22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

I fully agree with dad, as you have been clearly shown several times (The Consummation) didn't take place in your preterist 33AD Cross of Calvary, it's a future event as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 when the heavens and earth are dissolved by the Lord's fire (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

Of course! You Dispies agree on these matters. We have been saying that for a long time.

The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is nothing described in Daniel 9 that necessarily needs to be fulfilled in the second 3 ½ years of the week. What this prophecy is essentially teaching is that those things predicted to occur in this prediction had to be completed within 70 weeks. It doesn't mean they had to take a full 70 weeks to complete. The 6 things predicted to be fulfilled in Christ obviously occurred in the first 3 ½ years of the week, mainly at the midpoint of it.

Saying all that, the Gospel message went out to Israel in the first 3 ½ years of the 70th week (as it had through the preceding ages), and bore significant fruit. After Christ's resurrection/ascent, there were 3 ½ years where the Church was shown to be protected before the persecution began after the 70th week (Revelation 12). The last 3 ½ yrs also saw the outworking of that atonement in faithful Israel (the remnant) with their baptism of fire for service at Pentecost in order to take the Gospel out to the darkened heathen world immediately after that.

This last 3 ½ yrs period ends with the stoning of Stephen and the subsequent persecution of the Church by Saul. Jesus then confronts Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), and censures him for persecuting the Church. Saul is supernaturally converted, and changes his name to Paul. This happens in 34 AD. Through his conversion, the 70th week closes. Saul was then used as that notable tool to head-up the great commission to the Gentile world. Faithful Israel would then take the Gospel to the blinded nations.

So Daniel's 70 weeks were fulfilled in 34AD, however you teach the consummation began at Calvary and continues to the second coming

Your claims go from a literal first 3.5 years, to a second 3.5 years of non-literal

(1.) Daniel 9:27 The "Consummation" wasn't fulfilled at the cross of Calvary as you claim, it will be seen in the second coming and last day Judgement by fire as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 (The Consummation) or (Ultimate End)

(2.) Daniel 9:27 That being poured upon the desolate is the Lords future (Cup Of Wrath) that will be poured out upon the wicked at the Lord's second coming (The Consummation, The Ultimate End)

Your 2,000 year claim of an ongoing "Pouring Upon The Desolate" is comparable to those claiming a 1,000 year long day of the Lord, or a 2,000 year floating 70th week of Daniel, "Forcing" something into scripture not seen

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(The Future Consummation, The Ultimate End)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(The Future Cup Of God's Wrath, That Will Be Poured Upon The Desolate)

Revelation 14:10KJV
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[WPM]

That is when he sets up the abomination of desolation. Right in the middle of the week. We are also given the months days and years.


We know that there is a covenant broken and when it gets broken. No possibility that it is any other time but at the end of the world.

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

“for”

Before advancing into this matter further let us first note: the word “for” is not in the original text. It was an English translation addition. The verse simply tells us that Messiah the prince would confirm the covenant with many one seven.

The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27 reads:

gabar Shall Confirm
bariyth Covenant
rab with many
echad one
shabuwa week

The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years duration. This whole passage is clearly focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. We learn that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

Secondly, it doesn't say that a covenant is made, as our Dispensational brethren propose. Unfortunately they enter into all types of wild speculations on this passage through the writings of the Dispensational school of thought. Rather it tells us that a covenant would be confirmed. The covenant in view that was to be confirmed was none other than the new covenant. It was a covenant that originated in eternity; it was anticipated and predicted in time, and was finally and perfectly realised when God ordained it.

“confirm”

The word translated “confirm” here is the Hebrew word gabar meaning to be strong, strengthen, prevail.

Paul speaking of Christ’s eternal covenant at Calvary, says, “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17).

 

[WPM]

So Daniel's 70 weeks were fulfilled in 34AD, however you teach the consummation began at Calvary and continues to the second coming

Your claims go from a literal first 3.5 years, to a second 3.5 years of non-literal

While the rebuilding of the city was to occur within the 70 weeks (the first 7 weeks specifically) the date of the final destruction of the temple – which resulted from the once all-sufficient sacrifice for sin (in the midst of the 70th week) as predicted in Daniel 9:24 – is NOT specified. It says, “for (or because of) the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its now obsolete ordinances).”

The abominations are the specific cause of the destruction of the temple and that it is when they have reached their pinnacle, and because they have reached their zenith or apex, which was 40 years after Calvary, that the destruction arrived.

The desolation of the temple lasts till the coming of Christ, the consummation.

 

[WPM]

(1.) Daniel 9:27 The "Consummation" wasn't fulfilled at the cross of Calvary as you claim, it will be seen in the second coming and last day Judgement by fire as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 (The Consummation) or (Ultimate End)

I never claimed that the "consummation" was fulfilled at Calvary. It relates to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[dad]

Messiah the Prince confirmed His Covenant and brought in everlasting righteousness at Calvary.

You claim that He is antichrist.

That's not merely confusion. It is blasphemy.

He will bring in everlasting righteousness to this world when He returns. Just before that event in many places in scripture we learn that an agreement is made and broken midway. The one who confirms that covenant is the antichrist. Once he breaks it there is half the seven years left till He returns. No other covenant fits that bill, period.

 

[dad]

The desolation of the temple lasts till the coming of Christ, the consummation (which you reject as the consummation).

Nonsense of course His return finishes things. From the time the abomination is set up till He returns is three and a half years. Not thousands of years.

Ok, so how much space in time is there between the 7 weeks marker and the 8 weeks marker?

8 week?

 

[dad]

LOL. Have a look at the temple mount, or get on a plane to Israel and you will the evidence.

There is no everlasting righteousness there. Neither will we yet see a holy place with an abomination there! You are not even warm.

 

[dad]

I am not disagreeing. You're not getting my questions. Please read them slowly. I am addressing your decapitation of a harmonious prophecy.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Why would God say days if He meant something else and what has that got to do with anything? People familiar with bible prophesy would know that even mid verse it can leap far into the future! That was why Jesus stopped reading a prophesy about Him in the synagogue one day. He closed the book mid passage. Why? Because the rest of the verse had to do with His second coming.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The False Christ And False Prophet, Signs And Wonders Beware!

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I agree that the Lord wont be ON the earth ruling but from the highest realm.

 

[dad]

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

“for”

Before advancing into this matter further let us first note: the word “for” is not in the original text. It was an English translation addition. The verse simply tells us that Messiah the prince would confirm the covenant with many one seven.

The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27 reads:

gabar Shall Confirm
bariyth Covenant
rab with many
echad one
shabuwa week

The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years duration. This whole passage is clearly focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. We learn that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices.

Daniel 9:27
NAS – "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
BHS – וְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית׀ זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֙ל כְּנַ֤ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵֽם׃ פ

That was not when the prophesy is talking about. It is talking about in the middle of the seven years. There was never a complete destruction on earth. Only when Jesus returns will there be a smashing of man's rule here. That is the wrath decreed for the time decreed in the end. There was no abomination of desolation set up yet. There is no use arguing.

Secondly, it doesn't say that a covenant is made, --- it tells us that a covenant would be confirmed. The covenant in view that was to be confirmed was none other than the new covenant. It was a covenant that originated in eternity; it was anticipated and predicted in time, and was finally and perfectly realised when God ordained it.

No that covenant is not for seven years, and Jesus died for us, not just confirmed a document. You ignore the many many prophesies about that last seven year period that includes the Great Tribulation. You cannot make that elephant fit into your tooth brush container, sorry.

“confirm”

The word translated “confirm” here is the Hebrew word gabar meaning to be strong, strengthen, prevail.

Paul speaking of Christ’s eternal covenant at Calvary, says, “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17).

Once again you run around aimlessly trying to find similar words that you take totally out of context and time and place. Yes God made a covenant with Abraham also to which your verse refers.

Galatians 3:16

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:17

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


That has zero relation to the prophesy in Dan made for seven years that ends in the utter destruction decreed.

 

[Marilyn C]

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning end. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” (telos) to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time”; “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

Not so fast. The phrase is `Then comes the end,` means a setting out to a conclusion or goal. That is why it says `He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25) It is a PROCESS.

The restoration of all things by the Lord is a process over time -

1. Restoration of rulership in the third heaven. (Rev. 4)
2. Restoration of rulership over the nations. (Rev. 11: 17, Rev. 25: 31)
3. Restoration of rulership over Israel. (Isa. 60: 20, Zech. 12: 7 - 10, Ez. 37: 24 & 25, Micah 4: 1 - 3)
4. Restoration of rulership in every realm - the third heaven, the Universe and the new earth. (Rev. 3: 21, Heb. 11: 13 - 16, Rev. 21: 24, Gen. 12: 2, Isa. 66: 22)

 

[Randy Kluth]

The abomination is placed by the ruler in the last seven years. No relation to 70AD. Since the final government is the new Roman empire (ten toes) consisting of the same areas the old one had largely, we would say that the armies that came in 70AD were the people of the prince. One reason is that they were of the Roman Empire. Another reason I would think is that the prince of darkness, Satan, will be possessing the final king and ruling through him, just as he also ruled Rome through people! That same prince is the one who sent his people to destroy Jerusalem. So they were Satan's peeps!
That would require some mind bending twisting of the bible.
Sorry, that doesn't work. The sacrifice in Dan 9 is taken away specifically in the middle of that last week or seven years. That week is not part of the time Jesus was here. It is a week at the end of time. A week when Satan the prince rules earth through the evil leader.

Fine, I understand your argument. I disagree, but you're reasonable. A couple of the Church Fathers believed as you did--I think Irenaeus and Hippolytus, but the majority believed as I do, that the AoD was the Roman Army or something like it happening at that time. The wording of Dan 9.26-27 can sort of fool you, because the subject of Jerusalem's fall is 1st introduced, which would happen in 70 AD. And then we get a flashback to the death of Christ before resuming detail of the fall of Jerusalem with the AoD terminology.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I just thought you might be interested--not trying to convince you to go against your own thinking.

 

[covenantee]

He will bring in everlasting righteousness to this world when He returns. Just before that event in many places in scripture we learn that an agreement is made and broken midway. The one who confirms that covenant is the antichrist. Once he breaks it there is half the seven years left till He returns. No other covenant fits that bill, period.

If there is no righteousness, you must still be in your sin.

There is no agreement made and broken. That is futurist fantasy and fallacy.

Antichrist does not confirm any covenant. Antichrist does not appear in the passage. There is no Hebrew word for "antichrist".

There is no recognized defender of the true faith in the 17 centuries of post-apostolic Christianity before the 19th century who associated antichrist with the covenant.

That awaited the modernist cultic blasphemies of dispensational futurism.

The blasphemies to which you subscribe, and which you espouse.

 

[Truth7t7]

While the rebuilding of the city was to occur within the 70 weeks (the first 7 weeks specifically) the date of the final destruction of the temple – which resulted from the once all-sufficient sacrifice for sin (in the midst of the 70th week) as predicted in Daniel 9:24 – is NOT specified. It says, “for (or because of) the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its now obsolete ordinances).”

The abominations are the specific cause of the destruction of the temple and that it is when they have reached their pinnacle, and because they have reached their zenith or apex, which was 40 years after Calvary, that the destruction arrived.

The desolation of the temple lasts till the coming of Christ, the consummation.

That was a complete word salad of non-response

The desolation is "The Destroyed Temple" and this desolation will last from 70AD to the future return if Jesus Christ?

That is "Forcing" something into the scripture thats not seen, a 1950 year "Consummation" and waiting, that is man made Malarkey, no different than a 1,000 year day of the Lord and a 2,000 year gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks

How can your preterist reformed eschatology be taken seriously, laughable and that's a big understatement

A 1950 year consummation and waiting, Big Smiles!

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

The people of the ruler to come is not talking about the Romans. In fact it is not talking about Herods Temple. The Temple that is destroyed in Daniel 9 has not been built yet. The people of the ruler to come is the people of the rider on the white horse who is a king of the North and "AN" Antichrist and the 7th king. He will give his power to "THE" Antichrist, the eighth king who is of the seven.

I understand that you have a different opinion, and that's okay. However, the early Church Fathers largely saw Dan 9 similar to the way I described it. The only ones who saw this through a "futurist" lens was Irenaeus and Hippolytus, Hippolytus being a disciple of the former. There may have been another with futurist views, as well. But the vast majority saw the AoD as what happened 66-70 AD, or thereabouts.

 

[Truth7t7]

I never claimed that the "consummation" was fulfilled at Calvary. It relates to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Your claim is false, I will continue to post your previous claims as seen below (The Cross!)

Quotes WPM Post #4050

Quote Truth7t7: Thanks for the response to question #2 please respond to #1 below thanks

1.) WPM when did or will the consummation take place in Daniel 9:27?

WPM Response #4050: Daniel 9:27?
The cross!

 

[Truth7t7]

Not so fast. The phrase is `Then comes the end,` means a setting out to a conclusion or goal. That is why it says `He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25) It is a PROCESS.

The restoration of all things by the Lord is a process over time -

1. Restoration of rulership in the third heaven. (Rev. 4)
2. Restoration of rulership over the nations. (Rev. 11: 17, Rev. 25: 31)
3. Restoration of rulership over Israel. (Isa. 60: 20, Zech. 12: 7 - 10, Ez. 37: 24 & 25, Micah 4: 1 - 3)
4. Restoration of rulership in every realm - the third heaven, the Universe and the new earth. (Rev. 3: 21, Heb. 11: 13 - 16, Rev. 21: 24, Gen. 12: 2, Isa. 66: 22)

Jesus Overcame And Rules Presently At The Right Hand Of The Father

Next Step Is To Make His Enemies Crispy Critters In Fire And Final Judgement (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

I understand that you have a different opinion, and that's okay. However, the early Church Fathers largely saw Dan 9 similar to the way I described it. The only ones who saw this through a "futurist" lens was Irenaeus and Hippolytus, Hippolytus being a disciple of the former. There may have been another with futurist views, as well. But the vast majority saw the AoD as what happened 66-70 AD, or thereabouts.

I Disagree, citations requested

 

[dad]

Fine, I understand your argument. I disagree, but you're reasonable. A couple of the Church Fathers believed as you did--I think Irenaeus and Hippolytus, but the majority believed as I do, that the AoD was the Roman Army or something like it happening at that time. The wording of Dan 9.26-27 can sort of fool you, because the subject of Jerusalem's fall is 1st introduced, which would happen in 70 AD. And then we get a flashback to the death of Christ before resuming detail of the fall of Jerusalem with the AoD terminology.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I just thought you might be interested--not trying to convince you to go against your own thinking.

Jerusalem's fall aside, the spirit of the verse includes the abomination of desolation Jesus told us about. The words desolate and abomination are in Dan 9 even. The clear mention of the final utter destruction that is decreed is loud and clear also. So the time is placed squarely in the tribulation. Elsewhere in the bible we have the half of the seven years marked out in crystal clear ways, days, months, years.
Nothing seals up or finishes things until that last time.