22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, I'm glad you recognize that, at least. Obviously, we don't see the same parallels, though.

No, we don’t. We can’t I guess. A big part of that is believing or not believing there is a thousand year period of time wedged into all of it.

 

[Truth7t7]

yet Jesus said whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Only those who have recieved the mark will be killed. Those who do not and endure will enter the kingdom Age with Jesus where he will gather the Elect. seperate the nations. and rule from Jerusalem. Even punishing the nations who do not come to Jerusalem once a year by not giving them any rain.

This is not eternity.. We will not need rain in eternity. nor will we need to be punished

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth Is A Fabricated Fairy Tale Of Man

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think it will happen at the end of the thousand years.

And after Satan's little season, I assume?

I guess if I was pressed to say when exactly the “end of the age” is, I would say after the millennium, when there is no more death, no more sun and moon and the new heavens and earth come down out of heaven.

As for when Jesus returns, I think He returns before the tribulation to gather all for the wedding, returns partway through the tribulation in wrath, and is present during the millennium. I guess my current thinking is that He is already present on earth when satan is released again, gathers an army, then the army is destroyed.

Okay, thank you for answering that question.

That leads me to another question (or questions). Since you believe that Christ's return happens 1000+ years before the end of the age then what do you make of the disciples question they asked Jesus in Matthew 24:3 about "the sign of your coming and of the end of the age"? In His response to their questions (the other was about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings), it's not too hard to see where He spoke about His second coming. But, where do you think He spoke about the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse?

 

[marks]

the problem with this is in areas of question. such as this, Just because you think we are out of line because we believe in premill does not mean you can use that passage to rebuke us.. Not does it give us the right to rebuke you

Sadly to many people use this passage to rebuke people merely because they do not agree with them. that is not what that passage was meant to do.

Yes.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's not something I can just answer briefly. We have to look at scripture as a whole to see what it says about Christ reigning, about the resurrection of the dead and the judgment of people. To me, scripture repeatedly teaches one general resurrection of all of the dead as well as one judgment day rather than two. I'm not going to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other Bible passages.

okay then, how do you interpret this, I’ll listen:
They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Who said that? No one. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. In 2 Peter 3:10-13 it indicates that He will renew the earth by fire, resulting in the new earth. No one said He will just leave the earth in ruins and go back to heaven. What a ridiculous notion.

2 Pet.3:10 event is after the Millennial Kingdom when He destroys the firat heavens and first earth. The Millennial Kingdom is Paradise reborn. Sin and evil is put down, a Christian only planet, finally peace and harmony - even among animals. The wolf will play with the sheep. This is a reprogram of life. Sin distorted life and until sin is drastically reduced down to something that is rare there can be no peace on earth.
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:6-10
Can you comprehend that?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Look at the passage I quoted and speak on it.

I have had this conversation with you before. I will not go down your rebbut trail of refusing to look at the passages in question and just stating your belief and throwing a bunch of verses in my face that has nothing to do with the passage I spoke of.

Nothing here refutes the words of the Prophet that shows CHrist WILL RULE, when when he rules HE WILL PUNISH PEOPLE

As someone said earlier. the bible can not contradict.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

it can be a bit confusing.. Forgive me

No problem. It might be helpful to read through a bit more of the thread so you can see what has already been discussed if you have time to do that.

 

[Truth7t7]

yet Jesus said whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Only those who have recieved the mark will be killed. Those who do not and endure will enter the kingdom Age with Jesus where he will gather the Elect. seperate the nations. and rule from Jerusalem. Even punishing the nations who do not come to Jerusalem once a year by not giving them any rain.

This is not eternity.. We will not need rain in eternity. nor will we need to be punished

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Meant what he said? What does that even mean. I believe he meant what he said, too, but I still disagree with your understanding of what he said. Why are you acting as if the book of Revelation should be read no differently than reading a news article?

Then try to explain it to me.

I keep hearing you tell me I am wrong. but I do not hear how you can see Johns words a different way.

That's not something I can just answer briefly. We have to look at scripture as a whole to see what it says about Christ reigning, about the resurrection of the dead and the judgment of people. To me, scripture repeatedly teaches one general resurrection of all of the dead as well as one judgment day rather than two. I'm not going to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other Bible passages.

I disagree. we just have to look at the passage. and you need to explain what John said in the passage.

I have been doing that for quite awhile in this thread already and I'm getting a bit tired of it at this point. Maybe you could read through more of the thread to understand where Amils are coming from? Have you never been part of a Premil vs. Amil debate before? That's fine if you haven't, but I don't feel like repeating things I've already been saying the past couple hours in this thread again.

I have been a part of many a debate. I have actually studied all sides for years. , . But I love to discuss the word. because I am not to proud to say I know everything.

And when I see people make comments like it does not say what it says literally. I want to know why they think that. When they say they need to go elswhere. I want to know why. And then I would ask they use the other passages to support what they think the person said.

also. I do not want to know what an AMIL thinks. I want to know what you think and why you think it. Thats the only way we can have a normal discussion. If you try to lump all premills under one group. you will fail to understand what I believe and why I believe it. Because I do not agree with every type of pre mill doctrine.

if I put you under an amil blanket and say I know what you believe, I disrespect you. That is my opinion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Pet.3:10 event is afywrt the Millennial Kingdom when He destroys the firat heavens and first earth. The Millennial Kingdom is Paradise reborn. Sin and evil is put down, a Christian only planet, finally peace and harmony - even among animals. The wolf will play with the sheep. This is a reprogram of life. Sin distorted life and until sin is drastically reduced down to something that is rare there can be no peace on earth.
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:6-10
Can you comprehend that?

Why are you referencing Isaiah 11:6-10 in relation to a supposed future earthly millennial kingdom when Paul related Isaiah 11:10 to the salvation of the Gentiles during this age?

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jewsb]">[b] on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name.” 10 Again, it says, “Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.” 11 And again, “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him.” 12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”

 

[Truth7t7]

yet Jesus said whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Only those who have recieved the mark will be killed. Those who do not and endure will enter the kingdom Age with Jesus where he will gather the Elect. seperate the nations. and rule from Jerusalem. Even punishing the nations who do not come to Jerusalem once a year by not giving them any rain.

This is not eternity.. We will not need rain in eternity. nor will we need to be punished

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

(The Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Zach 14 and Is 4 prove my point


16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

You still have not explained why people on the earth DURING christ rule will be punished.

If, as you claimn, this is eternity future. No one can sin. Why is there sin in your future?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Isn't that true of you as well? Are you actually open to changing your view? I doubt it.

That is why I said it is a futile effort. Just like debating with a Non-Trinitarian, a JW or a Catholic like theefaith ... hundreds of pages later and there is no resolve. Among the Pre-Millennials, we have major walls between Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, and never ending debates. I am a Mid-Tribber so at odds with both of them.
So one needs to choose his debates, count the costs - decide whether it is worth it or not if he wants to get his feet wet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then try to explain it to me.

I keep hearing you tell me I am wrong. but I do not hear how you can see Johns words a different way.

I disagree. we just have to look at the passage. and you need to explain what John said in the passage.

Do you think I can just explain what I believe to you and why in just a minute or two? It takes time. I don't support my doctrine with just one or two verses, so it would take me a fair amount of time to explain to you why I disagree with your interpretation of Revelation 20. Also, I have already been explaining my view in several posts in this thread. Maybe you can find one of those and respond to it. But, I am not up to explaining my view yet again right now.

Maybe we could make it simple and just start with one passage. How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

(The Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

once again, I am not playing your games been there with you.

Explain why there is sin during the reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

If you can not. let me know and I will move on. I refuse to get into another useless conversation with you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is why Insaid it is a futile effort. Just like debating with a Non-Trinitarian, a JW or a Catholic like theefaith ... hundreds of pages later and there is no resolve. Among the Pre-Millennials, we have major walls between Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, and never ending debates. I am a Mid-Tribber so at odds with both of them.
So one needs to choose his debates, count the costs - decide whether it is worth it or not if he wants to get his feet wet.

Yes, I fully understand all of that. You can take part in this particular debate as much as you want. Or not. Whatever. It's obviously up to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

once again, I am not playing your games been there with you.

Explain why there is sin during the reign of Christ in Jerusalem.

If you can not. let me know and I will move on. I refuse to get into another useless conversation with you.

You weren't talking to me, but do you believe that Zechariah 14 has to do with "the reign of Christ in Jerusalem"? If so, then I can explain why that would mean there would be sin during that time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is why Insaid it is a futile effort. Just like debating with a Non-Trinitarian, a JW or a Catholic like theefaith ... hundreds of pages later and there is no resolve. Among the Pre-Millennials, we have major walls between Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, and never ending debates. I am a Mid-Tribber so at odds with both of them.
So one needs to choose his debates, count the costs - decide whether it is worth it or not if he wants to get his feet wet.

There does not need to be this thing where we are at odds with each other.

Thats the problem. everything thinks they are right, and if anyone disagrees with them, well then they are at odds with me. and I must fight to protect my belief.

Thats where the fights come from.

I am torn betwen pre and mid trib. But I am not at odds with anyone. no one really knows the real answer. we will not know that until CHrist returns.. Until then, we can only study and make up our minds. discuss and see if there is anything we are missing. If we throw our hands up to defend we will never be teachable.. and come across as arrogant.

 

[WPM]

good God I hope no one is doing that. This is not a salvation issue. the gospel is not when will the ressurection be or will God rull in the future or is he ruling now..

Its sad. Like I said this is my favorite subject (next to history) yet the most heated and hateful subject I have ever encountered in any christian chat room I have been a part of.

I have been called unsaved by Amill's also. so I feel your pain

It should not happen. I agree. We are all learning.