22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Rich R]

​

Christ speaking in the gospel that the Dispensationalists say was written solely to the Jews

I'm taking it that you don't believe in different dispensations. I know a lot of folks don't. Well, there is this;

Matt 15:24,

But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

Matt 10:5,

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:​

Paul talks about dispensations 4 times in his Epistles; 1 Cor 9:17, Eph 1:10, Eph 3:2, and Col 1:25.

If nothing else, surely you must see a radical change in God's dealing with people after Jesus was raised than it was before that. If not, why did he bother to die at all. It wouldn't not have been an easy thing to do for nothing.

I know you wrote much more, and I did read it. However if Jesus was right in Matt 15:24 and 10:5 about coming only for Israel, much of the rest you wrote would be irrelevant. What do you think about those 2 verses?

 

[WPM]

I do see it as the NHNE. I don't see it as a description of eternity.

According to the book of Revelation, when is the new heaven and new earth introduced, before or after the millennium?

 

[Rich R]

That is what most Premils do with the literal passages in Scripture.

Yeah, those premils to seem wanting to consider context all the time. And that's bad...why?

 

[WPM]

I'm taking it that you don't believe in different dispensations. I know a lot of folks don't. Well, there is this;

Matt 15:24,

But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

Matt 10:5,

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:​

Paul talks about dispensations 4 times in his Epistles; 1 Cor 9:17, Eph 1:10, Eph 3:2, and Col 1:25.

If nothing else, surely you must see a radical change in God's dealing with people after Jesus was raised than it was before that. If not, why did he bother to die at all. It wouldn't not have been an easy thing to do for nothing.

I know you wrote much more, and I did read it. However if Jesus was right in Matt 15:24 and 10:5 about coming only for Israel, much of the rest you wrote would be irrelevant. What do you think about those 2 verses?

I strongly disagree with Dispensationalism. I believe in the OT and NT dispensations. The OT was primarily focused on the nation (singular) of Israel, whereas under the NT the Gospel is primarily focused on the nations (plural). Now ill you please address my rebuttal?

 

[Rich R]

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

My mistake. Forgive me. I should have been more specific.

2 Sam 7:13,

He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.​

2 Sam 7:16,

And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
​

There are many other places that say the kingdom God promised would be an everlasting kingdom. When the whole history of Israel is considered, obviously the kingdom mentioned in Joshua was not the everlasting kingdom. Assyria and Babylon put an end to that particular kingdom. Clearly, we're still waiting for the everlasting kingdom.

​

Rev 11:15,

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

This is spoken some time after much of the earth is destroyed and the population decimated. By this time, a third of the world's population would have been killed by smoke, fire, and brimstone. We're still waiting on that, and it has to occur before Jesus' everlasting throne and kingdom is established.

 

[Rich R]

I strongly disagree with Dispensationalism. I believe in the OT and NT dispensations. The OT was primarily focused on the nation (singular) of Israel, whereas under the NT the Gospel is primarily focused on the nations (plural). Now ill you please address my rebuttal?

You seem pretty secure in your belief. If you don't believe in dispensations, there wouldn't be much point in going into material that depended on dispensations.

 

[WPM]

You seem pretty secure in your belief. If you don't believe in dispensations, there wouldn't be much point in going into material that depended on dispensations.

I said I believe in 2, the OT and the NT. Please read my post again.

 

[Truth7t7]

Maybe, I don't know that for sure.
Bear in mind, during that time, the church will have been resurrected, they will have put on incorruptibility, and they will rule with Christ as immortals on the earth. Jesus says, for instance, that Peter, John and the rest of the 12 apostles will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. Isaiah refers to these mortals as "survivors."

These tribes will exist as mortals during that time. I presume that other immortal disciples of Jesus will rule over other survivors in other areas of the world. But I have no reason to know, one way or the other if these morals are believers.

I know this though, the Bible says that the mortal, Jewish, survivors will be living in Jerusalem as righteous people who fear God. They undoubtedly meet Jesus Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior at his second coming, so perhaps you are right.

In my humble opinion. :)

"No" the scripture doesn't support what you claim whatsoever

The resurrection of "All" takes place on the "Last Day", at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Then Cometh The End)

You have eternal "Immortal's" in Jesus and glorified saints running around on this decaying mortal earth, ruling humans, "Big Smiles"!

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to the book of Revelation, when is the new heaven and new earth introduced, before or after the millennium?

That would be during the Millennium.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"No" the scripture doesn't support what you claim whatsoever

The resurrection of "All" takes place on the "Last Day", at the second coming of Jesus Christ (The End)

You have eternal "Immortal's" in Jesus and glorified saints running around on this decaying mortal earth, ruling humans, Big Smiles!

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

None of that defeats the idea of a Millennial period.
The saints are resurrected to life at the beginning of the Millennial period.
The last day is the last thousand years of history.

 

[Rich R]

I said I believe in 2, the OT and the NT. Please read my post again.

As I told you before I did read your whole post. I also gave you a good reason why I didn't comment on it.

I don't understand why somebody would not see any difference between the time, the dispensation if you will, of the Garden of Eden before and and after Adam sinned. I also don't understand why somebody would not see how things changed after God met Moses and gave him the law on Sinai. I would think Jesus sure changed things when he boiled down that whole law into two laws (love God, love your neighbor). But one thing we saw that didn't change with Jesus' first advent, namely the Gentiles were still with God and without hope (Eph 2:12). I would think that things took and even more radical change on the day or Pentecost. If you looked at the 4 verses I gave you that mentioned dispensations, you might see what I mean on that. And surely, the tribulation will be yet another radical change in how God deals with people. No more grace and salvation by faith. It'll be back to law in Revelation. But let's not mix up how things will be after Jesus puts the devil in the lake of fire with any other time period before that, i.e., with any other dispensation.

Sure seems like God changed how He deals with people as well as who He deals with way more than 2 times. The pages right before Genesis and Matthew that say in big red letters, "Old Testament" and "New Testament" and are otherwise blank, were not God's idea. The translators were probably sincere in thinking they could make things easier for the reader, but they ended up muddying the waters in a rather big way. Sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy

That should answer to the rest of your post. In any case, I wouldn't know what more to say. If you don't believe in dispensations after what I've already said (I'm sure others have told you pretty much the same things), it's doubtful anything else I could say would matter. So I don't want to write it and I wouldn't blame you one bit for not wanting to read and consider it.

 

[WPM]

That would be during the Millennium.

Show me that in Rev 20.

 

[Truth7t7]

None of that defeats the idea of a Millennial period.
The saints are resurrected to life at the beginning of the Millennial period.
The last day is the last thousand years of history.

The scripture below screams your "Wrong"

You claim a resurrection of the believer takes place, then 1,000 years on this earth in a Millennial Kingdom will follow "Wrong"

Scripture teaches the resurrection takes place (Then Cometh The End) you don't like those words, because it removes your claim of a 1,000 year kingdom on earth after the resurrection

Why do you desire to remove the words (Then Cometh The End)???????

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[WPM]

As I told you before I did read your whole post. I also gave you a good reason why I didn't comment on it.

I don't understand why somebody would not see any difference between the time, the dispensation if you will, of the Garden of Eden before and and after Adam sinned. I also don't understand why somebody would not see how things changed after God met Moses and gave him the law on Sinai. I would think Jesus sure changed things when he boiled down that whole law into two laws (love God, love your neighbor). But one thing we saw that didn't change with Jesus' first advent, namely the Gentiles were still with God and without hope (Eph 2:12). I would think that things took and even more radical change on the day or Pentecost. If you looked at the 4 verses I gave you that mentioned dispensations, you might see what I mean on that. And surely, the tribulation will be yet another radical change in how God deals with people. No more grace and salvation by faith. It'll be back to law in Revelation.

Sure seems like God changed how He deals with people as well as who He deals with way more than 2 times. The pages right before Genesis and Matthew that say in big red letters, "Old Testament" and "New Testament" and are otherwise blank, were not God's idea. The translators were probably sincere in thinking they could make things easier for the reader, but they ended up muddying the waters in a rather big way. Sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy

That should answer to the rest of your post. In any case, I wouldn't know what more to say. If you don't believe in dispensations after what I've already said (I'm sure others have told you pretty much the same things), it's doubtful anything else I could say would matter. So I don't want to write it and I wouldn't blame you one bit for not wanting to read and consider it.

Are you Pretrib? Do you believe God has got 2 peoples today?

 

[Rich R]

Are you Pretrib? Do you believe God has got 2 peoples today?

No.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:​

I'm casting my lot in with Paul who believed in 3 peoples today. I think he is right.

 

[Truth7t7]

No.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:​

I'm casting my lot in with Paul who believed in 3 peoples today. I think he is right.

God has one people his "Church" where there isn't Jew, Greek, Male, Female, Bond, Free, that are seen as one people by God

There is saved "Church", and unsaved "World" its that simple

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[WPM]

No.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:​

I'm casting my lot in with Paul who believed in 3 peoples today. I think he is right.

Are you midtrib or prewrath?

 

[Rich R]

God has one people his "Church" where there isn't Jew, Greek, Male, Female, Bond, Free, that are seen as one people by God

There is saved "Church", and unsaved "World" its that simple

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Well, it is true that in the church there is no Jew nor Gentile. They are in truth all one in Christ. But there is more on the subject than Galatians 3:26-29. We must consider all scripture and avoid building an entire doctrine on a few isolated verses.

Galatians in no way suggests that all Jews and Gentiles are in the church. There are still some who have not confessed Jesus as their lord and are therefore are not born again and are not members of the church of the body, namely some Jews and some Gentiles. We still have Jews and Gentiles besides the church. I would be loathe to suggest that God lied to Paul when He inspired him to write 1 Corinthians 10:32.

 

[WPM]

No.

1 Cor 10:32,

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:​

I'm casting my lot in with Paul who believed in 3 peoples today. I think he is right.

What are you trying to prove? This is talking about eating customs.

You are taking this innocuous passage in 1 Corinthians 10:32, which is simply speaking of eating and drinking onto idols, and build a whole elaborate eschatological theology around it. You do this to support your belief that there are three distinct peoples in this world.

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups, or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.

Therefore, to build such a major doctrine upon such a totally unrelated isolated passage is both naïve, unwise and mistaken. Notably, this is the only passage that the dispensationalists can find that identifies three groupings of people in the world. And, as we have already seen, it is nothing to do with dispensationalism, notwithstanding, they force their whole school of thought into this reading as if it will somehow prop up this carefully constructed sandcastle.

 

[covenantee]

Anyone whom God is saving is a child of promise. But there is also a nation of promise, which God will save sometime in our future.

Scripture for a nation of promise?