Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?

[Episkopos]

That's because sinlessness is the standard. Have you not read Rom. 10:4 and the plethora of other NT passages in the epistles that teach a Christian is obligated to follow Christ's example, take on the mind of Christ, or allow Christ to relive His earthly life through them? Why do you think those passages say such things if Christians weren't supposed to focus on being sinless? Christianity is not another false religion where people are only required to feel good about themselves. If t hat's the kind of religion what you want, Hinduism does the job pretty well.
I'm pretty sure you don't realize how ironic your words are. While you speak about people misinterpreting scripture, you imply a Christian isn't supposed to strive towards moral perfection. The obligation to strive towards moral perfection is taught throughout the OT and NT. Literally nobody added that doctrine or made it up because Gen. 1:26-27 explicitly shows human beings were made to acquire God's character. I could also post a multitude of OT and NT verses where God Himself tells someone to be blameless in His sight, a person asked God to help them be blameless in His sight, or an apostle told a Christian audience that God requires them to be blameless to concretely prove this doctrine is taught throughout the Bible.

Christ Himself stated in Matt 5:48 that moral perfection is a standard His followers are supposed to strive towards. That statement is not going to stop being true because people would rather practice a religion that only requires them to feel good about themselves. Christ said the way to eternal life is difficult and that few would find it for a reason.

This is almost good except you are not describing a walk that is by grace. There is no striving against sin unless one is striving to enter INTO Christ where there is no sin.

When we put on Christ we put on His perfection. Otherwise, we are still walking in our own strength.

 

[ChristisGod]

Can you just imagine if for just 1 week every single thought, word, deed, action was recorded for the whole world to see those who claim sinlessness. They would be humiliated and come to grips with their self deceit .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Might I suggest that because Abraham believed God, as the word says, and the result was a fulfillment of promise, that the same can be said for any and all of us who believe. You said that the word says Christ takes away our sins. How many of us actually believe that sufficiently that it becomes a reality on day to day living? Many on this forum (and likely other forms as well...I don't know, one is sufficient punishment enough for me), believe we will continue to actively sin until the day we die. I suggest the reason for that is twofold.
One, a lack of faith in a, the power of God to accomplish such a task, or b, the unwillingness of God to do so.
Second, too many have bought into the Catholic concept of original sin, the definition of which is that we have inherited not just a fallen weakened nature as a result of sin, but sin itself. We are born sinners, and therefore we cannot cease to be sinners.
Definition B is that sin is and always has been a choice. And we have the power in Christ to choose not to.

I agree.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When we put on Christ we put on His perfection. Otherwise, we are still walking in our own strength.

I would say one correction. We come to Him by choice knowing we are weak sinners and can never, in ourselves, our own works, be good enough for heaven. We don't put on Christ; from our honesty of heart and our recognition of our complete helplessness and sin, He comes inside us so that we have His power, the divine power of grace, the true definition, taking away that old nature of sin and giving us His divine nature. Now we are one. He in me, and I in Him, called abiding. Now we act like Him naturally.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'll be off the computer for a while. Getting my computer upgraded from Windows 7 to 10, but having Best Buy do it for me seeing as I've got there insurance. Talk to you all later.

Behave everybody!

 

[Tong2020]

Jesus said in John 8:32-36 and 1 John 3:4-9 that He would take away our sin. And He does.

Jesus also said to "Be perfect, as My Father in heaven is perfect." But most scoff and say, that doesn't mean in this lifetime. Why? Their own experience.

But some have not experienced this life changing event called the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is what makes us born again, and they see no change in themselves. So instead of examining themselves, and seeing their weakness of nature, and ask Jesus to take away that evil, weak nature, they don't believe what Jesus said, and twist His words to match their own experience.

So what is it going to be. Jesus, or your experience? The time is short, so get to the bottom of this eternal question. We all better work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is obvious to me that many church fathers twisted the truth to match their own experience, but they are just men. I believe Jesus.

Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?

Definitely Jesus! Jesus who? Him whom the apostles bears witness to and preached, according to their to their testimony and the gospel they preached as written in scriptures some 2000 years ago.

Tong
R4629

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus said in John 8:32-36 and 1 John 3:4-9 that He would take away our sin. And He does.

Jesus also said to "Be perfect, as My Father in heaven is perfect." But most scoff and say, that doesn't mean in this lifetime. Why? Their own experience.

But some have not experienced this life changing event called the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is what makes us born again, and they see no change in themselves. So instead of examining themselves, and seeing their weakness of nature, and ask Jesus to take away that evil, weak nature, they don't believe what Jesus said, and twist His words to match their own experience.

So what is it going to be. Jesus, or your experience? The time is short, so get to the bottom of this eternal question. We all better work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is obvious to me that many church fathers twisted the truth to match their own experience, but they are just men. I believe Jesus.

As long as we are in the flesh we will sin, only Christ was perfect ,that's why we ask for forgiveness .

Do you think you are perfect and will not sin after being born again

 

[Episkopos]

As long as we are in the flesh we will sin, only Christ was perfect ,that's why we ask for forgiveness .

Do you think you are perfect and will not sin after being born again

As long as we abide in Christ, we don't sin. IN Him is no sin.
People have not thought through many of the doctrines they have come to accept as if they were true. One of the gravest errors coming out of the Reformation is the idea that it is possible to be both holy and sinful simultaneously. A sinful holiness?

How is the idea of "imputed righteousness" (alien righteousness) not just a claim to be cleansed on the outside of the cup while leaving the inside dirty? (Matt. 23:25) Isn't that what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing? But a true covering of God's righteousness causes "rivers of life" to flow from the inward man so that no impurity can be introduced from within or from without. His covering over us is His holiness which makes us holy.

As long as we remain under God's covering of righteousness we cannot sin. We must leave His covering in order to fulfill our own desires.

 

[Episkopos]

I would say one correction. We come to Him by choice knowing we are weak sinners and can never, in ourselves, our own works, be good enough for heaven. We don't put on Christ; from our honesty of heart and our recognition of our complete helplessness and sin, He comes inside us so that we have His power, the divine power of grace, the true definition, taking away that old nature of sin and giving us His divine nature. Now we are one. He in me, and I in Him, called abiding. Now we act like Him naturally.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Rom 13:14)

 

[Lambano]

In my experience , the open-ended prescriptive commands (to love thy neighbor, to love thy enemies because God loves His enemies), are far more difficult to keep than the proscriptive "thou shalt nots". Justice, Mercy, and the Love of God - these are the weightier aspects of the Bible.

In the eternal battle between the "Now" and the "Not Yet", I understand sinlessness as a promise that is deferred to when Jesus comes back. Why God decided to do it that way, I can only speculate.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

(Bonus points to the first one to identify the referenced scriptures.)

 

[marks]

Yes, but sin is not from the body, but from our mind and emotions/spirit and soul which are reborn. The old nature is carnal and called being in the flesh.

You are not addressing the Scriptures which say otherwise. You have redefined sarx to fit your view, so far as I can tell.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The nature of a lion is to kill and eat meat.

Because it is a lion, a physical creature with a brain and instincts for it to do that. Not because there some invisible "pattern of behavior", some "outside nature" other than the nature of the beast.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But if you say that flesh is only our body, then you really don't know what is reborn and what our nature is.

Put some Scripture to it instead of empty words.

Much love!

 

[marks]

marks, think about this.

You think about this. Or better yet read it and believe what you read.

There is no "flesh nature" that is separate from your flesh. Think about that. Why do we call it "flesh"? And why do you call it a "flesh nature"?

There is no separate "flesh nature" in the Bible, only in bad doctrine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Which nature Jesus had. Otherwise He couldn't have been tempted on all points such as we were.

If Jesus were in sinful flesh, well, things wouldn't have worked out the same . . .

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

If Jesus were in sinful flesh, well, things wouldn't have worked out the same . . .

Much love!

Sinful flesh... Fallen flesh... Or both. Either way, it had to be the same as ours. Otherwise it alters the gospel.

 

[marks]

Sinful flesh... Fallen flesh... Or both. Either way, it had to be the same as ours. Otherwise it alters the gospel.

Romans 8:3 KJV
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

As I understand this, Jesus was a new Adam, the Last Man. That Jesus was not born from Adam's genes, but received a body made for Him, outside of Adamic ancestry, and therefore is not corrupted by Adamic sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm saying flesh in this context of Paul is nature. You only believe it is body. So I'm asking you how you think we are not in our body when in the Spirit. Doesn't make sense.

Let's go back to the Bible.

Romans 6:5-8 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

What is the "body of sin"?

Romans 6:12 KJV
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

How is sin able to reign in your mortal body?

Romans 8:10 KJV
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

How is the body "dead because of sin"?

Romans 7:23-25 KJV
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why does Paul call his body "the body of this death"?

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So I'm asking you how you think we are not in our body when in the Spirit. Doesn't make sense.

I've answered this about 3 times . . . It's where our life is from. You are either the original flesh being, the sinner child of Adam, or you are the new spirit child of God. Whoever you are, you live in your corrupt flesh body. And the Bible describes you either as in flesh or on spirit. And nowhere does the Bible teach flesh is other than you flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks

We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.

What is born again and we are no longer in is our old nature. What makes up our new nature is both our soul and spirit - our mind and emotions/heart. Verse 10 addresses our outer shell, our BODY. It must also die, and when resurrected it also will put on immortality.

John 3:6 KJV
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of flesh . . . is flesh.

Much love!