22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

We're going in circles here.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

Aren't these really the same question?

Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Your answer is right there.

3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

These are also the same thing, aren't they? Regardless, this doesn't really have anything to do with how I understand things. Jesus will judge the gentile survivors of the great tribulation sorting wicked and righteous. At the great white throne, Jesus will judge the wicked, all of them. The dead.

5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

Again, no interpretation needed, only translation as that is the plain statement made. Rather, the question is, why not believe the plain sayings of the Bible, and use the less ambiguous to interpret the more ambiguous?

If you think a passage contradicts these, quote it. Put them side by side and lets examine them together.

Much love!

This is classic Premil: interpret Rev 20 by your opinion of Rev 20. That is not corroboration. That is not support that is a problem. You for a hyper-literal meaning on a highly symbolic passage. Not wise!

 

[Truth7t7]

Zach 14 and Is 4 prove my point


16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

You still have not explained why people on the earth DURING christ rule will be punished.

If, as you claimn, this is eternity future. No one can sin. Why is there sin in your future?

The eternal kingdom isn't angels with long hair and harps, it will have rivers with fish, fishermen, fishing nets, houses built, vineyards planted, harvested, and eaten

I guess rain will be needed to grow vineyards in the New Heaven And Earth?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why are you referencing Isaiah 11:6-10 in relation to a supposed future earthly millennial kingdom when Paul related Isaiah 11:10 to the salvation of the Gentiles during this age?

It hasn't happened yet. Maybe you should test it - could be spiritually real for you? Put your head in a lion's mouth or a hippo's mouth - according to Isaiah 11 no harm will come to you! ;)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And after Satan's little season, I assume?

Okay, thank you for answering that question.

That leads me to another question (or questions). Since you believe that Christ's return happens 1000+ years before the end of the age then what do you make of the disciples question they asked Jesus in Matthew 24:3 about "the sign of your coming and of the end of the age"? In His response to their questions (the other was about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings), it's not too hard to see where He spoke about His second coming. But, where do you think He spoke about the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse?

He told of all that would happen and said THEN the end would come. If I recall correctly, the last thing before the end (of the current age) came would be the gospel preached to all nations. So really, I see that as the whole world seeing telecast the two witnesses preaching and then laying dead and then being caught up. So technically, if pressed, I think one age ends in wrath and a new age begins as the thousand years begins and then the end of ages is when the last enemy, death, is done away with and eternity commences on the new heavens and earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It hasn't happened yet. Maybe you should test it - could be spiritually real for you? Put your head in a lion's mouth or a hippo's mouth - according to Isaiah 11 no harm will come to you! ;)

The salvation of the Gentiles hasn't happened yet? I can't imagine that's what you're saying, so I just have no idea what you're saying. Again, Paul related Isaiah 11:10 to the salvation of the Gentiles. Should we not accept that understanding of Isaiah 11 as Paul taught it?

 

[marks]

You for a hyper-literal meaning on a highly symbolic passage. Not wise!

What makes it "hyper-literal", and what makes the passage "symbolic"?

If Jesus was three days and three nights in the grave, why not 1000 years on the throne in Jerusalem?

I think that trusting the veracity of narrative prophecy to be extremely wise!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He told of all that would happen and said THEN the end would come. If I recall correctly, the last thing before the end (of the current age) came would be the gospel preached to all nations. So really, I see that as the whole world seeing telecast the two witnesses preaching and then laying dead and then being caught up. So technically, if pressed, I think one age ends in wrath and a new age begins as the thousand years begins and then the end of ages is when the last enemy, death, is done away with and eternity commences on the new heavens and earth.

Honestly, this was very hard to follow, so I'll need to ask a couple questions for clarification.

When do you believe the end of the age occurs as referenced in Matthew 24:3 in relation to Christ's return? Do you believe that is the same end of the age referenced in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What makes it "hyper-literal", and what makes the passage "symbolic"?

If Jesus was three days and three nights in the grave, why not 1000 years on the throne in Jerusalem?

Obviously, any time a Premil asks "why not" about things like this the Amil answer is going to be because that contradicts other scriptures. So, there's no need to ask an Amil a question like that. Just letting you know.

I think that trusting the veracity of narrative prophecy to be extremely wise!

What does "the veracity of narrative prophecy" mean?

 

[Truth7t7]

What makes it "hyper-literal", and what makes the passage "symbolic"?

If Jesus was three days and three nights in the grave, why not 1000 years on the throne in Jerusalem?

I think that trusting the veracity of narrative prophecy to be extremely wise!

Much love!

Because Revelation 20:1-6 dosent describe Jesus on a throne upon this earth in Jerusalem

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You weren't talking to me, but do you believe that Zechariah 14 has to do with "the reign of Christ in Jerusalem"? If so, then I can explain why that would mean there would be sin during that time.

You weren't talking to me, but do you believe that Zechariah 14 has to do with "the reign of Christ in Jerusalem"? If so, then I can explain why that would mean there would be sin during that time.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,

What is the day of the lord?

And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

When will/did this happen?

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

When will/did this happen?

It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

What day is this?

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall h]">[h]dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.

what day is this?


11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

when will this happen?

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles

Who is the king of kings and the lord of Hosts? to answer your question. I believe this is Jesus

17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

What families/nations? who is the lord of Hosts in jerusalem. and why is there punishment?

 

[Truth7t7]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,

What is the day of the lord?

The Day Of The Lord Is "The Last Day" Of Man And This Earth's Existence

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you think I can just explain what I believe to you and why in just a minute or two? It takes time. I don't support my doctrine with just one or two verses, so it would take me a fair amount of time to explain to you why I disagree with your interpretation of Revelation 20. Also, I have already been explaining my view in several posts in this thread. Maybe you can find one of those and respond to it. But, I am not up to explaining my view yet again right now.

Maybe we could make it simple and just start with one passage. How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It is the end of this earth as we know it. The end of time. When this earth is destroyed completely and made new.

That happens at the end of the 1000 years.. We I believe are talking about what happens at the begining of the 1000 years and the end.

I am not sure why it would take you a long time

Post the verse. And explain in detail what you think John is saying. Just like I did

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It should not happen. I agree. We are all learning.

amen, at least I hope we are

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The eternal kingdom isn't angels with long hair and harps, it will have rivers with fish, fishermen, fishing nets, houses built, vineyards planted, harvested, and eaten

I guess rain will be needed to grow vineyards in the New Heaven And Earth?

why would they need rain? Was there no vinyards and plants in the earth pre flood?

Again, why is their punishment in the passage if this is eternity future

 

[marks]

Obviously, any time a Premil asks "why not" about things like this the Amil answer is going to be because that contradicts other scriptures. So, there's no need to ask an Amil a question like that. Just letting you know.

That's hardly a foregone conclusion, and requires comparing the actual Scriptures in their contexts.

What does "the veracity of narrative prophecy" mean?

Veracity is "truthfulness", "conformance to fact". Narrative prophecy is a prophecy that tells a sequence of events. Gives you a "narrative" of what will happen.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,

What is the day of the lord?

And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

When will/did this happen?

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

When will/did this happen?

It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

What day is this?

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall h]">[h]dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.

what day is this?


11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

when will this happen?

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles

Who is the king of kings and the lord of Hosts? to answer your question. I believe this is Jesus

17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

What families/nations? who is the lord of Hosts in jerusalem. and why is there punishment?

I was just looking for a yes or no answer. So, it looks like your answer to my question is yes, you do believe that Zechariah 14 has to do with a reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

The reason I asked that question was not to get your interpretation of Zechariah 14 or debate with you about that passage, as you seem to have thought, but rather to show you why there would be sin during that time if you believed Zechariah 14 referred to that time. And the reason there would be sin during that time is because it talks about the punishment for anyone who didn't "come up to Jerusalem to worship the King". That implies that there would be those who would refuse to do that. And for them to fail to do that would be a sin, which is why they would be punished for it. So, with this in mind, I'm not sure why you would deny that there would be sin during that time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's hardly a foregone conclusion, and requires comparing the actual Scriptures in their contexts.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that Amils shouldn't have to back their view up with the other scriptures, I'm just saying that the reason why we don't interpret Revelation 20 the way you do is because of what we see taught in other scriptures.

Veracity is "truthfulness", "conformance to fact".

I know that, silly. I wasn't asking for a definition of the word veracity. I just wanted to know what you meant by "the veracity of narrative prophecy".

Narrative prophecy is a prophecy that tells a sequence of events. Gives you a "narrative" of what will happen.

That's not how the book of Revelation works. It's not just all a sequence of events. It has several parallel sections in it rather than it being all, or mostly all, in chronological order from beginning to end.

 

[Truth7t7]

why would they need rain? Was there no vinyards and plants in the earth pre flood?

Again, why is their punishment in the passage if this is eternity future

It a waring, it never has take place asyou suggest

"IF" the family of Egypt?

A Real Big "IF" it hasn't taken place itsthat simple

Now what are you going to do with the "Eternal" river of life flowing out of Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:8?

Zechariah 14:17-18KJV
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Honestly, this was very hard to follow, so I'll need to ask a couple questions for clarification.

When do you believe the end of the age occurs as referenced in Matthew 24:3 in relation to Christ's return? Do you believe that is the same end of the age referenced in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50?

And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (I prefer the translations that say the end of the age but either is okay with me.)

He gave an answer of things that would occur (but it’s not exhaustive, as with all prophetic passages, and more details can be found in other passages) and then He says, but it’s not the end yet, then He answers more things that will happen and says, it’s still not the end yet. He ends by saying, and then the gospel will be preached to the whole world and THEN the end (of the age) comes.
So I think the end of the age comes after the two witnesses preach the gospel to the entire world, are killed, caught up, then Gods wrath is poured out on the world. This begins another age of a thousand years.
But as for the end of this world, I think that happens when satan is released to deceive again, gathers an army, the army is destroyed, the elements burn, and the new heaven and earth come down from heaven. I think Mathew 13: 36-43 is the second reaping/resurrection, which places it about here.

 

[Truth7t7]

I was just looking for a yes or no answer. So, it looks like your answer to my question is yes, you do believe that Zechariah 14 has to do with a reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

The reason I asked that question was not to get your interpretation of Zechariah 14 or debate with you about that passage, as you seem to have thought, but rather to show you why there would be sin during that time if you believed Zechariah 14 referred to that time. And the reason there would be sin during that time is because it talks about the punishment for anyone who didn't "come up to Jerusalem to worship the King". That implies that there would be those who would refuse to do that. And for them to fail to do that would be a sin, which is why they would be punished for it. So, with this in mind, I'm not sure why you would deny that there would be sin during that time.

No sin was performed, its simply a "warning" as post #518 above clearly shows "IF"