22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[dad]

Link/paste your source.

I have read news for many decades. War is hell. It's bad all over. Really. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc etc etc.

 

[dad]

I am talking about the Premil millennium. It comes (in your thinking) after the consummation, which is a total contradiction in terms. That is why it is unbiblical.

Ok so you are trying to say the millennium. The thousand year reign of Jesus with us over the earth. Looking forward to it.

 

[dad]

You need to sort out your HTML.

You do not seem to have any grasp of imputed righteousness or eternal life. These are experienced upon salvation. This is what Christ brought to this cursed world. The "righteousness" He gives us "is an everlasting righteousness." This is the only righteousness that Christ provides. Reject that and you miss the boat! The alternative is self-righteousness. You choose which you want to embrace.

We all know that. Having some believers in the heathen nations does not mean everlasting righteousness has come yet. Only the return of Jesus will bring that to the world.

 

[Timtofly]

We know that there is a covenant broken and when it gets broken. No possibility that it is any other time but at the end of the world.

Where in this verse is a covenant set up or broken?

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Where in this verse is a covenant set up and how is it broken?

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Was this a covenant between God and Adam?

You claim Daniel 9 is all about setting up and breaking a covenant. When it is not even as clear cut as the one between God and Adam in the Garden.

To make a covenant firm is to make it strong, that it cannot be broken. This is not about some future human treaty sans God and anything to do with God. This is a Covenant that only the Prince, the Lord God can make strong. And no where does Daniel 9:27 even imply the covenant is broken, by God or man. Not even in the Hebrew is a broken covenant stated nor implied.

What is stated is a sacrifice is taken away and desolation ensues. The preterist position of first century fulfillment is also wrong. The verse does not state nor imply a covenant is taken away and replaced by a new Covenant.

 

[WPM]

I call BS. Chapter and Verse references that say that Chapter 20 is just a recap.
No reading of Chapter 20 would back you up on that statement without seriously twisting the scripture.
If it goes back 2000 years... why did Christ lie to John and show him only 1000?

You have a lovely way with words, not.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

 

[WPM]

We all know that. Having some believers in the heathen nations does not mean everlasting righteousness has come yet. Only the return of Jesus will bring that to the world.

Born again believers experience that now. He is everlasting righteousness for the redeemed. He was righteousness personified. Receive Him and receive "everlasting righteousness."

 

[dad]

Where in this verse is a covenant set up or broken?

That would be where it says 'covenant'. That clues us in that it is the deal involving that last leader in the tribulation period. Also, when we see the utter destruction decreed, that clues us in. Everlasting righteousness as well. One should have a knowledge of the rest of the bible and prophesy to be able to connect the dots.

You claim Daniel 9 is all about setting up and breaking a covenant.

Why misrepresent what I say? Dan 9 to me is an amazing prophesy that pinpoints when Jesus would be expected to be alive. Jesus even said that people should have known what time it was. It also spans the entire future of Israel right till the end. That includes the amazing last week or seven years of history! So it is not all about a covenant.

To make a covenant firm is to make it strong, that it cannot be broken. This is not about some future human treaty sans God and anything to do with God.

What covenant is worth beans if it is just a few years?? God is not like that.
Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate
Don't blame God for some little seven year deal that involves an infestation of abominations!!

This is a Covenant that only the Prince, the Lord God can make strong.

What, some lousy little two bit covenant for several years that is heavily infested with abominations?? God is supposed to make that strong?!

And no where does Daniel 9:27 even imply the covenant is broken, by God or man.

The seven years divided in two parts in many prophesies tells us it is broken. When we realize the covenant is being spoken about in Dan 9, it then fits in the large package of prophesies on that topic from which ample details are known in detail.

What is stated is a sacrifice is taken away and desolation ensues.

A seven year covenant is also mentioned! One that is full of abominations and is just before the decreed wrath.

The verse does not state nor imply a covenant is taken away and replaced by a new Covenant.

Who ever said anything about that stinking little, short abomination laden phony covenant being 'replaced'? Why do you make stuff up?

 

[WPM]

If Rev 21:1 is the second coming then why is Christ reigning(on Earth) in Rev 20?

Please show me where "Christ [is] reigning (on Earth) in Rev 20?"

 

[dad]

Born again believers experience that now. He is everlasting righteousness for the redeemed. He was righteousness personified. Receive Him and receive "everlasting righteousness."

No one asked what some minority of the population of earth felt inside their selves! Jesus brings everlasting righteousness when He comes to this world.

 

[WPM]

Ok so you are trying to say the millennium. The thousand year reign of Jesus with us over the earth. Looking forward to it.

It is never going to happen in the future. It has been ongoing since the one-and-only first resurrection.

 

[WPM]

No one asked what some minority of the population of earth felt inside their selves! Jesus brings everlasting righteousness when He comes to this world.

You really do not get it!

In what are these fulfilled and when?

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(5) "anoint the most Holy”?

 

[Timtofly]

The question the futurists must answer is, is there any division in time between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?

Why? It happened in the 5th century BC. Of course there was 49 years and then 434 years. That is not even a futurist issue.

That is just arguing about a past that cannot be changed, nor even makes any sense to change what Scripture clearly points out.

 

[jeffweeder]

Born again believers experience that now. He is everlasting righteousness for the redeemed. He was righteousness personified. Receive Him and receive "everlasting righteousness."

How else are we to obtain this?
I have been a Christian long enough to know I'll never ever achieve this on my own. I need him 24/7.

 

[Truth7t7]

Then stop providing the solid evidence of heresy which you promote.

Your claims are false, bringing untrue slander and defamation upon myself

I have asked "Several Times" for you to stop accusing myself and others of being "Heretics" regarding differences in opinion

 

[WPM]

How else are we to obtain this?
I have been a Christian long enough to know I'll never ever achieve this on my own. I need him 24/7.

Exactly. That God for Christ's First Advent. Without that it would be hopeless.

 

[David Boyer]

You have a lovely way with words, not.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Simple answer to all of the above... None of those appear to be in Revelation(nope I didn't read more than a line or two of your manifesto).
Where in Revelation is the 1000 years expressly defined as figurative?

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is only one great tribulation, and one abomination of desolation. The shadow of that was long ago when that Greek leader set up an abomination in the holy place.

I believe the AoD of Dan 9 and the AoD of the Olivet Discourse as the same. But that doesn't mean I think these are called "great tribulations." The term "Great Tribulation" I find in Dan 12.1 and also in the Olivet Discourse, referring to the final NT punishment of the Jewish People which began with the rise of Rome. That's why Daniel mentioned it right after speaking of the reign of Antiochus 4. That's when Rome came into prominence in the region. And it was Rome that would lead to Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD.

The Great Tribulation, according to Luke, is the NT punishment of the Jewish people, the longest punishment in their history. It was to last from the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD until the end of the age, when Gentile oppression of the Jewish People is finally brought to an end.

I do agree that the reign of Antiochus 4 foreshadows the reign of Antichrist. But we can get this confused with two separate AoDs mentioned in the book of Daniel. One is in Dan 9, and refers to the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And the other refers to Antiochus 4. There is no AoD associated with the Antichrist.

Paul's reference to the Man of Sin taking a seat in the temple of God may be figurative for his self-proclaimed deity, since Paul knew that the temple of Herod was soon to disappear from history.

I would comment further, but you somehow missed the format allowing me to do so. It's okay.

 

[David Boyer]

Please show me where "Christ [is] reigning (on Earth) in Rev 20?"

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 also
"... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[WPM]

Simple answer to all of the above... None of those appear to be in Revelation(nope I didn't read more than a line or two of your manifesto).
Where in Revelation is the 1000 years expressly defined as figurative?

Hello! Revelation is more figurative than amy other book. I rest my case!

 

[WPM]

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 also
"... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Stop avoiding the obvious. Where is earth mentioned here?