The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.

[APAK]

You are mistranslating that verse.

Can you provide your translation or interpretation of John 17:1-5? I would like to know what was said and to whom Jesus spoke to. A short commentary may be in order. Thanks.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

However, there is a ranking...an order to heavenly things that begins with the stature of God.

Jesus made the claim that the Father is greater than I as man, a servant who was obedient, who relinquished His power and glory and emptied Himself. After He ascended, His glory was given back to Him. But He was fully God while fully man.
The order to heavenly things before the foundation of the world was Jesus created everything!
(Col. 1:16-17)
The order of heavenly things AND earthly things is Jesus is in full authority!

We are to grow into the full stature of Christ. Is that the same stature as the Father...? No

Jesus and Father are one. He is the exact expression of His Father. Being conformed into the likeness of Christ is no less than the likeness of the Father.

Jesus Christ is a small enough piece of God that we can fit into

Jesus would say, "Judge me by my size do you em?"
There is no perception of Jesus that can be put in terms of our concept of the physical realm ...."small enough"? THE All Mighty God WHO IS IN CONTROL of the entire universe and heaven ... small? I think you need to retract that one.

 

[GEN2REV]

Can you provide your translation or interpretation of John 17:1-5? I would like to know what was said and to whom Jesus spoke to. A short commentary may be in order. Thanks.

Do you know anything about chess?

 

[APAK]

Do you know anything about chess?

Thank you for your answer to my question concerning your view of John 17:1-5. It is well noted

 

[GEN2REV]

Thank you for your answer to my question concerning your view of John 17:1-5. It is well noted

No skin off my hide.

The point of my question was to save us both time from taking your long route to get to the same place we could've gotten in a much shorter time if we took my route.

This is even better.

If you can't provide a single verse, from the rest of the 31,101 verses in Scripture, to support your opinion that Jesus is stating that the Father is the only true God in that verse, you're just as bankrupt in your argument as the rest who are arguing for it.

There are many verses to prove otherwise and if you can read Hebrews 1, specifically verses 8-10, and not see that God Himself declares Jesus to be God, you have zero credibility in any discussion of the Bible.

I hope that is well noted.

 

[Waiting on him]

No skin off my hide.

The point of my question was to save us both time from taking your long route to get to the same place we could've gotten in a much shorter time if we took my route.

This is even better.

If you can't provide a single verse, from the rest of the 31,101 verses in Scripture, to support your opinion that Jesus is stating that the Father is the only true God in that verse, you're just as bankrupt in your argument as the rest who are arguing for it.

There are many verses to prove otherwise and if you can read Hebrews 1, specifically verses 8-10, and not see that God Himself declares Jesus to be God, you have zero credibility in any discussion of the Bible.

I hope that is well noted.

I see it, Jesus’s God has anointed him with the oil of gladness. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Waiting on him]

Thank you for your answer to my question concerning your view of John 17:1-5. It is well noted

Seems as if there was a lot of anointing going on in the New Testament. I wonder if the posters also believe the apostles of Jesus were God, I only ask because they also became sons of God, yet not one of them called Jesus Father. Anyway seems odd to me they would call Jesus Christ and not Father.


Acts 14:17 KJV
[17] Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

 

[GEN2REV]

I see it, Jesus’s God has anointed him with the oil of gladness. Thanks for pointing this out.

Yeah, no problem there, buddy.

not one of them called Jesus Father. Anyway seems odd to me they would call Jesus Christ and not Father.

Jesus called Himself the Father.
John 14:9

Can you see that too? :)

You're welcome.

 

[JunChosen]

As usual, it was me who started this thread re the Deity and Triune Godhead but things have escalated way out of control.
Shalom to you and family
J

Isn't that what happens when false prophets in ravening wolves come in, in sheep's clothing? [Mat. 7:15-18]

Johann, you are not alone. I, too, am a product with English as a second language. You write much better than I do. But we are in the market place after all therefore, we ought to obey the command of Jesus to bring forth the true Gospel to all nations (to the lost sheep of the house of Israel). Matthew 28:19-20

To God Be The Glory

 

[Waiting on him]

Yeah, no problem there, buddy.Jesus called Himself the Father.
John 14:9

Can you see that too? :)

You're welcome.

No.. I don’t see it that way, we have too view the whole word of God. Jesus as scripture states is the image of the invisible God.


Colossians 1:15 KJV
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
my ?????s are this

1. when was Jesus born?
2. Where you born, or did you pre exist?
3. When did Gods creation begin?

 

[JunChosen]

[QUOTE="Pearl, post: 1316166, member: 8155"]To inherit eternal life we have to come to God through Jesus in repentance and be open to the changes the Holy Spirit will make within us. Saying it is not enough it has to be a genuine love and genuine repentance[/QUOTE]

How will you resolve the above in light of Romans 3:10-11?

To God Be The Glory

 

[GEN2REV]

• when was Jesus born?

• He was born physically, He wasn't born spiritually; He always existed with God.
• John 1:1; John 1:14

• Where you born, or did you pre exist?

  Irrelevant.

• When did Gods creation begin?

  In the beginning. And Jesus was there and Jesus created everything.
• John 1:1
• Hebrews 1:2
• Hebrews 1:10

And when everything else perishes, Jesus will stay the same. The same as what? The same as ever because He's God And God doesn't change.
Hebrews 1:12
Malachi 3:6

 

[APAK]

No skin off my hide.

The point of my question was to save us both time from taking your long route to get to the same place we could've gotten in a much shorter time if we took my route.

This is even better.

If you can't provide a single verse, from the rest of the 31,101 verses in Scripture, to support your opinion that Jesus is stating that the Father is the only true God in that verse, you're just as bankrupt in your argument as the rest who are arguing for it.

There are many verses to prove otherwise and if you can read Hebrews 1, specifically verses 8-10, and not see that God Himself declares Jesus to be God, you have zero credibility in any discussion of the Bible.

I hope that is well noted.

Please do not assume you know me or know what is good for both of us. It would seem what is good for you at this moment however is for you to figure out why you are so abrasive, crude and wild with your hyperbolic language. Is this your loud big defensive move as in chess to deflect the glaring onslaught of truth that you do not understand John 17:1-5? It is apparently so. And you would then lose as you think it is all a game to you. You are way over your head here. This is not from pride it's from observed experience and knowledge I have gathered over time, and from your posts for sure.

And now you have the audacity to detail me to answer another area of scripture that you also do not understand. Yes, I believe this to be true.

Look, the reality here is this, I can generated easily a 2-4 page commentary today for John 17:1-5 and Hebrews 1:1- 10 that will clearly show you Jesus is not God Almighty, and you then will not read it or will disagree with it with more crude and primitive language because it won't read Jesus = God.

If you ever decide to provide me an answer to my query of John17:1-5, then I will in turn promise to provide you with mine on Hebrews 1:1-10, pronto.

Until then, happy trails and there are quite a few out there that get folks lost in not knowing or seeing the forest from the trees right in front of their sight.

 

[stephen64]

Have you noticed that the ones that write generally the 'loudest' and are void of presenting any scripture commentary, and with fruitless zeal, presenting only the same recycled and canned scripture, are the same ones who never want to to discuss you input, only theirs. They are desperate to be heard to convince you they are right without even an ounce of credibility, to defend their doctrine that they have been engrained with, absent of the spirit's approval or validation.

They want to get the last word in, to create for themselves an atmosphere of some sort of victory like they have won something over you. Whilst you on the other hand are perfectly happy to discuss their inputs along with your own in confidence and without too much fanfare.

The above sums up well the kind of debates I have had over the years concerning this subject. The scripture you place before them is ignored, and you do have the plainest of scripture concerning this subject. They are only willing to discuss their own content, which they have to theologise to try and overturn the plainest of scripture on this subject you present. When you do address their scripture and prove them wrong, they quickly go onto other scripture, it becomes a debate where you can only actually discuss what they want to discuss. I have grown weary of that, so I far less indulge them in such one sided conversations these days. So now I try to narrow it down to what a person must believe concerning the title of Christ to be saved. I'm finding now, most deflect from answering, as they have probably read previous posts. If they say you must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved you can respond. Then you believe a person will be condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. In all honesty I cannot fathom how anyone could have such an absurd view. Theology gone mad in my opinion. Its very different in the churches themselves in my experience, you get none of this.

 

[GEN2REV]

@APAK @stephen64

It's pointless to continue any further trying to convince me to believe your opinions that Jesus is not God. There's no amount of elaborating on that one single verse, or anything else the two of you could do, BUT ...

... you could then move on to explaining to everyone who you believe Jesus IS then.

You guys want people to listen to your views on this subject so tell us: who and what is Jesus if not God?

Is He just a mortal?

Is He a lower god than the Father?

You guys can't be embracing a trinity perspective because the trinity declares that Jesus, the Father and the Spirit are equal; that they are all equally God.

So, help us understand. Who is Jesus if not God?

If your answer is that He's just the Son of God, in a 'mortal-turned-divine' sense, then how do you explain John 1:1, John 1:14, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10, etc.?

I'm willing to listen to what you guys have to say in that regard because I can't fathom how your doctrine could be structured to coincide with all other well established doctrine and I'm very interested to learn something new.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus made the claim that the Father is greater than I as man, a servant who was obedient, who relinquished His power and glory and emptied Himself. After He ascended, His glory was given back to Him. But He was fully God while fully man.
The order to heavenly things before the foundation of the world was Jesus created everything!
(Col. 1:16-17)
The order of heavenly things AND earthly things is Jesus is in full authority!



Jesus and Father are one. He is the exact expression of His Father. Being conformed into the likeness of Christ is no less than the likeness of the Father.




Jesus would say, "Judge me by my size do you em?"
There is no perception of Jesus that can be put in terms of our concept of the physical realm ...."small enough"? THE All Mighty God WHO IS IN CONTROL of the entire universe and heaven ... small? I think you need to retract that one.

I agree with all you've said.

Just want to note that we can conform to the likeness of Jesus,,, but not of God, which, of course, includes the 2nd Person of the Godhead/Trinity.
We cannot be like God. Only like Jesus when He walked this earth.

 

[Pearl]

[QUOTE="Pearl, post: 1316166, member: 8155"]To inherit eternal life we have to come to God through Jesus in repentance and be open to the changes the Holy Spirit will make within us. Saying it is not enough it has to be a genuine love and genuine repentance

How will you resolve the above in light of Romans 3:10-11?

To God Be The Glory[/QUOTE]
If you don't believe, you don't believe.

 

[farouk]

I should take note of a post?
Whose post?
It supersedes the written Word?

@GodsGrace No way, right?

 

[Pearl]

@GodsGrace No way, right?

Right farouk, nothing supercedes the written word of God.

 

[APAK]

The above sums up well the kind of debates I have had over the years concerning this subject. The scripture you place before them is ignored, and you do have the plainest of scripture concerning this subject. They are only willing to discuss their own content, which they have to theologise to try and overturn the plainest of scripture on this subject you present. When you do address their scripture and prove them wrong, they quickly go onto other scripture, it becomes a debate where you can only actually discuss what they want to discuss. I have grown weary of that, so I far less indulge them in such one sided conversations these days. So now I try to narrow it down to what a person must believe concerning the title of Christ to be saved. I'm finding now, most deflect from answering, as they have probably read previous posts. If they say you must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved you can respond. Then you believe a person will be condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. In all honesty I cannot fathom how anyone could have such an absurd view. Theology gone mad in my opinion. Its very different in the churches themselves in my experience, you get none of this.

On that last point you mentioned, and you have brought it up before. In my opinion, Internet Trinitarians have gone extreme in their doctrinal views. My Dad who has passes 12 years now was a RC and spoke broken English when he came over to England and reunited with his family during and after WWII. I believe he never knew of a trinity and its concept, and I would wager he would not believe anyone who said Jesus was the same or equivalent to his Father. In fact I know he would get very upset and walk out.

I do not know all of your beliefs for sure, although I see that you can disagree and still move on and leave the light on your porch and a welcome mat below in front of your door. Having confidence and faith in the word of God as we continue to learn, with the spirit of truth within us, makes all the difference.

Welcome to the forum Stephen