22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[covenantee]

Was Isaac a child of the flesh. Of course he was. Your flesh/spirit dichotomy doesn't work.

Tell Paul.

"Of Israel"

Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

 

[CadyandZoe]

Tell Paul.

"Of Israel"

Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

If the seed are not counted, then Isaac is not counted. Get it?

 

[covenantee]

psst.
Some people see Mary in a ham sandwich. So what?

Look, typology is not a valid hermeneutic. Typology is nothing more than a couple of bear drinking sunbathers on the beach looking up at clouds saying, "hey, doesn't that cloud look like Jesus?" People make up all kinds of things to sound smart.

Listen to the Apostle Paul when he tells you that finding Jesus in the Old Testament isn't easy. That is, he argues that the murder of the messiah on a cross was a mystery, hidden from the ages.

Tell John.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[covenantee]

If the seed are not counted, then Isaac is not counted. Get it?

So your claim that Isaac was a child of the flesh is false.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

Of course.

[/quote]
The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.
[/quote]
Negative.

Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You should stop right here and check your interpretation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Tell John.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Sure, the scriptures testify about the messiah, who turned out to be Jesus. The Bible teaches us about God's will in plain language but not through typology.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So your claim that Isaac was a child of the flesh is false.

How so? What makes you say that? Was Isaac born of Abraham and Sarah or not?

Did Paul mention a Gentile by name in chapter 9? No. Why? Because Paul's focus is on a promise God made to ethnic Israel. You don't understand this because Satan has stolen the OT from you.

 

[covenantee]

Of course.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.
[/quote]
Negative.

Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You should stop right here and check your interpretation.[/QUOTE]


You should keep going.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

They are bestowed exclusively upon God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

It is directed exclusively to God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

 

[covenantee]

How so? What makes you say that? Was Isaac born of Abraham and Sarah or not?

Did Paul mention a Gentile by name in chapter 9? No. Why? Because Paul's focus is on a promise God made to ethnic Israel. You don't understand this because Satan has stolen the OT from you.

You don't understand that Christ is the Fulfillment and Heir of the OT.

2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2

 

[covenantee]

Sure, the scriptures testify about the messiah, who turned out to be Jesus. The Bible teaches us about God's will in plain language but not through typology.

Describe how "in plain language but not through typology" applies to Scripture's first prophecy.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You should keep going.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Read it again. Paul is talking about enemies of the gospel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You don't understand that Christ is the Fulfillment and Heir of the OT.

2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2

What did I say that would cause you to conclude this about my view?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Describe how "in plain language but not through typology" applies to Scripture's first prophecy.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Show me how that statement is typological?

 

[covenantee]

Show me how that statement is typological?

I say that "thee" is Satan.

Whom do you say that "thee" is?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I say that "thee" is Satan.

Whom do you say that "thee" is?

You don't seem to know what Typology is.

 

[covenantee]

You don't seem to know what Typology is.

Please enlighten us.

 

[Rich R]

psst.
Some people see Mary in a ham sandwich. So what?

Look, typology is not a valid hermeneutic. Typology is nothing more than a couple of bear drinking sunbathers on the beach looking up at clouds saying, "hey, doesn't that cloud look like Jesus?" People make up all kinds of things to sound smart.

Listen to the Apostle Paul when he tells you that finding Jesus in the Old Testament isn't easy. That is, he argues that the murder of the messiah on a cross was a mystery, hidden from the ages.

The mystery was that the Jews and Gentiles would become one body and joint heirs.

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Both the sufferings and glory of Christ were well known in the OT.

Isa 52:14,

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:​

The entire 53rd chapter in Isaiah talks about Jesus' sufferings

1 Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

What they didn't know was what came between the sufferings and the glory. That was what was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul. Jesus didn't even know about the mystery. That is why he said some of the people alive at that time would see his second coming. He thought it would only be a few years because all he had to go by was the OT. He didn't realize there would be the present indefinite period of time in which the Jews and Gentiles would be made into one body and be joint heirs. Prior to the mystery, the Gentiles were flat out of luck when it came to God (Eph 2:12). When God is done with the one body (our present age), He'll get back to Israel and fulfill the promise of an everlasting kingdom to them. Right now, as per Paul and Peter, that is on hold. But God won't forget about them...Jesus is coming back! :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please enlighten us.

Here is a pretty good explanation from "Got Questions.org"

"Typology is a special kind of symbolism. (A symbol is something that represents something else.) We can define a type as a “prophetic symbol” because all types are representations of something yet future. More specifically, a type in Scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament that foreshadows a person or thing in the New Testament."

This form of hermeneutics is eisogesis, i.e. reading information into a text, rather than seeking to know what the author meant to say, which is why typology is not valid.

 

[Truth7t7]

The main thrust of Romans chapters 9-11 is just that. It is telling the Christians that God has not forgotten Israel and that He has a plan for them in the future as well. It's a different plan than that of the Christian church, but it's a good plan nonetheless! :)

Meanwhile, there is nothing that would prevent any Jew from becoming a Christian and thereby also being caught up into the air and thereby be saved from the wrath that will follow, i.e., Revelation. Is that what they call, ""Remnant Elect Church?" In any case, it's a lot easier to get saved now than it will be then, so it would be highly advantageous to do so. The events in Revelation will in no way be a cake walk!

The main thrust of Roman's 11 is the "Remnant" Jew that will be saved by grace and "Added" to the church on earth, those whom God "foreknew"

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture as you suggest

Rich the scripture clearly teaches "Only" the remnant elect will be saved by grace and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded, God has given National Ethnic Israel a spirit of slumber, read it again and again

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

 

[covenantee]

Here is a pretty good explanation from "Got Questions.org"

"Typology is a special kind of symbolism. (A symbol is something that represents something else.) We can define a type as a “prophetic symbol” because all types are representations of something yet future. More specifically, a type in Scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament that foreshadows a person or thing in the New Testament."

This form of hermeneutics is eisogesis, i.e. reading information into a text, rather than seeking to know what the author meant to say, which is why typology is not valid.

Applying your knowledge of typology, who is "thee" in Genesis 3:15?