22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

good God I hope no one is doing that. This is not a salvation issue.

Yes, someone did that. Davy told Paul that he was not a true Christian merely because Paul didn't agree with Davy's Premil view. That is completely out of line.

 

[marks]

And where exactly does it say to trust and respect everyone?

Who is my neighbor?

BTW . . . I'm talking about respect. I've not said you are to trust everyone. Why did you add that?

I quoted Jesus, "love your enemies". You are looking for a loophole?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, fine. Agree to disagree then. But, do you have any thoughts about my question about there being parallels in the book of Revelation rather than it all (or mostly all) being chronological from beginning to end? Have you ever considered this?

Parallels, overlaps, some places that don’t overlap, some things sequential and some not but rather jumping backwards and forwards in time, some gaps of time where we aren’t told there’s a gap of time, you name it, it’s all there!
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not sure who this is directed to. I think Jesus gave us the answer No one knows. not even the son of man.

No, no, no. I wasn't asking for a date and time. I meant when does she think the end of the age will occur in relation to His second coming. If you read my entire post, it should be clear that is what I meant.

 

[marks]

Regardless of exactly when He was glorified, is it referring to a long period of time for Him to be glorified as you think "the hour" in John 5:28-29 does? No. So, I don't see that you're proving anything here.

What I'm showing you is that "hour" and "time" are used differently in some cases, and that "the hour" can signify a larger set of events than just marking time on a clock.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because that helps to confirm that his interpretation of that passage is correct.

How could we read it any other way. I am not sure again why I would need another scripture it makes no sense. Either John meant what he said, or he does not..

It's not the only passage that speaks of Christ reigning, or of His people reigning with him as priests of Him and His Father, or of Satan's binding, or of the resurrection of the dead, or of the judgment. So, why would it be the only passage in scripture to teach that there is a long period of time between the bodily resurrection and the judgment of the saved and the bodily resurrection and judgment of the lost?

I agree, it is not the only passage, but we are speaking of this one passage. How could you interpret it any other way without changing the meaning of words or trying to make John say something other what what he said

Because that contradicts a lot of other scripture. Is it important to you to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict any other scripture?

It does not contradict any other scripture in my view.. So you will have to be more detailed as to why you think it contradicts other scriptures.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, no, no. I wasn't asking for a date and time. I meant when does she think the end of the age will occur in relation to His second coming. If you read my entire post, it should be clear that is what I meant.

like I said, I can not see who you are responding to. I probably have her on ignore..

His second coming IS the end of the age, if that is what you are asking. Jesus made that clean in Matt 24..

 

[marks]

I guess we're playing scripture tag now.

Titus 1:12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.

I'm not playing games, I don't do that.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, someone did that. Davy told Paul that he was not a true Christian merely because Paul didn't agree with Davy's Premil view. That is completely out of line.

yes, it is completely out of line.. I agree

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is my neighbor?

BTW . . . I'm talking about respect. I've not said you are to trust everyone. Why did you add that?

I quoted Jesus, "love your enemies". You are looking for a loophole?

I quoted a passage that talks about sharply rebuking believers who are out of line. Should we ignore passages like that? Sometimes the way to love your enemies is to rebuke them for their own good. Someone needs to let that guy know his judgmental attitude towards other believers is wrong. An unbeliever isn't going to do that, so why not us? Also, love and respect are not the same thing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Parallels, overlaps, some places that don’t overlap, some things sequential and some not but rather jumping backwards and forwards in time, some gaps of time where we aren’t told there’s a gap of time, you name it, it’s all there!

Well, I'm glad you recognize that, at least. Obviously, we don't see the same parallels, though.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I quoted a passage that talks about sharply rebuking believers who are out of line. Should we ignore passages like that? Sometimes the way to love your enemies is to rebuke them for their own good. Someone needs to let that guy know his judgmental attitude towards other believers is wrong. An unbeliever isn't going to do that, so why not us? Also, love and respect are not the same thing.

the problem with this is in areas of question. such as this, Just because you think we are out of line because we believe in premill does not mean you can use that passage to rebuke us.. Not does it give us the right to rebuke you

Sadly to many people use this passage to rebuke people merely because they do not agree with them. that is not what that passage was meant to do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I'm showing you is that "hour" and "time" are used differently in some cases, and that "the hour" can signify a larger set of events than just marking time on a clock.

But, two events separated by 1000+ years? No, I don't think it can be used in that way. I believe that is quite farfetched.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

the problem with this is in areas of question. such as this, Just because you think we are out of line because we believe in premill does not mean you can use that passage to rebuke us.. Not does it give us the right to rebuke you

No, no, no! You keep misunderstanding me. I was not talking about rebuking him for believing in Premil, I was talking about rebuking him for judging others just because they don't agree with him. I would never say that someone is out of line and deserves to be rebuked just because they don't agree with my end times doctrine. That would be ridiculous.

Maybe it's because you've come into this discussion late that you're not understanding what I'm saying, but, honestly, this is getting to be a bit frustrating. If you're not clear on what I'm saying, please, just ask for clarification.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, no, no! You keep misunderstanding me. I was not talking about rebuking him for believing in Premil, I was talking about rebuking him for judging others just because they don't agree with him.

Maybe it's because you've come into this discussion late that you're not understanding what I'm saying, but, honestly, this is getting to be a bit frustrating. If you're not clear on what I'm saying, please, just ask for clarification.

it can be a bit confusing.. Forgive me

 

[Truth7t7]

Paul Malcomson said: ↑
I hope you understand what you believe because I do not. I have presented Scriptures that forbid your claims. They remain unaddressed (as usual). The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when Jesus appears. How can one survive?

Much love!

No human body survives the second coming day of the Lord, all men's work will be tried by the Lord's last day fire in Judgement

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And when exactly do you think that will happen? When do you believe the end of the age will come?

Honestly, this is getting to be a little frustrating. I asked you if "you believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3)?" and, for some reason, you didn't answer it. Should I assume your answer to the question is no then? If so, then what is your understanding of the question the disciples asked in Matthew 24:3? That they were asking about two different events, with His coming being one event and the end of the age occurring at a completely separate time than His coming? If so, where do you think Jesus talked about the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse?

I think it will happen at the end of the thousand years.
I guess if I was pressed to say when exactly the “end of the age” is, I would say after the millennium, when there is no more death, no more sun and moon and the new heavens and earth come down out of heaven.

As for when Jesus returns, I think He returns before the tribulation to gather all for the wedding, returns partway through the tribulation in wrath, and is present during the millennium. I guess my current thinking is that He is already present on earth when satan is released again, gathers an army, then the army is destroyed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No human body survives the second coming day of the Lord, all men's work will be tried by the Lord's last day fire in Judgement

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

yet Jesus said whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Only those who have recieved the mark will be killed. Those who do not and endure will enter the kingdom Age with Jesus where he will gather the Elect. seperate the nations. and rule from Jerusalem. Even punishing the nations who do not come to Jerusalem once a year by not giving them any rain.

This is not eternity.. We will not need rain in eternity. nor will we need to be punished

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How could we read it any other way. I am not sure again why I would need another scripture it makes no sense. Either John meant what he said, or he does not..

Meant what he said? What does that even mean. I believe he meant what he said, too, but I still disagree with your understanding of what he said. Why are you acting as if the book of Revelation should be read no differently than reading a news article?

I agree, it is not the only passage, but we are speaking of this one passage. How could you interpret it any other way without changing the meaning of words or trying to make John say something other what what he said

That's not something I can just answer briefly. We have to look at scripture as a whole to see what it says about Christ reigning, about the resurrection of the dead and the judgment of people. To me, scripture repeatedly teaches one general resurrection of all of the dead as well as one judgment day rather than two. I'm not going to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other Bible passages.

It does not contradict any other scripture in my view.. So you will have to be more detailed as to why you think it contradicts other scriptures.

I have been doing that for quite awhile in this thread already and I'm getting a bit tired of it at this point. Maybe you could read through more of the thread to understand where Amils are coming from? Have you never been part of a Premil vs. Amil debate before? That's fine if you haven't, but I don't feel like repeating things I've already been saying the past couple hours in this thread again.

 

[marks]

Is the following love and respect in your estimation? This is just one day of insults on this forum from you and your Premil colleagues towards us Amils.

I'm sorry, when have I insulted you?

Much love!