22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[dad]

I'll stick with Jesus in Luke 24.

Stick with not addressing the issue all you like.

 

[dad]

Why not quote the passage?

Is 61
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Lk 4
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Fast forward 17 chapters in Luke and we have the Lord proclaiming the days of vengeance.

Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I suspect that somewhere in this there is a point. What exactly is it?

 

[covenantee]

Stick with not addressing the issue all you like.

I'll stick with Jesus addressing the issue in Luke 24.

 

[jeffweeder]

I suspect that somewhere in this there is a point. What exactly is it?

Jesus has already proclaimed the day vengeance so that all that is written will be fulfilled.

Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of restoration of all things.

Acts 3
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

[Keraz]

Consider the alternatives:)

The Bible tells us where we live now and will always live. On the place made for us; the earth.
You seem to not be able to see the amazing Promises of God to His faithful peoples, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. Read and understand Prophesies like Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Zechariah 8:1-8, Romans 9:24-26

Was He human when He ascended?

No, Jesus was Spirit, in order for Him to go to heaven. As He said; Only He that came from heaven can return to heaven. John 3:13

Are dead people that are saved human?

They are as dust in the earth. But the ALL the dead souls will be made conscious again as they stand before God in Judgment after the Millennium.
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life will go with God into Eternity;

He prepared a place for us

John 14:1-4 refers to the New Jerusalem. to come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

We will be with Him where He is

Those faithful Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will be gathered to where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 is indisputable.

Guess where that is today?

Your fanciful notions of going to live in heaven, are quite wrong and the 'rapture' is in fact a Satanic lie which has deceived many, to their discredit.

 

[dad]

I'll stick with Jesus addressing the issue in Luke 24.

That relates to anything discussed here-how?

 

[dad]

Jesus has already proclaimed the day vengeance so that all that is written will be fulfilled.

Jesus told us that a dark time is coming in the end that is worse than anything ever known, The bible explains that is the time of vengeance.
He explained "22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled"

There was no vengeance in what Jesus read and said was fulfilled! He closed the book before that because it was future.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of restoration of all things.

No. All things are not restored as soon as He comes to earth, they begin to be restored.

Acts 3
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

After the 1000 years is when we see the new heaven and earth.

 

[dad]

The Bible tells us where we live now and will always live. On the place made for us; the earth.

We actually are raised UP to be with Him and later come back down to earth. Our home is New Jerusalem. (even though we will rule here)

You seem to not be able to see the amazing Promises of God to His faithful peoples, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. Read and understand Prophesies like Ezekiel 34:11-16,

That is Israel. Not us. He already sought us out and brought us home to heaven long before that.

Amos 9:13-15,

Also talking about Israel.
Amos 9:14

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Zechariah 8:1-8

Also after Jesus returns and about Israel

Zechariah 8:3

Thus saith the Lord ; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

Romans 9:24-26

That refers to Hosea where God also calls a new people. But that doesn't say we live here!

So once again on all points, you have failed and are shown to have been false.

No, Jesus was Spirit, in order for Him to go to heaven.

Wrong once again, as Jesus proved and said He was not just a spirit. He was also physical. (as we will be)

They are as dust in the earth. But the ALL the dead souls will be made conscious again as they stand before God in Judgment after the Millennium.
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life will go with God into Eternity;

Except we know we go to be with Him when we die. To be absent from the body is to be present with Him. Lazarus was not dust when he died nor even the rich man! You speak falsehood.

John 14:1-4 refers to the New Jerusalem. to come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

It will come to earth at that time. However it is the place prepared for us and we will be with Him right away either in the rapture or when we die.

Those faithful Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will be gathered to where He is; in Jerusalem

.
Since we saints are coming back with Him that does not apply to us.

Matthew 24:30-31 is indisputable.

Not true.

Matthew 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I see nothing in there that says people are gathered to Jerusalem?!

Your fanciful notions of going to live in heaven, are quite wrong and the 'rapture' is in fact a Satanic lie which has deceived many, to their discredit.

Thanks for the demo that you do not know the difference between Satanic lies and truth. That is crystal clear.

 

[Keraz]

Thanks for the demo that you do not know the difference between Satanic lies and truth. That is crystal clear.

You know what? I've had it with people who have been sucked in by the 'rapture' lie.
Thinking they will be taken to live in heaven, is about the biggest and most unlikely idea ever. It surpasses anything Hollywood has come up with!

But the sad thing is they just don't see how the Lord has Promised to save them and bless all of His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

I see nothing in there that says people are gathered to Jerusalem?!

That is because you don't want to see it. Whatever you do; don't look at Zechariah 14:4 & 9-12
We are told that for people who believe lies and unbiblical fables, they will be locked into them. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, Isaiah 29:9-12

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus has already proclaimed the day vengeance so that all that is written will be fulfilled.

Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of restoration of all things.

Acts 3
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

It just baffles me that so many Christians don’t see the truth from these scriptures like these that Jesus does stay in heaven until the restoration of all things.

 

[dad]

You know what? I've had it with people who have been sucked in by the 'rapture' lie.
Thinking they will be taken to live in heaven, is about the biggest and most unlikely idea ever. It surpasses anything Hollywood has come up with!

You know what? The bible is clear on that. Of course the bible is better than anything evil hollywood can cook up.

But the sad thing is they just don't see how the Lord has Promised to save them and bless all of His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

Why piddle in puddles when they are oceans to swim in? New Jerusalem far surpasses the old one. He prepared the New One for us to be with Him in. Not sure why you rule yourself out.

That is because you don't want to see it. Whatever you do; don't look at Zechariah 14:4 & 9-12
We are told that for people who believe lies and unbiblical fables, they will be locked into them. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, Isaiah 29:9-12

[/QUOTE]

Rather than admitting you were exposed as not understanding the verses you spammed when shown point by point, you continue the charade and spam more. Kids, if you happen to read this in some random search or something, remember that Jesus did go to prepare a wonderful place for us, and it is ready now. That is the eternal home for believers. We really do go to heaven to be with Jesus as the bible says. Later, after He returns with us to earth to rule, He restores the saved Jews to the promised land. It also will be the center and capitol of the world then, and we who help Jesus rule will spend a lot of time there and elsewhere on the world. Beware of lying false shepherds, wolves in sheep's clothing that would try to rob you of belief and joy that God gave us in His word. When fanatically teach other things and willing ignore God's Spirit and word, you know what? You can flush and reject all they say and ignore them and avoid them like a sickness.

 

[Keraz]

The bible is clear on that.

Lets see a verse, any Bible passage which says the the Lord intends to take His people to live in heaven.
There simply is none and even the 'rapture' theory godfather; Dr John Walvoord late of the Dallas Theological Seminary, admits there isn't.

Not sure why you rule yourself out.

Actually my desire is to fulfil the destiny of God's wish for a people on earth, who have freely believed in Jesus and who keep His Commandments.
Not sure what you expect to do - sitting on a cloud strumming a harp?

We are told that people will be susceptible to false teachings, 1 Timothy 4:3-4, and Jesus warned us to not be deceived. I guess He knew that many would be deceived!

 

[dad]

Lets see a verse, any Bible passage which says the the Lord intends to take His people to live in heaven

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So He is in heaven. He is coming to receive us to be there also one day. That would be that pesky Rapture you try to ignore.

Notice it does not say we will walk down subway stairs to meet Him and go on a train. We go where He is. Not Detroit. Not Tel Aviv.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2 Corinthians 5:6

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

That is clear.

Actually my desire is to fulfil the destiny of God's wish for a people on earth

Wish? I guess He needs you to fulfil that wish, what are you His Genie?

Not sure what you expect to do - sitting on a cloud strumming a harp?

Nothing in the bible says that. However, I might try that sometime for a laugh.

 

[jeffweeder]

It just baffles me that so many Christians don’t see the truth from these scriptures like these that Jesus does stay in heaven until the restoration of all things.

Yeah me too, Dad seemed to disagree with that scripture.

Acts 3
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Jesus concludes the period of vengeance that he proclaimed in lk 21 and then all will be fulfilled...,

2Thess 1 AMP

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,
8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Keraz]

I might try that sometime for a laugh.

The laugh will be on you, as you stand on earth, not knowing which way to turn; as the Lord sends His fiery wrath on the soon to happen Day when He changes the world and commences all the Prophesied end time events.

I read the list of your so called 'rapture' proofs. NONE of them actually say what I asked for: The Lord intends to take His people to heaven.
You just assume and guess that idea.
It is a fable, a false teaching as Paul told 2 Timothy 4:3-4 would be the case in the end times. At the least. you should know what to do when it doesn't happen.

 

[dad]

The laugh will be on you, as you stand on earth, not knowing which way to turn; as the Lord sends His fiery wrath on the soon to happen Day when He changes the world and commences all the Prophesied end time events.

I read the list of your so called 'rapture' proofs. NONE of them actually say what I asked for: The Lord intends to take His people to heaven.
You just assume and guess that idea.
It is a fable, a false teaching as Paul told 2 Timothy 4:3-4 would be the case in the end times. At the least. you should know what to do when it doesn't happen.

Sorry if I do not share your dark imagination. When Jesus returns He stands on a mountain that splits in two. He rules nations. One does not do that in a pile of charcoal and ash. Maybe ease up on the horror sci fi flicks.

 

[Keraz]

Sorry if I do not share your dark imagination. When Jesus returns He stands on a mountain that splits in two. He rules nations. One does not do that in a pile of charcoal and ash. Maybe ease up on the horror sci fi flicks.

Your mistake is to conflate the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath with the glorious Day of Return. They are separate days, years apart.

The rising to meet Jesus when He Returns, 1 Thess 4:17, is for those Christians who remain; to be transported to Jerusalem. Proved by Matthew 24:31
The terrible Day of fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, is the Sixth Seal event that changes the world, the start of all the prophesied things before the Return. Every one will experience it, it will be our test of faith 1 Peter 4:12

 

[dad]

Your mistake is to conflate the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath with the glorious Day of Return. They are separate days, years apart.

He comes back then rules for 1000 years with His saints here. Not sure what you have confused beyond recognition here.

The rising to meet Jesus when He Returns, 1 Thess 4:17, is for those Christians who remain; to be transported to Jerusalem

. Proved by Matthew 24:31

The verse says people are gathered. It says nothing about some ride to old Jerusalem for all believers.

The terrible Day of fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, is the Sixth Seal event that changes the world, the start of all the prophesied things before the Return. Every one will experience it, it will be our test of faith 1 Peter 4:12

By change the world I think you mean destroys the planet?

 

[Keraz]

He comes back then rules for 1000 years with His saints here. Not sure what you have confused beyond recognition here.

There will be a time gap of about 20 years, [the Seventh Seal] between the Sixth Seal event and the Return of Jesus. All of Revelation 6:12 to Revelation 19:11

The verse says people are gathered. It says nothing about some ride to old Jerusalem for all believers.

Jesus Returns to the earth, 1 Thess 4:16, He arrives on the Mt of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, and He sends His angels to gather his living faithful people to Him; Matthew 24:31 and He brings the GT martyrs back to life. Revelation 20:4.
Any ideas of going to heaven or of a general resurrection are false and unscriptural.

By change the world I think you mean destroys the planet?

No. The new heavens and earth do not appear until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The devastation caused by the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath will devastate and depopulate the Middle East region, Zephaniah 1:14-18, but in the rest of the world, most people will survive, Revelation 6:15 and Isaiah 2:19
We will lose all of our modern infrastructure and a One World Govt will be established to regain order and control. Daniel 7:23
One man will rise and take sole control of the OWG for the final 7 years of this age. Daniel 8:23-25, Revelation 17:12-14

 

[dad]

There will be a time gap of about 20 years, [the Seventh Seal] between the Sixth Seal event and the Return of Jesus. All of Revelation 6:12 to Revelation 19:11

Interesting speculation. Too bad the verses you gave have zero to do with supporting that. Very expected.

Jesus Returns to the earth, 1 Thess 4:16, He arrives on the Mt of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, and He sends His angels to gather his living faithful people to Him; Matthew 24:31 and He brings the GT martyrs back to life. Revelation 20:4.
Any ideas of going to heaven or of a general resurrection are false and unscriptural.

The witnesses do get brought back to life. Nothing to do with all of us migrating to old Jerusalem from heaven. As for angels used in gathering, yes. As for them gathering us to Israel, sorry, it is not in the book. He does land on the mountain, but we came with Him there from Heaven, which the bible says is home. Your half baked would be timetables and destinations remind me of Jehovah witnesses.

No. The new heavens and earth do not appear until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Someone said they did? Or should we add this to your long list of strawmen?

The devastation caused by the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath will devastate and depopulate the Middle East region, Zephaniah 1:14-18, but in the rest of the world, most people will survive, Revelation 6:15 and Isaiah 2:19
We will lose all of our modern infrastructure and a One World Govt will be established to regain order and control. Daniel 7:23
One man will rise and take sole control of the OWG for the final 7 years of this age. Daniel 8:23-25, Revelation 17:12-14

Perhaps you could unscramble your patched together haphazard words here. (no need to offer spam verses as every time so far you have done so there is zero connection to the supposed claims you rattle off) You could clarify but you seem to be suggesting that God depopulates Israel and area before the tribulation even starts!? Very good comedy material.