Jew. Antichirst is foreshadowed by Antiochus 4 in ancient times, who was *not* Jewish. There have been many Antichrists in history, including Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin--not Jews.

Again, I feel the 4th great empire that would end the age is the Roman Empire, per Dan 2 and 7. This is not Israel!



Dan 11.37 refers to Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. But you have to believe according to your own conviction.

Other people have their gods also. Saying "god of his fathers" doesn't automatically mean the true God.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Where in the Bible does it teach that the day of the Lord is exactly 1000 years?



So, we are now in 6022? That blows apart your mistaken theory. You now believe we are in the millennium?

Peter told us not to be ignorant of the Day of the Lord.

It has not been 6022 years. You need to figure it out from God's Word, not the current year.

It has been 1992 years since Jesus obeyed God. Not 2022 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Desolation of their temple was the result of their foolish rejecting of Christ.

Where does it say the temple is made desolate in Daniel 9?

Is the Nation of Israel currently enjoying those 6 promises? What about the whole of mankind? Have all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh been removed from the earth since 30AD? Has death been eradicated?

You have a plausible work around limited by human choice. But not God's direct change eliminating Adam's disobedience from creation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Other people have their gods also. Saying "god of his fathers" doesn't automatically mean the true God.

Much love!

That's true if you want to make that argument. But I hold that Dan 11, towards the end of that chapter, is speaking of Antiochus 4--not Antichrist.

I don't see any reason why the Antichrist should be Jewish, as if being Jewish makes one particularly dangerous? It is true that some Jewish people have had a very large influence on humanity in an antichristian way, such as Karl Marx. But men like Genghis Kahn have had a incredibly far-reaching negative impact upon the world, including Christians, and he wasn't Jewish at all.

So yes, apart from this one verse, I'm not sure there is a basis for a Jewish Antichrist? And that one verse doesn't explicitly indicate that. Thanks.

 

[Timtofly]

I am talking about the Premil millennium. It comes (in your thinking) after the consummation, which is a total contradiction in terms. That is why it is unbiblical.

Is Revelation 21 not Biblical either as it comes after the consummation?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claim of Antiochus Epiphanies in 167BC doesn't fit the description in Daniel 11:37 below, he nor his father's worshipped the true Hebrew (God Of His Fathers), and he desired women having a wife and several children

If the man in question was Antiochus 4, then the "God of his fathers" wasn't the Hebrew God! The statement about his rejecting the God desired by women doesn't seem to have anything to do with being for or against women--just against a particular God that women favored. Some think it may have been Venus, and some the God of the moon--Syrian gods.

 

[marks]

That's true if you want to make that argument. But I hold that Dan 11, towards the end of that chapter, is speaking of Antiochus 4--not Antichrist.

I don't see any reason why the Antichrist should be Jewish, as if being Jewish makes one particularly dangerous? It is true that some Jewish people have had a very large influence on humanity in an antichristian way, such as Karl Marx. But men like Genghis Kahn have had a incredibly far-reaching negative impact upon the world, including Christians, and he wasn't Jewish at all.

So yes, apart from this one verse, I'm not sure there is a basis for a Jewish Antichrist? And that one verse doesn't explicitly indicate that. Thanks.

That the beast is from the sea indicates to me it will be gentile.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Peter told us not to be ignorant of the Day of the Lord.

It has not been 6022 years. You need to figure it out from God's Word, not the current year.

It has been 1992 years since Jesus obeyed God. Not 2022 years.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3:8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

 

[Timtofly]

That would be where it says 'covenant'. That clues us in that it is the deal involving that last leader in the tribulation period. Also, when we see the utter destruction decreed, that clues us in. Everlasting righteousness as well. One should have a knowledge of the rest of the bible and prophesy to be able to connect the dots.


Why misrepresent what I say? Dan 9 to me is an amazing prophesy that pinpoints when Jesus would be expected to be alive. Jesus even said that people should have known what time it was. It also spans the entire future of Israel right till the end. That includes the amazing last week or seven years of history! So it is not all about a covenant.

What covenant is worth beans if it is just a few years?? God is not like that.
Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate
Don't blame God for some little seven year deal that involves an infestation of abominations!!

What, some lousy little two bit covenant for several years that is heavily infested with abominations?? God is supposed to make that strong?!
The seven years divided in two parts in many prophesies tells us it is broken. When we realize the covenant is being spoken about in Dan 9, it then fits in the large package of prophesies on that topic from which ample details are known in detail.
A seven year covenant is also mentioned! One that is full of abominations and is just before the decreed wrath.


Who ever said anything about that stinking little, short abomination laden phony covenant being 'replaced'? Why do you make stuff up?

The Atonement of the Cross covered all of the time of creation not just 7 years. That was my point. You have this covenant made and broken during a mere 7 year period.

The point about Satan's 42 months in Revelation 13, is that for this 3.5 year period, there is no grace nor Atonement available. Not that the Atonement Covenant was broken. It was completely removed. Hence the the removal of the daily sacrifice, ie the Atonement of the Cross. The only way out of these 42 months is either receive the mark and removed from the Lamb's book of life, or chop your head off. That is the only choice. Only those who have their head chopped off are covered by the Atonement Covenant. That is not martyrdom. One is a sinner until the point they remove their head. Once the head is removed, they no longer experience Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Their souls wait for a resurrection after the battle of Armageddon.

 

[dad]

Of Course The Verses State Just That

The Future Human Man Will Be A King As Daniel 11:36 Shows, Daniel 11:37 Shows he Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Hebrew/Jewish Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew God As It States Clearly (God Of His Fathers) The True Hebrew God Of The Bible

Explain why if he was say, from a Catholic heritage, and rejected the God of his fathers, that wouldn't work? How does the verse say exclusively Jewish?