22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

God lied to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and many others? You seriously don't see anything in the OT about a kingdom headed up by a righteous king?

You gave complete disregard to the scripture presented, once again

National Ethnic Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[CadyandZoe]

Scripture for a nation of promise?

Romans 9:6.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where in the New Testament do we find "the kingdom God promised Israel"?

Why the New Testament? You believe that the OT isn't scripture?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What single word would you use to describe seeing Jesus in Genesis 3:15, or in any other OT Scripture in which we see Jesus?

We don't see Jesus in the OT. Jesus was born to Mary in the first century.

 

[covenantee]

Why the New Testament? You believe that the OT isn't scripture?

You believe that the NT isn't Scripture?

 

[covenantee]

We don't see Jesus in the OT. Jesus was born to Mary in the first century.

Natural eyes don't.

 

[covenantee]

Romans 9:6.

Pleased that you see it.

"All Israel"

Not "of Israel"
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

 

[Truth7t7]

Why is it that Amillennial apologists ascribe motive to those who object to this view?

What does Paul mean by "the end"? Do you allow for more than one possible meaning? In your mind "the end" means what? What did Paul mean? Find evidence in the text for the meaning of "the end." The end of what? Do you know? You think you know, but do you REALLY know? Where is your evidence for what "the end" means.

Let me tell you what I think. I think Paul is describing the end in verse 24. After the resurrection of the saints, then comes "Jesus work to deliver up the kingdom to God, WHEN he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. It isn't truly the end until after he has done that. And when do you suppose Jesus will do that? During the Millennial period. Of course.

Its not what you "Want", but what scripture clearly states below, (Then Cometh The End) not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth that you "Want" and "Desire"

Scripture teaches Jesus puts down all rule and authority, and you "Want" and "Desire" to put him upon a earthly throne ruling during a Millennial Kingdom "Wrong"!

Why do you desire to remove the very clear words (Then Cometh The End)?

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Truth7t7]

We don't see Jesus in the OT. Jesus was born to Mary in the first century.

"Your claim is false"!

The Lord Jesus appeared with two angels upon this earth, to have lunch with Abraham and Sarah at their tent, just to mention one!

Genesis 18:1-8KJV
1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

 

[Rich R]

According to the dictionary definition, "spiritualize" is a very appropriate word.

I totally trust you about the dictionary definition of "spiritualize" so I'll not use that word any more to describe what I'm trying to say.

This is what I was thinking about when I said "spiritualize":

Gnosis. "Gnosis" is a special, mystical kind of knowledge to which the Gnostics claimed to have privileged access. The very name "Gnostics" - which the classic Gnostics do seem to have used to refer to themselves [1] - means "those with gnosis," and indicates just how essential gnosis was to their sense of identity.
​

Instead of taking the scriptures for what they overtly say, the Gnostics claimed a hidden meaning that only the "initiated" could understand. That's what I'm against. What would you call that? "Spiritualize" sounded good to me at first, but I guess it's not the best descriptive.

 

[Rich R]

Rich it appears you claim a "National Ethnic Israel" has a future in God's plan?

Rich Romans chapter 11 is speaking of the "Remnant Elect Church", those whom God foreknew

Rich the scripture clearly teaches "Only" the remnant elect will be saved by grace and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded, God has given National Ethnic Israel a spirit of slumber, read it again and again

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

I know nothing about a "National Ethnic Israel" in the scriptures. I'm not sure what that means, so I obviously don't hold a belief about it one way or the other.

Honestly I'm also ignorant as to what the "Remnant Elect Church" means either.

I think all of Romans chapters 9 through 11 are part of the same context.

When Jesus came the first time, he would have set up the kingdom God promised Israel throughout the OT, but the king was killed, hence no kingdom for Israel. God then hit the "pause" button on His dealings with Israel and turned His attention to something He had kept secret all along. That would be the mystery that He revealed to Paul about Jew and Gentile being one body. It actually says there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but that Christ is all in all (Col 3:11). We are in an age that was like none other before it nor after it. Paul talks a lot about it in his epistles. In any case, when this age is over and the Christians have been caught up into the air to be with Jesus (1 Thes 4:13-18, note Jesus does not come down to earth at this time as he will in Revelation to fight the battle of Armageddon), then God will hit the "resume" button and finish up all the promises He made to Israel. That is the subject of Revelation as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc, in the OT.

The main thrust of Romans chapters 9-11 is just that. It is telling the Christians that God has not forgotten Israel and that He has a plan for them in the future as well. It's a different plan than that of the Christian church, but it's a good plan nonetheless! :)

Meanwhile, there is nothing that would prevent any Jew from becoming a Christian and thereby also being caught up into the air and thereby be saved from the wrath that will follow, i.e., Revelation. Is that what they call, ""Remnant Elect Church?" In any case, it's a lot easier to get saved now than it will be then, so it would be highly advantageous to do so. The events in Revelation will in no way be a cake walk!

 

[Rich R]

You gave complete disregard to the scripture presented, once again

National Ethnic Israel has no future promise of a kingdom on earth as you suggest, you teach "Zionism" in (Dual Covenant Theology)

When Israel rejected Jesus Christ the chief corner stone, the kingdom was given to the "Church" the Holy Nation, bringing forth its fruit

Matthew 21:42-44KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "Church" A Holy Nation!

1 Peter 2:8-9KJV
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

You may be mixing me up with someone else. I never heard of a National Ethnic Israel, so I didn't say anything at all about them.

God promised a physical kingdom to Israel. One with a temple, a priest, a king, etc. That is not the church. As Paul said many times, the church was a secret that only God knew until He told him about it. Nothing in the OT is talking about the church.

God told Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et. al., to "lift up your eyes" and see the land. It was real land. Revelation and all the other OT prophets always talked about a real land based kingdom with it's HQ in Jerusalem. There will be grape vines, animals, jobs, a king, etc.. It'll be a real place on a real earth. That kingdom has nothing whatsoever to do with the church was a secret until God told it to Paul.

I think it is a real problem when we mix up to whom God spoke as well as when He spoke it. There are different times and different peoples in the scriptures. He said one thing to Israel and later, via Paul, He told quite different thing to the church. They dare not be mixed up if we want to avoid confusion.

 

[covenantee]

I totally trust you about the dictionary definition of "spiritualize" so I'll not use that word any more to describe what I'm trying to say.

This is what I was thinking about when I said "spiritualize":

Gnosis. "Gnosis" is a special, mystical kind of knowledge to which the Gnostics claimed to have privileged access. The very name "Gnostics" - which the classic Gnostics do seem to have used to refer to themselves [1] - means "those with gnosis," and indicates just how essential gnosis was to their sense of identity.
​

Instead of taking the scriptures for what they overtly say, the Gnostics claimed a hidden meaning that only the "initiated" could understand. That's what I'm against. What would you call that? "Spiritualize" sounded good to me at first, but I guess it's not the best descriptive.

Sounds more like this.

 

[Rich R]

Sounds more like this.

Yeah, that is sure a big part of it. Good point.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You believe that the NT isn't Scripture?

Sure I do. But you asked for a New Testament Reference, which is strange. The New Testament doesn't supersede the Old Testament. Bear in mind, the New Testament authors had no reason to repeat or defend any idea from the Old Testament among folks who accepted the inerrancy of the Old Testament. With regard to promises God made to Israel, one would expect to find those promises in the Old Testament.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Natural eyes don't.

psst.
Some people see Mary in a ham sandwich. So what?

Look, typology is not a valid hermeneutic. Typology is nothing more than a couple of bear drinking sunbathers on the beach looking up at clouds saying, "hey, doesn't that cloud look like Jesus?" People make up all kinds of things to sound smart.

Listen to the Apostle Paul when he tells you that finding Jesus in the Old Testament isn't easy. That is, he argues that the murder of the messiah on a cross was a mystery, hidden from the ages.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Pleased that you see it.

"All Israel"

Not "of Israel"
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Was Isaac a child of the flesh. Of course he was. Your flesh/spirit dichotomy doesn't work.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Its not what you "Want", but what scripture clearly states below, (Then Cometh The End) not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth that you "Want" and "Desire"

Scripture teaches Jesus puts down all rule and authority, and you "Want" and "Desire" to put him upon a earthly throne ruling during a Millennial Kingdom "Wrong"!

Why do you desire to remove the very clear words (Then Cometh The End)?

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I don't think I removed any words.
Let's look closely at verse 24.

Then cometh the end
1. Jesus returns and calls his followers out of the dead. (verse 23)
2. The millennial period begins.
2.a. Christ will put down all rule and all authority and power.
3. He will deliver up the kingdom of God to the Father.
4. The end.

Verse 24 describes the end. Paul tells us what the end will look like. It's as if he is saying, "then comes the end. And you want to know what the end will look like? First, Christ will put down all rule and all authority and power. Then when Jesus has finished that, he will deliver up the kingdom of God to the Father."

I see nothing at all in my interpretation that would contradict the plain wording of the passage. I have not removed any words.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"Your claim is false"!

The Lord Jesus appeared with two angels upon this earth, to have lunch with Abraham and Sarah at their tent, just to mention one!

Genesis 18:1-8KJV
1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Are you denying that Jesus was born of Mary?

 

[covenantee]

Sure I do. But you asked for a New Testament Reference, which is strange. The New Testament doesn't supersede the Old Testament. Bear in mind, the New Testament authors had no reason to repeat or defend any idea from the Old Testament among folks who accepted the inerrancy of the Old Testament. With regard to promises God made to Israel, one would expect to find those promises in the Old Testament.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.