22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Rich R]

But there's no literal mention of Jesus in the verse. To realize that He is in the verse requires spiritual discernment.

Congrats. You've just spiritualized Scripture's very first prophecy.

If Scripture's very first prophecy is spiritual, do you think that Scripture could contain other spiritual instances?

I'll let you answer.

By spiritualizing scripture I meant looking for the "hidden" meaning that only the "initiated" can understand. That's the essence of Gnosticism.

Genesis 3:15 is a figure of speech, metonomy. In this case, "seed" stands in for the product of that seed, i.e. Jesus, which we learn to be the case later on.

Figures of speech are legitimate tools of grammar. They actually enhance objectivity. Spiritualizing scripture on the other hand is highly subjective. Anybody can say anything and it's taken as truth.

Looks like I did not in fact spritualize scripture's very first prophecy, thank you! :)

You're absolutely right that all of the OT is about Jesus. But the name "Jesus" does not appear once in the OT. How can we know when Scripture is referring to Him?

Already answered, but here you go,

John 5:39,

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.​

 

[Rich R]

How is it that something which you consider to be of such significance as "the kingdom that God promised Israel" is not in the NT?

Refer to post 1593 again for reasons.

A few times now, I've mentioned the mystery that God kept secret until he revealed it to Paul. Paul talked about something radically different than the OT.

Paul talks to Christians. The Kingdom was promised to Israel. Of course if times and peoples are mixed together, it wouldn't matter. But I'm not really sure what would matter when times and peoples are mixed together.

Do you not think it of much significance that God promised Israel a kingdom? It's in there, so it must have some significance. Yes, no?

 

[Truth7t7]

Kind of an odd question, but you probably misunderstood me. No, I can't walk through doors just yet. But later, when Jesus gathers us together in the air, yes.

1Thess 4:16-17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Phil 3:21,

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
​

Thanks for the response Rich!

When will the event of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 take place?

 

[covenantee]

By spiritualizing scripture I meant looking for the "hidden" meaning that only the "initiated" can understand. That's the essence of Gnosticism.

Genesis 3:15 is a figure of speech, metonomy. In this case, "seed" stands in for the product of that seed, i.e. Jesus, which we learn to be the case later on.

Figures of speech are legitimate tools of grammar. They actually enhance objectivity. Spiritualizing scripture on the other hand is highly subjective. Anybody can say anything and it's taken as truth.

Looks like I did not in fact spritualize scripture's very first prophecy, thank you! :)


Already answered, but here you go,

John 5:39,

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.​

Dictionary definition of "spiritualize" from Merriam Webster:
"to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense"

That's what we do when we see Jesus in Genesis 3:15.

That is the only way to properly understand Genesis 3:15.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good verses for sure. But I'm afraid you are mixing up times and peoples.

Colossians was written to the church, to Christians (Col 1:2) and that kingdom is a present reality.

The kingdom God promise Israel is not the same kingdom. As I've pointed out many times, the kingdom God promised Israel is a very physical kingdom in a land that was visible to the eye. It is not yet here. How could it be when there is no king sitting on a throne? There will be, but not yet. That's what Revelation is all about.Jesus doesn't sit on the throne and inaugurate the kingdom God promised Israel until after the devil is thrown into the lake of fire. Clearly, That has not transpired as of today.

National Ethnic Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Rich R]

Thanks for the response Rich!

When will the event of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 take place?

I don't know a specific date, but there is this:

Rom 11:25,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
​

God basically hit the "pause" button on Israel while He now works with both Jew and Gentile to make them both one body. It's the mystery God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul. Once this age is over God will hit the "resume" button on Israel and fulfill all the promises He made to them in the OT. That's the main subject of Revelation as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and others. None of those deal with the church. The church was kept secret throughout the entire OT, including the Gospels.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't know a specific date, but there is this:

Rom 11:25,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
​

God basically hit the "pause" button on Israel while He now works with both Jew and Gentile to make them both one body. It's the mystery God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul. Once this age is over God will hit the "resume" button on Israel and fulfill all the promises He made to them in the OT. That's the main subject of Revelation as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and others. None of those deal with the church. The church was kept secret throughout the entire OT, including the Gospels.

I disagree, please respond to post 1665 above

 

[covenantee]

A few times now, I've mentioned the mystery that God kept secret until he revealed it to Paul. Paul talked about something radically different than the OT.

Paul talks to Christians. The Kingdom was promised to Israel. Of course if times and peoples are mixed together, it wouldn't matter. But I'm not really sure what would matter when times and peoples are mixed together.

Do you not think it of much significance that God promised Israel a kingdom? It's in there, so it must have some significance. Yes, no?

The mystery was "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel". Ephesians 3:6

Jesus did not promise a kingdom to Israel. He promised the opposite--that the kingdom would be taken from Israel and "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

There is only one nation that produces the fruits of the Kingdom of God.

It is His Church (1 Peter 2:9).

There is no significance to a kingdom of Israel, because there is no kingdom of Israel.

 

[Rich R]

Dictionary definition of "spiritualize" from Merriam Webster:
"to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense"

That's what we do when we see Jesus in Genesis 3:15.

That is the only way to properly understand Genesis 3:15.

Well, if Genesis 3:15 were the ONLY verse that talked about Jesus, it would be highly unlikely we'd know it was about him. The only reason we know it was about him is because of tons of other verses that make it clear. All we need is a bit of logic and common sense to see that. No need for spiritualizing it to get the answer.

Good definition, but I think I told you how I looked at it, i.e., finding "hidden" meanings in the otherwise obvious statement. Again, look at what the Gnostics did with the scriptures. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Rich R]

I disagree, please respond to post 1665 above

You disagree about a specific date or Romans 11:25?

 

[Rich R]

The mystery was "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel". Ephesians 3:6

Jesus did not promise a kingdom to Israel. He promised the opposite--that the kingdom would be taken from Israel and "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

There is only one nation that produces the fruits of the Kingdom of God.

It is His Church (1 Peter 2:9).

There is no significance to a kingdom of Israel, because there is no kingdom of Israel.

God lied to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and many others? You seriously don't see anything in the OT about a kingdom headed up by a righteous king?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Show me that in Rev 20.

We don't see it in Revelation 20 specifically, but we see it earlier in the book of Revelation 6:12-17, which is describing a New Heavens.

 

[covenantee]

Well, if Genesis 3:15 were the ONLY verse that talked about Jesus, it would be highly unlikely we'd know it was about him. The only reason we know it was about him is because of tons of other verses that make it clear. All we need is a bit of logic and common sense to see that. No need for spiritualizing it to get the answer.

Good definition, but I think I told you how I looked at it, i.e., finding "hidden" meanings in the otherwise obvious statement. Again, look at what the Gnostics did with the scriptures. That's what I'm talking about.

What single word would you use to describe seeing Jesus in Genesis 3:15, or in any other OT Scripture in which we see Jesus?

 

[Rich R]

National Ethnic Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

So the secret God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul was actually revealed to Matthew before Paul? How do you know the "nation" in Matt 21:43 is the church?

 

[Rich R]

What single word would you use to describe seeing Jesus in Genesis 3:15, or in any other OT Scripture in which we see Jesus?

I don't know. You seem to want to tell me, so go ahead and tell me.

 

[covenantee]

God lied to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and many others? You seriously don't see anything in the OT about a kingdom headed up by a righteous king?

Jesus is God, and He has the Last Word.

Matthew 21:43 was His Last Word.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus is God, and He has the Last Word.

Matthew 21:43 was His Last Word.

Interesting take on things. I'll give you that.:)

 

[covenantee]

I don't know. You seem to want to tell me, so go ahead and tell me.

According to the dictionary definition, "spiritualize" is a very appropriate word.

 

[Truth7t7]

You disagree about a specific date or Romans 11:25?

Rich it appears you claim a "National Ethnic Israel" has a future in God's plan?

Rich Romans chapter 11 is speaking of the "Remnant Elect Church", those whom God foreknew

Rich the scripture clearly teaches "Only" the remnant elect will be saved by grace and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded, God has given National Ethnic Israel a spirit of slumber, read it again and again

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The scripture below screams your "Wrong"

You claim a resurrection of the believer takes place, then 1,000 years on this earth in a Millennial Kingdom will follow "Wrong"

Scripture teaches the resurrection takes place (Then Cometh The End) you don't like those words, because it removes your claim of a 1,000 year kingdom on earth after the resurrection

Why do you desire to remove the words (Then Cometh The End)???????

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Why is it that Amillennial apologists ascribe motive to those who object to this view?

What does Paul mean by "the end"? Do you allow for more than one possible meaning? In your mind "the end" means what? What did Paul mean? Find evidence in the text for the meaning of "the end." The end of what? Do you know? You think you know, but do you REALLY know? Where is your evidence for what "the end" means.

Let me tell you what I think. I think Paul is describing the end in verse 24. After the resurrection of the saints, then comes "Jesus work to deliver up the kingdom to God, WHEN he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. It isn't truly the end until after he has done that. And when do you suppose Jesus will do that? During the Millennial period. Of course.