I never claimed that Jesus - call him by his name - is the Father. But he is God - God the Son.
The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.
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You have to turn Jesus words on their head to mean something completely different than he plainly stated. If you call that scriptural, we will have to disagree, for I do not
Yes one God three persons - the Trinity - the Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is quite difficult for a lot of people to understand that and it seems you are one of them. But you don't have to understand - it isn't logical - you just need to have faith and accept it.
We - humans/mankind - are made in God's image and we all have three parts to our make up. We have a physical body, we have a soul or spirit and we also have a brain, without which neither of our other personalities would be able to function. We are made in God's image. Now do you think it means we look like him? Or do you think it means something else?
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I'm sure your human intellect gave you a grasp of your belief. However, you are contradicting Jesus words. The Holy Spirit would not, and could not lead you to do that
Behold
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stephen64, You are reading the verse like its a dictionary.
That is why you can't see it. as scripture has to be discerned and compared with scripture.
People like you, Ferris Bueller, GEN2REV, and a few others, post your one true verse, that you can't understand, to try to make it teach the entire bible.
Thats a FAIL.
Look, at you verse...
Notice...""'God Sent Jesus Christ"....= as the WORD, who was ""in the Beginning with God", ... =INTO the Virgin's Womb, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
See that?
So, the END RESULT of the Pre-Incarnate Christ being SENT by The Father, is that you received..."GOD Manifested in the Flesh"...
= 1 Timothy 3:16....on earth.
Look at this now..
"NOW this is ETERNAL LIFE"....... >THAT THEY KNOW YOU...<. and notice stepehen64 then BOTH ARE LISTED.... as ONE..
This is explained again by this verse.....>Jesus Speaking..>"Before Abraham was born.........I AM".
THis is why Jesus told YOU...>"if you've seen ME, you've SEEN THE FATHER".
"I AM"< is Jesus defining Himself AS GOD to the Religious fakirs......>Just as GOD defined Himself as "I AM" to Moses when GOD talked to him from the burning bush.
SAME "I AM".
This is why Thomas the Apostle kneeling, said To Jesus, the first time he saw Him Resurrected....>"my Lord, and my GOD".
Guess you didnt take notice of this...
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
..before you reason this away...
Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
...before you reason this away..
Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Problematic if you are a strict monotheist.
Not so with the Triune Godhead..and before you reason this away..Godhead is right in Scriptures.
Echad, yet distinct and even the ancient rabbinical rabbis acknowledged this,..also problematic if you are a strict KJV-Onlyist.
Not contentious, just stating what the scriptures says, Perfect Tense.
J.
In my experience, only on the internet do we get this. I can give you many more than one verse. But you cannot give me any plain verse of scripture that states Christ is the one true God. But, you can theologise can't you, and that, I am sure, is your favourite pass time
Titus 2.13: " Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".
I have probably discussed this subject at greater length than you over the years. So my only real concern here is the belief people believe concerning Christ's title to inherit eternal life, but as you wrote out the post I will address John20:28
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.
Psalms110:1
But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me Luke1:43
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! John20:28
What had they all in common? They were all Israelites!
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Ex24:9-11
No man hath seen God at any time 1John4:12
YHWH (יהוה)
Seen, yet not seen.
Not seen.
Exodus 33:18-23 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.”
...“you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
(ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את-פני כי לא-יראני האדם וחי)
...and while my glory passes by... but my face shall not be seen.”
Yet seen
Exodus 33:11 Thus YHWH (יהוה) used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
(וגבר יהוה אל-משה פנים אל פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל-רעהו)
Seen by: Hagar
ותקרא שם-יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי
Genesis 16:7-14
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) found her...
And he said, “Hagar...
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) also said to her,
“I will surely multiply your offspring...”
Hagar recognised that it was God speaking to her.
So she called the name of YHWH (יהוה) who spoke to her,
“You are a God of seeing,” for she said,
“Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.
” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi (באר לחי ראי)
Seen by: Abraham
Genesis 22:11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17–18
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) speaks to Abraham:
...YHWH (יהוה) called to [Abraham]... He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.
The Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) identifies himself as YHWH (יהוה)
...the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה) called to Abraham a second time... and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares YHWH (יהוה), because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son, ...I will greatly bless you... because you have obeyed my voice.”
Whose voice?
The one speaking - the Angel of YHWH (מלאך יהוה), who is YHWH (יהוה)
Genesis 18-19
Genesis 18 begins by saying YHWH (יהוה) appeared to Abraham (וירא אליו יהוה).
Genesis 18:2 tells us how YHWH (יהוה) appeared to him.
He raised his eyes (וישא עיניו) and saw three men (וירא והנה שלשה אנשים).
It is interesting that in Genesis 18:3 he addresses one of the men using the title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) reserved only for YHWH (אדנָ֗י אם-נא מצאתי חן בעיניך אל-נא תעבר מעל עבדך)
And we know he is addressing one of the men because it's all masculine singular.
It's only in Genesis 18:4-5 that he addresses all three (רחצו רגליכם והשענו).
So in this introduction we are informed that
YHWH appeared to Abraham.
Of the three men Abraham addressed,
one is Adonay (אדנָ֗י), a title reserved exclusively for YHWH.
The three remain under the tree and are entertained by Abraham (Genesis 18:8).
(ויקח חמאה וחלב ובן-הבקר אשר עשה ויתן לפניהם והוא עמד עליהם תחת העץ ויאכלו)
They ask where Sarah might be and then one of them, YHWH (יהוה) speaks in Genesis 18:9 and says he will return the following year. (ויאמרו אליו איה שרה אשתך ויאמר הנה באהל)
We know it's YHWH because Genesis 21:1-2 tells us
"So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him."
Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.
Who was she listening to?
The three men under the tree,
One of whom was Adonay (אדנָ֗י).
When she laughed at what God had just said to Abraham, the identity of Adonay was made plain in Genesis 18:13,
"YHWH (יהוה) said to Abraham..." (ויאמר יהוה אל-אברהם)
The three men got up to go in Genesis 18:16
and Abraham walked with them (ויקמו משם האנשים וישקפו ואברהם הלך עמם).
YHWH (יהוה) spoke again from Genesis 18:17 (ויהוה אמר וינר יהוה).
Genesis 18:22 tells us that:
The men turned away towards Sodom (ויפנו משם האנשים וילכו סדמה) but Abraham stayed with YHWH (יהוה) (ואברהם עודנו עמד לפמני יהוה)
How do we know only two left?
Because Genesis 19:1 tells us that two messengers (שני המלאכים שני) arrived at Sodom.
Where was the third?
Back with Abraham obviously.
After some haggling about Sodom YHWH (יהוה) eventually left and Abraham returned to his tent (וילך יהוה).
God walked off to join the others.
YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) is mentioned then in Genesis 19:17 outside Sodom where he has rejoined the other two (ויאמר המלט).
Lot answered Adonay (אדנָ֗י), "... no my Lord..." ( אל-נא אדנָ֗י).
Genesis 19:19 contains words in the masculine singular.
Lot pleads with YHWH /Adonay (יהוה/אדנָ֗י) .
Then in Genesis 19:24
YHWH (יהוה), one of the men, addressed earlier with the divine title Adonay (אדנָ֗י) is described as... YHWH (יהוה).
And YHWH (יהוה) standing there causes fire to rain down from YHWH (יהוה) in heaven.
Amazing, is it not? Not seen, yet seen.
J.
No offence, but all you can do here is try and theologise scripture to overturn the plainly written word:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1Cor8:6-8
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all
1Cor15:24-28
There is really no point to this anymore. As I keep saying, I have the plain scripture, you must theologise against it
God bless
You came back too quickly which shows me a deeply ingrained pre-conceived mindset, I can show you many more examples but will refrain.
We are commanded to test/dokimazete the spirits, they come in all sorts of forms.
Shalom
J.
I have noticed you are not hear to learn and I have shown you that Christ Jesus IS God and now your mind is closed..that God WAS seen in the OT, and now you disagree.
You seldom quote scriptures because you don't hold to the Triune Godhead, not that I care, that is your prerogative, but do take care, there are sincere, genuine believers who are seeking the truth, this is not a hide and seek game and many are playing games here.
J.
The only difference between us is, I accept the plainest statements in the bible on this subject, it is a pity, that so many spend so much time theologising against them. But as I previously said, this is mainly an internet thing. In my experience, over decades, roughly 50% of people who attend trinitarian churches solely believe Christ to be the Son of God, not the one true God. And over 90% would accept anyone as a christian if they solely believed Jesus was the Son of God
So why the huge difference between the churches and the internet. I am only making a general comment here, not specific to you. Because people spent vast amounts of time studying theology, they revel in it, doctrine is everything to them. you may say what is wrong with that? Quite a lot really. It becomes all consuming, it simply becomes a head knowledge, and much of it is built on past theologians.
None of the Apostles plain stated Christ was the one true God in their letters, in fact I have quoted the opposite to you. So either they did not believe it, or they let their readers down terribly by not plainly and clearly stating it. Im sorry, but insisting on what the teachers of the NT did not plainly teach is a wrong set of priorities. But, its great here, endless discussing/theologising. for those so inclined
God Bless
Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ; not two divine persons, only one, are here intended; for the word: rendered "appearing", is never used of God the Father, only of the second person; and the pro-positive article is not set before the word "Saviour", as it would, if two distinct persons were designed; and the copulative "and" is exegetical, and may he rendered thus, "and the glorious appearing of the great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ"; who, in the next verse, is said to give himself for the redemption of his people: so that here is a very illustrious proof of the true and proper deity of Christ, who will appear at his second coming; for of that appearance are the, words to be understood, as the great God, in all the glories and perfections of his divine nature; as well as a Saviour, which is mentioned to show that he will appear to the salvation of his people, which he will then put them in the full possession of; and that the brightness of his divine Majesty will not make them afraid: and this appearance will be a glorious one; for Christ will come in his own glory, in the glory of his deity, particularly his omniscience and omnipotence will be very conspicuous; and in his glory as Mediator, which will be beheld by all the saints; and in his glory as a Judge, invested with power and authority from his Father, which will be terrible to sinners; and in the glory of his human nature, with which it is now crowned; and in his Father's glory, in the same he had with him before the world was, and which is the same with his, and in that which he will receive from him as man and Mediator, and as the Judge of the whole earth;
You really seem to downplay the fact, as it stands written in scriptures, that Christ is God.
But it is neither here nor there.
Nice "chatting" with you now that I know where you stand, a KJV-Onlyist.
J.
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