22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, this does seem like a problem for my view. I need to study further. Thanks for pointing that out.

I appreciate your honesty here. Thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would anyone need to stand firm against the devil if he was bound?

You missed the point. The reason we can stand firm against the devil is because he is bound. Do you think it was the case in Old Testament times that people could resist the devil and he had to flee from them? No. That has only been the case in New Testament times because of us having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. He doesn't flee from us because of us, he flees from us because of the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

 

[Rich R]

No, it absolutely is not a stretch. That is exactly what Revelation 1:5-6 indictaes. John was clearly writing to both Jew and Gentile believers in the book of Revelation. The book was addressed to churches that had Jew and Gentile believers in them and the book was address to all of them.

Well, actually a few of the churches in Revelation didn't exist when John wrote, so we can't say those had Jew or Gentile believers.

Rev 1:5-6,

5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

Where does is say anything at all about the Gentiles in these verses? It would be a good study to see exactly what God does say about the Gentiles ("nations" is another name for them). I believe John mentions the nations (Gentiles) about 20 times. Check 'em out and then you'll know.

There is one thing much more sure than that. You are completely wrong. Who else but the Christian church are those "who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" (Rev 12:17) and are "the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" (Rev 14:12)?

It just has to be Christians? Why not Israel? Didn't they keep God's commandments from time to time? And why would it be so odd that many Jews will accept Jesus during the tribulation? A bunch have already and they haven't even seen the events prophesied in the OT and Revelation come to pass. Wouldn't it be reasonable to think many Jews will repent when they see so many prophecies come to pass in front of their own eyes?

I think you may be so hell bent on getting the church into Revelation that you are missing the obvious signs that all point to Israel and not the church. The church is dealt with in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (and a few other places in Paul's letters). Suffice it to say, the church's end is radically different that that of Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What would you say if you didn't find my posts to be nonsense? In other words, in order for one to expand his or her thinking, one needs to provisionally suspend one's own beliefs in order to sympathetically examine another point of view. But it's possible you have been doing that, and the fault is mine. Perhaps it is.

I pay attention to what you say and consider it. And, usually, I can't make any sense of it. That's just the way it is. It's nothing personal.

Now, let's consider your point that I may be wrong about everything. And let me say that I accept your premise. It is true, I may be wrong about everything. And by "everything" I mean this. If I am wrong about everything, it means that my entire systematic theology is flawed and worthless. To say that I am wrong about everything is to say that I am wrong about the core gospel. And if you are suggesting that my eschatology is based on a faulty core gospel, then this is a much larger issue.

Okay, I don't think I would go that far. I may have been exaggerating a bit. I was really referring to our end times doctrine in particular since that's all I know about what you believe. But, based on some of the things you've said, I can't be 100% certain that you even understand the gospel correctly even though I think you probably do.

But I commend you for the connection you make between one's understanding of the core gospel and one's eschatology. I have been making this point for years. And you might be right about me. I think my understanding of the core gospel would permit me to admit, at least, the possibility that I am wrong.

Well, I hope not. Let's just go there then, I guess. How would you describe the core gospel?

But for now, I hope that you might also accept the possibility that I am not gifted as a teacher and I don't always communicate well. The fact is, this form of communication does not lend itself to the kind of systematic presentation necessary to convey complex ideas.

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Actually, I think you have been clear enough. I'm pretty sure I know what you believe about the things we discuss on this forum. I just disagree with seemingly all of it.

 

[Rich R]

You missed the point. The reason we can stand firm against the devil is because he is bound. Do you think it was the case in Old Testament times that people could resist the devil and he had to flee from them? No. That has only been the case in New Testament times because of us having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. He doesn't flee from us because of us, he flees from us because of the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

1 Pet 5:8,

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
​

Seems like it'd be hard to "walketh about" when bound.

Eph 6:11,

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
​

Paul doesn't think the devil is currently bound.

2 Cor 2:11,

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
​

If he's bound, what difference does it make if we know his devices or not. Apparently he can't do anything to us.

Apparently the devil is alive and well and we need to stand and be aware of his tricks. I think he's pulled off a great trick when he has convinced Christians that he is bound and can't hurt them in this life. The ultimate camouflage!

The devil is bound for a thousand years AFTER Jesus wins the battle of Armageddon. That doesn't happen until a third of the population is gone, the fish and animals are absolutely decimated, hills are flattened, 65 pound hail stones pour down, the sun and moon are no longer visible and many other things that have clearly not occurred. So we have some time to go before the devil is bound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One in Thessalonians where Jesus doesn't actually come all the way down to the earth. He comes in the air and gathers Christians together with him in the air (1 Thes 4:16-17).

The other is in Revelation when Jesus comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lord and defeats the devil at Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21).

Those are not two separate events. Paul continues discussing the second coming into 1 Thess 5, so 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 is all about the second coming. Paul first talks about what will happen to believers on the day He comes and then he goes into what will happen to unbelievers on the day He comes. Don't let the chapter break throw you off as happens to so many.

We can see that believers will be gathered to Him on the same day He destroys His enemies in this passage as well:

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Please read this passage carefully. Paul first indicates that Jesus will punish (take vengeance on) unbelievers when He "is revealed from heaven" and then in verse 10 he indicates that this will happen "on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". Clearly, verse 10 is describing the same thing as he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17. So, Paul places the wrath of Christ against unbelievers and the catching up of believers to Christ on the same day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Pet 5:8,

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
​

Seems like it'd be hard to "walketh about" when bound.

This is your carnal way of looking at things. Did you miss the point I made before about the very next verse after that one?

1 Peter 5:9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Verse 8 only tells part of the story. The good news is in verse 9. He can't devour us if we resist him while standing firm in the faith. As James said in James 4:7, if we resist him then he must flee from us. Was that how things were in Old Testament times? No. The reason Satan must flee from us if we resist him is because he is no match for the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. This was not how things were in Old Testament times. The reason Satan must flee from us now if we resist him is because he is bound by the preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit. He can't do anything to us if we resist him and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and protect us. He is bound from doing so.

I had already told you these things and you apparently just ignored what I said. So, I suspect that will happen again this time.

 

[Rich R]

Well, it's abundantly clear that you have no understanding of the New Testament. Memo to Rich R. Christians, made up of Jew and Gentile believers, are God's people and nationality has nothing to do with it. God is not a respecter of persons, but you make Him out to be one.

I think you either misunderstand or you are just mashing my words in ways that don't make any sense.

I said there are such a thing as Jews, Gentiles, and the church. I'm in good company in saying that, namely Paul.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
​

I also said that God says different things to different people at different times.

Isa 1:1,

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
​

Looks like Isaiah was written to Israel.

Exod 19:3,

And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
​

There are tons of verses like these that say God is talking to a specific people. Why is that so strange to you? Most letters are written to specific people.

Check out the preambles of Paul's letters. You'll see they are addressed specifically to the church.

As far as different times, wouldn't you say things changed after Adam's sin and God had to change how He dealt with man? I mean He had to kick them out of the garden and they would then toil to produce thorns and thistles and perhaps a bit of grain to eat. It certainly was not like picking fruit from trees that God provided for them.

God dealt with Israel in a very special way, namely, they were His chosen people. He did things for them He didn't do for anyone else.

And what about after Jesus' death and resurrection? Surely something changed in the way God deals with people.

Mixing up times and peoples is a sure fire way of screwing up the scriptures. I know, because at one time I mixed up people and times. I know how I understood the scriptures at that time. What I know and you apparently don't know is that once times and peoples are kept strait, the scriptures go from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor.

Lest you think that I think I'm someone special for know all of this, I just want to say there are many others who also understand the things I say. I was taught almost everything I say by some other person. I'm not nearly smart enough to dream up the brilliant logos of John 1:1.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is that nonsense?

Because salvation is an individual thing, not a corporate thing. That is clear throughout scripture. It's whosoever believes, not which ever nation believes.

To me it makes perfect sense as a generalization. I think, if we followed Paul's argument from chapter 9 to chapter 11 together, we might notice that he has been making general statements about Israel for these three chapters. As we know, any time someone makes a general statement about a group of people, one always allows for exceptions to the general rule. Paul is no different. He makes general statements about Israel, taken as a whole, knowing that what he said about Israel is not true of every individual Israelite.

Consider Romans 9:30 and following.

What shall we say then? That [in general] Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but [in general] Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.​

In general, Gentiles attained righteousness by faith. Did each and every Gentile attain to righteousness? No. That would be taking Paul's statement too far. Not every Gentile individual attained righteousness; only those Gentiles who believed the gospel attained it.

This is obvious.

Did the entire nation of Israel pursue righteousness as though it were by works? No. That would be taking Paul's statement too far. In fact, there were several people living in Israel who pursued righteousness by faith. But as a general rule, Paul says, Israel did not attain it.

Yes, this is obvious as well. I hope you are getting to a point here because I'm starting to fall asleep.

The Olive tree analogy is an abstraction, dealing with general concepts concerning God's holy people. The olive tree analogy is the final argument in a series of arguments, most of which, are making general points about Israel taken as a whole. The branches represent the whole, not the parts.

Okay, now I am back to completely disagreeing with you again. You are not recognizing that the cultivated olive tree is a picture of the church. What other entity only has both Israelite believers and Gentile believers in it? How does someone become part of the church? By being part of a certain nation? Or is it by putting their faith in Christ? All Paul is doing with the olive tree text is the same thing he did in Romans 10:9-13 where he talked about how Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way - through faith. He just talked about it figuratively there rather than straightforwardly like he did in Romans 10:9-13.

In fact, one could say that the branches represent generations of Israel.

One could say that and one would be wrong about that. The branches represent individuals. That is obvious because only an individual can be grafted in because of faith and only an individual can be cut off because of unbelief. You're not going to be grafted in or cut off because of the nation you're part of or because of what anyone else does.

One could argue that the Olive tree represents a time-line, depicting the state of Israel down through history. And (speaking in general terms) every subsequent generation is rejected because it didn't believe.

From where does this idea come? We find it in Deuteronomy 29:14 where the Lord tells Israel that he is making a covenant with a future generation of people. In verse 22 he predicts a time when a future generation will review history and come to the right conclusion. In the next chapter, God describes a righteous nation, a nation of people whom he circumcised the heart.

Are you somehow forgetting that Gentiles are grafted in to the Olive Tree as well? Are Gentiles grafted into the nation of Israel? Obviously not. So, your Israel-centric perspective is keeping you from seeing what Paul was teaching there.

 

[Rich R]

Those are not two separate events. Paul continues discussing the second coming into 1 Thess 5, so 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 is all about the second coming. Paul first talks about what will happen to believers on the day He comes and then he goes into what will happen to unbelievers on the day He comes. Don't let the chapter break throw you off as happens to so many.

We can see that believers will be gathered to Him on the same day He destroys His enemies in this passage as well:

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Please read this passage carefully. Paul first indicates that Jesus will punish (take vengeance on) unbelievers when He "is revealed from heaven" and then in verse 10 he indicates that this will happen "on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". Clearly, verse 10 is describing the same thing as he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17. So, Paul places the wrath of Christ against unbelievers and the catching up of believers to Christ on the same day.

Look at everything that will happen in Revelation before the 19th chapter. It talks about 65 pound hail stones, about rivers turning into blood, about 1/3 of the world's population gone, etc, etc. These are all part of the wrath which Paul says more than once Christians are spared.

Christians are the light of the world. We are the only thing holding the devil at bay. He does a lot even now, but it'll be much worse when the light is gone, i.e. when Jesus gathers us together in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find this statement quite offensive. It directly denies plain scripture; Revelation 20 and other proofs of the future Millennium reign of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I find your statement quite offensive because you're not acknowledging that He reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords now even though He does. If you think otherwise, then name even one king or lord that He doesn't reign over right now.

You can believe whatever you like, but to try and convince others to deny the Prophesies, in the manner you do it, is rude and unacceptable.

You know a little bit about being rude, don't you? Are you going to try to claim that you are never rude to anyone on these forums? LOL. I would hope not.

Every faithful Christian person is a child of God's Promise.

Here's something we can agree on.

Many Prophesies say how we Christians; Jew and gentile; will gather and live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26.....in the same place as the ancient Israelites were rejected, Christian peoples will be called: Children of the Living God.

And then you went and ruined it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Look at everything that will happen in Revelation before the 19th chapter. It talks about 65 pound hail stones, about rivers turning into blood, about 1/3 of the world's population gone, etc, etc. These are all part of the wrath which Paul says more than once Christians are spared.

Christians are the light of the world. We are the only thing holding the devil at bay. He does a lot even now, but it'll be much worse when the light is gone, i.e. when Jesus gathers us together in the air.

You didn't address anything I said in my post. Why not? Because you can't?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you either misunderstand or you are just mashing my words in ways that don't make any sense.

I said there are such a thing as Jews, Gentiles, and the church. I'm in good company in saying that, namely Paul.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
​

I also said that God says different things to different people at different times.

Isa 1:1,

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
​

Looks like Isaiah was written to Israel.

Exod 19:3,

And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
​

There are tons of verses like these that say God is talking to a specific people. Why is that so strange to you? Most letters are written to specific people.

Check out the preambles of Paul's letters. You'll see they are addressed specifically to the church.

As far as different times, wouldn't you say things changed after Adam's sin and God had to change how He dealt with man? I mean He had to kick them out of the garden and they would then toil to produce thorns and thistles and perhaps a bit of grain to eat. It certainly was not like picking fruit from trees that God provided for them.

God dealt with Israel in a very special way, namely, they were His chosen people. He did things for them He didn't do for anyone else.

And what about after Jesus' death and resurrection? Surely something changed in the way God deals with people.

Mixing up times and peoples is a sure fire way of screwing up the scriptures. I know, because at one time I mixed up people and times. I know how I understood the scriptures at that time. What I know and you apparently don't know is that once times and peoples are kept strait, the scriptures go from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor.

Lest you think that I think I'm someone special for know all of this, I just want to say there are many others who also understand the things I say. I was taught almost everything I say by some other person. I'm not nearly smart enough to dream up the brilliant logos of John 1:1.

You screw up the entire New Testament by denying what it repeatedly teaches, which is that there is now one people of God made up of Jews and Gentiles and we call that the church (the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the temple of God). You try to separate what the blood of Christ has brought together. God does not have more than one chosen people. We Christians are His people. Ethnicity and nationality has nothing to do with it as NT scripture makes clear repeatedly.

 

[Rich R]

This is your carnal way of looking at things. Did you miss the point I made before about the very next verse after that one?

1 Peter 5:9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Verse 8 only tells part of the story. The good news is in verse 9. He can't devour us if we resist him while standing firm in the faith. As James said in James 4:7, if we resist him then he must flee from us. Was that how things were in Old Testament times? No. The reason Satan must flee from us if we resist him is because he is no match for the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. This was not how things were in Old Testament times. The reason Satan must flee from us now if we resist him is because he is bound by the preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit. He can't do anything to us if we resist him and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and protect us. He is bound from doing so.

I had already told you these things and you apparently just ignored what I said. So, I suspect that will happen again this time.

God telling us to resist the devil somehow negates the truth of verse 8. We need to resist him precisely because he is walking about seeking whom he may devour. If the devil was bound God would have no reason to tell us to resist him.

Anyway, if you don't see all the nasty stuff that will occur (the tribulation and wrath of God) before the devil is bound, I don't know where to go with you. Somebody taught you some pretty strange doctrines and you seem to want to cling to them even in the face of clear scriptural evidence.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christians are the light of the world. We are the only thing holding the devil at bay. He does a lot even now, but it'll be much worse when the light is gone, i.e. when Jesus gathers us together in the air.

So, in your view, Satan is restrained to a point even now but will no longer be restrained at some point in the future. That is how Amils understand his binding. It's a case of him being restrained rather than being completely incapacitated.

 

[Rich R]

You screw up the entire New Testament by denying what it repeatedly teaches, which is that there is now one people of God made up of Jews and Gentiles and we call that the church (the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the temple of God). You try to separate what the blood of Christ has brought together. God does not have more than one chosen people. We Christians are His people. Ethnicity and nationality has nothing to do with it as NT scripture makes clear repeatedly.

I've never said anything about ethnicity. You've brought it up a few times now, but I don't even know what you're talking about.

Where did I deny the church is composed of both Jew and Gentile? I've actually said the church is composed of both Jew and Gentile several times now. I even quoted a verse where Paul talks about Jew, Gentile, and the church. You accuse me of not reading your posts? Better say that while looking in a mirror. It'd be much closer to fact.

There still are Jews and Gentiles and there will be Jews and Gentiles in Revelation. What wasn't in the OT and what won't be in Revelation is the church. That's because we will have been taken up into the air to meet Jesus. The Jews and Gentiles in Revelation have a completely different path to follow.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God telling us to resist the devil somehow negates the truth of verse 8.

Of course not. But, you are assuming that his binding has to do with him not being able to do anything at all. I say it has to do with him having to flee from us if we resist him.

[quot]We need to resist him precisely because he is walking about seeking whom he may devour. If the devil was bound God would have no reason to tell us to resist him.[/quote]He has to flee from us if we resist him because he is bound. Please answer this question. Was this true in Old Testament times that the devil had to flee from someone if they resist him? Or is it true now because he has to flee from the power of the Holy Spirit in us?

Anyway, if you don't see all the nasty stuff that will occur (the tribulation and wrath of God) before the devil is bound, I don't know where to go with you. Somebody taught you some pretty strange doctrines and you seem to want to cling to them even in the face of clear scriptural evidence.

Strange doctrines? Amillennialism has been taught and believed by millions of Christians for the past 2,000 years or so. Educate yourself, man. And where is this supposed clear scriptural evidence that you speak of? Every time I present clear scriptural evidence to support my view, you just ignore it.

 

[Rich R]

So, in your view, Satan is restrained to a point even now but will no longer be restrained at some point in the future. That is how Amils understand his binding. It's a case of him being restrained rather than being completely incapacitated.

I give up. You so mangle my words as to make the message unintelligible. And don't try to tell me it's because I don't know how to communicate. The real problem is your pride. Or are you just trying to rattle me? Whatever. You figure it out. I'm sure you have all the answers. :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've never said anything about ethnicity. You've brought it up a few times now, but I don't even know what you're talking about.

Where did I deny the church is composed of both Jew and Gentile? I've actually said the church is composed of both Jew and Gentile several times now. I even quoted a verse where Paul talks about Jew, Gentile, and the church. You accuse me of not reading your posts? Better say that while looking in a mirror. It'd be much closer to fact.

He was talking about Jewish unbelievers, Gentile unbelievers, and the church that consists of Jew and Gentile believers. So, what is your point there?

There still are Jews and Gentiles and there will be Jews and Gentiles in Revelation.

When did I say otherwise? My point is that God has only one people which consists of Jew and Gentile believers in one body. You try to come up with God having another people made up only of Jews. That is unbiblical. You have to ignore the entire New Testament to come to that conclusion.

What wasn't in the OT and what won't be in Revelation is the church.

That is beyond nonsense. The book is addressed to the church!

Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Is Revelation not a New Testament book? It sure is. Why would it teach something different than the rest of the New Testament?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I give up. You so mangle my words as to make the message unintelligible. And don't try to tell me it's because I don't know how to communicate. The real problem is your pride. Or are you just trying to rattle me? Whatever. You figure it out. I'm sure you have all the answers. :)

You are clearly not used to having your view challenged, so you don't know how to handle it. You should be prepared to be challenged if you're going to express your opinions on a forum like this. You say the problem is my pride just because I am confident in what I believe? I guess that is your problem as well then. But, there is a difference between confidence and pride. You obviously don't handle it well when someone other than you is as confident about their beliefs as you are about yours. That's your problem, not mine.