22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

So far, this agrees with scripture. Jesus is on mount Sion with the 144,000.


There is no information that tells us that the 144,000 are learning the Gospel message. In fact we can tell that is not the case because we can see in Revelation 7 that they are sealed. That means that they have already heard the Gospel message and are believers.


I don't believe this is the case. We have factual information that the 144,000 are in heaven as they are before the throne. We have more factual information that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. We have further factual proof that this is the case because the 144,000 are first fruits. If they are first fruits, that means they have been harvested, which means they are no longer on the earth as they are believers and are not appointed to wrath.


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you ever want to truly understand the written Word of God, you must accept what is written. This is a perfect example. It is written that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. It is written that they are the first fruits of a coming harvest. At the end of Revelation 14 we can see that harvest. There is no mystery here as to what is written. The mystery is why believers have trouble accepting what is written. And thank you for your response.

I looked and I didn't see any thing in Revelation 14, which says that they are in heaven.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for your detailed response.

I hoped for a direct answer to my response.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have showed you above what the thousand years is used for here. It has nothing to do with some suppose future millennium. I suspect you know that. Anyway, the age that you insert in between "this age" and "the age to come" is longer than 1000 years. So, this blows apart your whole thesis.

I basically ignored your previous post because it dealt with nothing I said. Even here, you make no attempt to understand what I said. Peter advances the idea of a thousand-year day. No me.

 

[WPM]

I hoped for a direct answer to my response.

Did you even read my post? I addressed it directly, and took time to answer all your arguments. Please address it. Peter's teaching is primarily a warning to the wicked. There is no doubt about that. What is described is a fiery conflagration. You sidestep that. Premils have to. Granted, there is also reassurance in there for the righteouss - they are not going to experience the wrath of God that is poured out when Jesus comes, they will inherit the new earth. But this too negates Premil and their millennial hope. What is coming is not your imagined future millennial earth, it is a perfect pristine eternal new arrangement.

This is mainly describing the awful wholesale destruction that accompanies Christ's return that will destroy the wicked. Premil have no way around this, apart from explaining it away. The wicked are been warned about what awaits them. Noah's day and Lot's days are given by Christ and the NT writers to show that the destruction is (1) sudden, (2) all-inclusive and (3) climactic.

 

[WPM]

You are missing the point entirely. Peter isn't focused on either one of those things. He is focused on the DAY OF THE LORD, which is the time when God reigns on earth. The day of the Lord begins with fire, doom, smoke, earthquakes and etc. but only in so far as it announces the inauguration of a new era in which righteousness reigns. Peter is focused on the righteousness of that era. What kind of people ought we be if we are looking forward to an era in which righteousness reigns? We, ourselves, ought to live in righteousness. THAT is Peter's point.

According to Revelation, does the new heavens and new earth come at or after the millennial?

 

[WPM]

If Jesus destroys everything when he returns, how is he going to rule the nations with a rod of iron?

That is why you should reject Premil. Your theology forces you to deny the obvious! It contradicts numerous Scripture. It simply doesn't add up. If you take a literal straightforward reading of multiple passages in the Bible that describe the second coming, you will see that the destruction is sudden, wholesale and climatic. You have to explain text after text. You totally butcher, the context and the meaning. You have to in order to force your square peg doctrine in the biblical round hole.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

 

[dad]

Hello dad,

And I suggest you submit to Christ reigning over your life.. ( a little study of the history of Christendom wouldnt hurt either..)

Pax et Bonum

Submitting to Christ has nothing at all to do with being delusional and thinking Jesus and us are reigning the earth now with a rod of iron. That is foolishness and it is a shame to the family of God for people to say such things.

 

[dad]

I have showed you above what the thousand years is used for here. It has nothing to do with some suppose future millennium. I suspect you know that. Anyway, the age that you insert in between "this age" and "the age to come" is longer than 1000 years. So, this blows apart your whole thesis.

Just to be clear are you suggesting that if the time from when Jesus returns to rule till the end of the millennium is a thousand years and 2 months, that means the bible is wrong?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did you even read my post?

You ignore my posts, I ignore your posts. Simple.

I glanced over your post quickly. I found that your answer was generalized and not specific. All you did was restate your assumed narrative. Not only this but you speak in generalities, saying things like "premils bla bla bla" as if I am not here. Sorry, this is a non-starter. You think you are addressing my posts but you are not. All you do is repeat your adopted narrative, which I already reject. If your presentation assumes a narrative that we don't share in common, I simply ignore your posts. Simple as that. I surely don't agree with your interpretation of Peter.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to Revelation, does the new heavens and new earth come at or after the millennial?

Refer to Revelation chapter 21. The NHNE comes after the GWT, which comes after, the eschaton, which comes after Satan's little season, which comes after the Millennial Period.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is why you should reject Premil.

You have it backwards. In my view, Jesus doesn't destroy everything when he comes, which is a good reason to reject Amillennialism.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here?

I don't ignore the Hebrew. I simply understand it differently that you do. Whereas you think the rod breaks people, I think the rod breaks nations, which is what it says. The passage speaks of the dissolution of nation states and the creation of a single dominion, which is lead by Jesus.

Your interpretation completely ignores the end of the Psalm where David writes:

"Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
Worship the Lord with reverence."

According to you, Jesus is going to kill the kings and the judges. So what's the use of worship then? Your view makes no sense of the text.

 

[WPM]

You ignore my posts, I ignore your posts. Simple.

I glanced over your post quickly. I found that your answer was generalized and not specific. All you did was restate your assumed narrative. Not only this but you speak in generalities, saying things like "premils bla bla bla" as if I am not here. Sorry, this is a non-starter. You think you are addressing my posts but you are not. All you do is repeat your adopted narrative, which I already reject. If your presentation assumes a narrative that we don't share in common, I simply ignore your posts. Simple as that. I surely don't agree with your interpretation of Peter.

I knew it. You constantly avoid what exposes your theories. That is your pattern. I will take this as another admission you have no viable rebuttal to the facts. The text forbids your theology.

 

[WPM]

You have it backwards. In my view, Jesus doesn't destroy everything when he comes, which is a good reason to reject Amillennialism.

Who taught you this? The opposite is the truth. Your fight is with clear and repeated Scripture, not Amils.

The coming of the Lord will be fiery and climactic. There will be no survivors. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

2 Samuel 22:9: “There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.”

Job 41:20-21: “Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.”

Psalm 18:7-8: “the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.”

The Psalmist says, in Psalm 50:1-6, “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.”

Here we see a vivid record of the one final future coming of the Lord, the gathering in of the saints and the fiery destruction of the world/wicked. Whilst it is clearly a day of rescue for the saints of God, as in Noah and Lot’s day, it is a day of awful wrath and destruction for the wicked. Those that are left behind are undoubtedly the recipients of this awful final heavenly wrath (as seen elsewhere in Scripture). The Psalmist says of this final event: “a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.”

This reading outlines the gracious rescue that occurs before the final judgment and the end of this present world. The passage expressly declares, “Gather my saints together unto me.” It is expressly the time where the saints of God finally receive their reward. Significantly, it is seen to coincide with the fiery destruction that comes from heaven, destroying all those that love not the Lord’s Coming.

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, “Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5: “But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”

Isaiah 13:9-11: “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars (kowkab) of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth! The whole description indicates this corrupt earth and the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more when Jesus comes.

Isaiah 30:33: “For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nahum 1:1, 5-6 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies …The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

 

[WPM]

You have it backwards. In my view, Jesus doesn't destroy everything when he comes, which is a good reason to reject Amillennialism.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

For example, I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

2 Peter 3:10-13 supports this, saying, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student. No wicked survive. We are looking at utter and wholesale destruction. That is because the wicked are not qualified to inherit the new earth. Mortals are not welcome. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

All of these Old Testament passages agree with the climactic New Testament detail pertaining to the second coming that proves the Amil paradigm. What do you have? Nothing! All you have is the misinterpretation of one apocalyptic passage. That is theologically insane and abysmal hermeneutics. Your understanding of the same conflicts with multiple Old Testament and New Testament passages that show the coming of Christ to be the end.

 

[WPM]

I don't ignore the Hebrew. I simply understand it differently that you do. Whereas you think the rod breaks people, I think the rod breaks nations, which is what it says. The passage speaks of the dissolution of nation states and the creation of a single dominion, which is lead by Jesus.

Your interpretation completely ignores the end of the Psalm where David writes:

"Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
Worship the Lord with reverence."

According to you, Jesus is going to kill the kings and the judges. So what's the use of worship then? Your view makes no sense of the text.

The Greek also exposes your theology. The word "rule" means "shepherd." Christ will shepherd over the nations at the end. He will shepherd over the sheep and goats and will separate them. That is what the word rendered reign/rule in the KJV actually means in the original Greek. There is nowhere in Scripture that says that He will rule over them with the rod of iron for 1000 years. That is a Premil invention.

The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

Here we see the Savior revealed who was brought forth to shepherd. Interesting, the man-child was caught up to His throne from where He now currently sovereignly shepherds the nations.

That reign will continue until Jesus comes again in majesty and glory, and brings heaven to earth.

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the Coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because WPM said that Jesus comes back after the Millennium.

You understand that Amillennialists believe that as well, don't you?

I know. He gets confused. In his haste to answer my post, he spoke as a Postmillennialist. He later suggested that the two schools of thought share some things in common. He doesn't actually believe in Postmillennialism.

Were you somehow not aware that Amillennialists believe that Jesus returns after the thousand years and that isn't something that only Postmillennialists believe?

Both teach that Jesus returns after the Millennial period is over.

Of course. You weren't already aware of that?

As far as I can tell, that is about all they share in common.

Both believe that Jesus started reigning around the time of His resurrection or thereabouts (some would say it started at the beginning of His ministry and some might say it started when He ascended to heaven). And both believe that Satan was bound at that time as well.

WPM believes in an idealized form of the millennium, wherein Christ rules in the hearts of his followers from heaven.

That's what I believe. My beliefs are very similar to his. Jeffweeder is another poster who believes about the same as WPM and I do.

Postmillennialists believe that Christ commanded his followers to subdue the planet and rule over Earth for a thousand years. Then the Messiah will come.

Right. I know the difference between Amillennialism and Postmillennialism. Postmils don't see a time of increased wickedness and a mass falling away before Christ returns the way Amils do. They believe that the world will be Christianized and then Christ will return. So, our beliefs are far different in that way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The text is focused on the soldiers of the armies, not those who stayed home. Jesus will rule over those that didn't fight, those that survived.

You're not reading the text carefully enough. Yes, at first, it focuses on the soldiers of the armies, but then it expands beyond just them.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

The armies would be those who are "free" and "great", but notice how the text expands the scope of those who will be destroyed to "all people" which even includes "slave" and "small". The way it is written implies that it's all inclusive. All unbelievers will be destroyed when Christ returns just as other scriptures like the following indicate:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

What unbeliever doesn't fit the description of those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel or our Lord Jesus"? None. This very clearly indicates that He will destroy and punish all unbelievers when He returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible doesn't teach global destruction after Jesus returns.

Yes, it does. Peter taught it very clearly.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The context here is in relation to the second coming of Christ, as referenced in verse 4. Peter talks about scoffers in the last days mocking the idea of a second coming of Christ while sarcastically asking "Where is this 'coming' he promised?". But, Peter says that they are ignorant of what happened in the past when God destroyed the world with the flood waters in Noah's day. And then Peter pointed out that God will do that again, only this time with fire. He said that in the context of those scoffers. They think they don't need to worry about God's wrath, but Peter said the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire in the future. And those scoffing at the idea of Christ's return will be destroyed when that happens.

Then Peter talked about how the Lord is not being slow when it comes to keeping the promise of His second coming.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So, the context up to verse 9 is the second coming of Christ. Those scoffing about His second coming will have fire come down upon them and they will be judged. And His is not being slow to return as some think. Then Peter said this without changing the context of what he was talking about, which, again, was the second coming of Christ.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Notice that Peter talked about the fiery, global destruction he described as something that could occur in the lifetimes of his readers, which is why he said "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be"? He wouldn't have said this to them if what he described couldn't happen in their lifetimes. If the fiery destruction he described was not to happen until 1000+ years after Christ's return, then Peter would not have said that.

Then in verse 13, Peter indicated that despite the global destruction by fire that will accompany the day Christ returns, we, in accordance with the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming, look forward to the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells. That places the timing of the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth at His second coming. Otherwise, it would not make sense to indicate that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in the context of keeping and fulfilling the promise of His second coming.

The book of Revelation speaks about two distinct times of destruction, the trumpets and the vials. Jesus comes at the Seventh Trumpet, not the Seventh vial.

The seventh trumpet and seventh vial are parallel. Don't you see in Revelation 11:15-18 that the seventh trumpet signals the time for judging the dead? When are the dead judged? AFTER the thousand years, as portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I explained it the way Peter meant it.

Even if Peter were talking about the total destruction of the earth, though I don't think he is, The context is clearly "The Day of the Lord", which takes place over a thousand years or more. In my view, if Peter is talking about total destruction, he is talking about Revelation 20:11.

In other words, 2 Peter 3 is not incompatible with Premillennialism.

Please tell me exactly how you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

You say the day of the Lord takes place over a thousand years or more. How exactly does 1000+ year time period come unexpectedly like a thief in the night?

What do you think will happen at the moment the day of the Lord initially arrives?

At what point exactly do you think the burning up of the heavens and earth will occur?

You said you don't think Peter was talking about the complete destruction of the earth here. What does that mean exactly? That you don't think the entire surface of the earth will be affected by it the way the entire surface of the earth was affected by the flood in Noah's day or are you just saying you don't think Peter was saying that the entire earth, even to its core, will be annihilated (which I would agree with)?