Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

[GodsGrace]

That view is not scriptural. Jesus was “sent” as the redeemer of mankind….he spoke about being “sent” to accomplish his Father’s will many times…..please tell me why God had to “send” himself to die, when he is an immortal.…a being whose life cannot be destroyed.

God “sent” his son to become a human and to give his life as a ransom for Adam’s children. The price demanded under God’s law was… “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”.
Adam lost his perfect sinless life when he deliberately disobeyed God’s command….to fulfill his law, God sent his son to do what he could not. If Jesus was God, then he could not die the same death as Adam and the ransom is not paid, and therefore we are not redeemed and it ends there…..you see? It’s all in the way you read it.

Jesus said that he is “the son of God”…it is all he ever claimed to be. (John 10:31-36)

Well then John 10:31-36 and John 10:13 are in conflict.
And if the NT has conflicts then we cannot trust a word it says.

Do you suppose there might be a solution to the problem?

It's up to you to discover it.
I have no more time for you.

As was shown to you in plain English, Jehovah has many “sons”, whom Jesus calls his “brothers”.
He can be “divine”, without usurping his Father’s position as “the only true God”.

Look up the word “theos“ (god) in a Greek Interlinear and see that it doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “G”.
As the Scripture in John 10:31-36 indicates, human judges were called “gods” by Jehovah himself. They were divinely authorized by him, representing him. Jesus did too, representing him in every way.

You don’t know why I brought it up? That tells me that you didn’t bother to read what was posted….it was an integral point to the discussion. Who are called “sons of God” in the Bible?
Jesus is a “son of God”, but not the only one. He is God’s “firstborn” (Col 1:15) He is the first and only direct creation of his Father, which makes him unique. (Rev 3:14) All creation came into existence “through” the agency of this beloved firstborn son….he is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.
I am not surprised that you wanted to ignore it.

Again, you show how little you really know…..the “immaculate conception” relates to Mary in the RCC, not Jesus. Do you believe in the immaculate conception of Mary?
Jesus was ‘miraculously’ conceived by the power of God’s spirit.….as the Scriptures plainly state.

I wonder why you care to post to someone that knows so little?
And it's so wonderful that you know what the Immaculate Conception means.
A good leftover from your Catholic days.

Jesus became the one sent to redeem the human race when Mary gave birth to him….he did not become “the Christ” however, until his baptism in 29CE, when the holy spirit anointed him for the difficult mission he was to carry out. Now empowered to perform miracles, he would draw many of the “lost sheep” into the fold he would create.…..a different flock to the Jews who rejected him.

The ransom required an exact exchange…’a sinless life for a sinless life’…..that is why Jesus had to come from outside the now sinful human race….he was not carrying the imperfection of sin in his DNA. His life was transferred from heaven in order for God’s will to be done in rescuing Adam’s offspring.

I bid you farewell.

 

[GodsGrace]

The very fact that Jesus died tells you that he was not an immortal. Immortality is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”. Jesus died, or else the ransom was not paid.
Perhaps it is a good thing to understand the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”….they are not the same. Mortals can be granted everlasting life and still remain mortal…..it doesn’t mean that they have to die, but only under the right circumstances, they can.
What kind of a fool would God be to grant immortality to a free willed untested creature?
Why do you think that access to “the tree of life“ was denied once sin had entered the picture?
Was God going to have a bunch of renegade humans who cannot die? Imagine…..


He died physically, but was raised as a spirit by his God and Father. (1 Peter 3:18) As a reward, he was granted immortality, as will his elect when they too are taken to heaven as spirit beings to dwell in the presence of God, and bringing redeemed mankind back to God in reconciliation. (1 Cor 15:42-49)

I am only the messenger…..you are free to believe or to disbelieve whatever you wish…..that is not my call. I am merely declaring a truth that is not popular with those in Chistendom who have been taught something completely different…….but then the “wheat and the weeds” have to be completely different, especially in this “time of the end”.
How do you understand Jesus parable? (Matt 13: 24-30; 36-42)

To be “begotten” in the Scriptures requires a “begetter”…..one who existed before them, and was responsible for giving them life. Jesus is “only begotten” (monogenes) which means an only child….he is a unique being, who was “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

Since when has a “beginning“ ever meant “forever”?……the mere fact that something has a “beginning”, means that there was a time when it did not exist…..are you writing your own dictionary now?
I can find a lot of things “online”….but it doesn’t make them true.

Read that again and try to make sense of what you just said….God saved God…..???

Read the whole passage again….
Col 1:13-18….
”He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things”.

Tell me what you read….he is “the firstborn of ALL creation”…..which makes him part of that creation. As God’s “firstborn”….he holds a unique place in the heavenly arrangement. He was used in the creation of all things, after his own creation. (Rev 3:14) He was “with God” “in the beginning”…..


Who could argue with that? What does it have to do with Christ?….of whom it is clearly stated “he is the firstborn of ALL creation”.
Not only did creation come “through” him…it was brought into existence “for him”.

Perhaps you need to study up on what you believe is truth, to see if the Bible agrees with your beliefs?

Was Thomas in disagreement with the rest of the apostles who said collectively, (and which must have included Thomas)..…..
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

Was Thomas calling Jesus “theos” any different to John calling him “theos” in John 1:1?
Do you know what neither of these disciples called Jesus?…”ho theos”, which is seen in the Greek when speaking about Jehovah…..Jesus is never call “ho theos” because it means “THE God”…..this is what they called Jehovah because the Greeks had no word for a singular god without a name. The Jews had ceased uttering it, (for their own reasons,) so there was no other way to describe him in their language.
When you consult an Interlinear you can see the differentiation, especially in John 1:1. Only one is “ho theos”…the other is just “theos” which can mean “divine” or or “one given authority by the Almighty” as seen in John 10:31-36.

In case you are not aware, Greek does not use the same phraseology as English.
In the Greek it reads….”the glory of the great God of us and of savior, Jesus Christ”.
It does not say what is translated into English to support an erroneous doctrine.

Yes, Jesus is ”the Christ” or “anointed one”. So who anointed Jesus? His Father did at his baptism, empowering him with holy spirit and confirming his audible approval for the mission he was sent to carry out.
Jesus is “the son of the living God”…as Peter clearly said…..being “the son of God” makes him “the son”…..a completely separate entity to his Father.….like any other son. It’s the accepted definition of the word in English, is it not? Who on these boards imagines themselves to be their own father?

YOU are not the messenger.
Jesus isn't even the messenger.
HE'S THE MESSAGE.

And you want to keep discussing the Deity of Jesus when you know full well that this is not allowed?
And you think I would keep discussing it to someone that has no ears to hear?

 

[Aunty Jane]

For the benefit of those who might be following our conversation….and there are many readers who are not members here….I will take my right of reply, since we are in a debate forum after all. It’s why we are here….

What makes you think I haven't investigated?
Judge and jury?
Yes.
I maintain and insist on my right to believe you to be wrong in some doctrine or other.
I also insist on my right to know what a Christian is and to know if someone is or is not a Christian.
Just to be transparent, this does not mean I don't believe you to be saved...doctrine does not save a person.

The fact that you post opinions without evidence that what you say is true…this tells me that your sources are biased and that you have little interest in anything that disagrees with your position. I assure you, you are not alone. Those who have not really “investigated”, but who listen to one side of a story to form an opinion, are in the majority. Yet what if our courts did that? They hear both sides and then render a judgment. I have been on both sides…have you?
Jesus tells us that “few” are on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14) Why only “few”?…..what road are the “many“ travelling?

As to the majority....
Jesus had some new ideas, so of course He would not be in the majority.
But look at the Christian church just a few years later.

The ideas Jesus presented were confrontational to what the Jews perceived as their truth. What caused that situation?
Jesus said to the Jewish leaders…
”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matt 15:7-9)

Do you know why history repeats GG? Because the devil has no new tricks…and humans never learn from the lessons of the past.
How did God’s own chosen nation come to be in that condition? For the same reasons that Christendom today is a mirror image of Judaism in the first century…..God had not sent a prophet to correct them for hundreds of years….because they were too entrenched in their own errors to be corrected. Could Israel be saved under those circumstances? YES! But only if they, as individuals, left that apostate religious system because they belived in the teachings of God’s son, rather than the religious leaders who had led them away from God, whilst pretending to lead them to him.

I'll state this:
If 98 persons see a blue wall
and 2 persons see a green wall
I'd stop and investigate and give credence to the 98 that see a blue wall.
Could be the other 2 have eye problems.

I’d stop and investigate the evidence from both sides….which I have done. I was raised with your beliefs, but did not think to question them until it occurred to me that God cannot speak with a forked tongue….he cannot possibly be the author of all that division called denominationalism.

God’s truth is not like a supermarket, where you get to choose your favorite ‘brand’ because it suits your taste…..God has only one ‘brand’….and it is not found in the divisive teachings of Christendom at all.

Are we discussing a church now or doctrine?
All I did was to bring attention to the fact that you HATE the CC,
that hate has no room in a Christian person,
and that you allow this to cloud your reasoning ability and allows you to believe some man that invented some doctrine in the 1800's.

We are discussing doctrines that emanated from a corrupted church…..it was the only “chrch” for many centuries….with little to curb the defection that was foretold.
I hate what God hates…..and what Jesus hates…..they both hate false worship because they know who its author is.
I do not hate those who are trapped in that false worship, because we as Christians are assigned to take the truth of God’s word to the people and give them an opportunity to break free of those shackles, enslaved to man-made traditions and beliefs that have no place in a Christian’s life. We are to remove ourselves from that unfaithful sham. (Rev 18:4-5)

No man invented doctrines in the 1800’s like the CC did in the era leading up to Constantine’s takeover of the faith, fusing it with pagan Roman sun worship, still so visible in all the Catholic denominations even today.

That “Christianity” teaches people to ‘perform’, but not to think or to reason on what they are taught.
They mindlessly accept what is told to them without needing to prove any of it….puppets, taught by other puppets, trained in theology, but not the Bible. There is a huge difference.

Yes. I'd question anyone who came up with any new idea that was not present at the time of Jesus - or shortly thereafter.

But you haven’t….you accept what the church teaches without proof that what they teach is actually accurate…..you do understand that a ‘half truth’ is more damaging than a outright lie? “Sounds right” doesn’t make anything ”right”…..have you never examined the evidence for what you accept as truth, for yourself…? It is very enlightening.

Yes. I do believe that theologians know much more about the bible than you or I do.
It's a shame more of us don't pay enough attention to them.

Theologians are a dime a dozen…..pick your scholars…they cannot even agree with each other except on the foundational lies that form their universal base. Yet if the foundation is faulty…the whole building will collapse. The collapse that is coming will leave the world speechless.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll give you a quick example.
Calvinists insist that the NT teaches that we are dragged to God because of translation issues.
But do the verses they use really use the word drag?
And does EVERY verse they use translate correctly?
No.
And this is an important issue.

Will God allow his word to be so corrupted that no one will be able to pick what is truth?
At this juncture particularly, God has been separating out those who actually listen to Jesus’ teachings and has set them apart from those who only think they have the truth (because it’s what the majority uphold)….God has never sided with the majority…satan has those….he sides with those who, despite opposition and accusations of heresy, continue to teach the truth, until God says it’s enough. At that point, God will know who is a genuine Christian and who is a pretender. Those who imagine themselves to be Christians when they are involved with the world and it’s bloodshed, immorality and violence, will offer their excuses to our appointed judge…but to no avail. (Matt 7:21-23) The die is cast, and the people will have chosen their position….too late then to change their mind.
“Jehovah’s day” will come without warning. (Matt 24:42-44) 8

Was Paul dumb too?
Does someone that is not educated mean they are dumb?
This is very prejudiced on your part - and I don't use that word lightly.

Again, I see such a lack of understanding in what you say….
”Was Paul dumb too”? Were the apostles uneducated? They were taught by the greatest teacher who ever lived! They were not accepted as “educated” because they did not have the accepted credentials that were important in Judaism…..the same applies today….what is taught in Christendom is “theology”…which is not a study of the Bible, but the study of religious beliefs….what do you think is taught in theological collages? What do their degrees mean in real terms? It means the same as someone who attains a science degree because they agree with evolution….it’s what science teaches…but is it correct? Is it based on scientific fact, or is it rather science fiction?
If you have ever studied evolution, you will know that it sounds authentic, but if you read the literature, you find that all of it is based on supposition, suggestion and inference. Theology is the same.

The apostle Paul was not one of the 12…he was appointed later by special selection…because of his education…..he was to be “an apostle to the nations”, which was to have him stand before the learned Greek philosophers as well as educated Pharisees….he was one of their own, on the same educational level, which gave him a decided advantage over his companions.

You don't understand the Trinity and you don't want to, so I'm not wasting time on how the Father taught the Son.

I understand it perfectly well, which is why I reject it outright. Every scripture presented to confirm it has been taken apart and examined verse by verse, in context, and with regard to what the entirety of Scripture teaches.…and found to be based on supposition, suggestion and inference. Believe it if you like…I cannot.

I hope you're aware that most persons:
1. Could not read.
2. Bibles cost a small fortune that only the super rich could afford.

Most persons never got an opportunity to read or to even possess a Bible….the church forbade it.
Many were put to death for merely possessing one. That is a great basis for ignorance and control.

everything the early church taught was in the bible.

The “early church” was first century only…..yet even while the apostles lived, opposition and false teachings began to infiltrate….so, after their death, the “weeds” did what weeds do best…they overwhelmed the whole field and all but choked the “wheat“ out of existence. Yet, according to Daniel, who wrote his prophesies about “the time of the end”, this was the time for an abundance of knowledge to become available, and by this knowledge, God would “cleanse, whiten and refine” his people (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)…..so “the great awakening” was a time when that knowledge would wake people up, and move them to question everything.…cleaning up all the filth that had sullied the pure teachings of the Christ.

Jesus was resurrected only in Spirit.
That kind of ends our conversation, doesn't it?
You sound like the very gnostics the early church was fighting.

What do you mean, “only in spirit”?
Jesus was raised in a spirit body, not a body of flesh. He sacrificed that body at his execution….so he would not take it back. His appearances to his disciples in the 40 days he remained after his resurrection were in human form, but he was not constantly with his apostles during that time, but only “appeared” to them. He was a spirit who could do what other spirits had done in Bible times, they appeared in human form to convey God’s messages to his earthly servants.

As to the Greek - I hope you know that the inventor of the JWs CLAIMED to know Greek but did not.

There is no “inventor of JW’s”…….contrary to popular belief there were a group of men from different denomination in Christendom who were drawn together with one purpose…to evaluate Christendom’s teachings in the light of the Scriptures. An ‘awakening’ had occurred and so, one by one, their doctrines were taken apart and were carefully and prayerfully examined, to see if they were corroborated by the Bible…..and none of them were.

The person you speak of was a Rhodes scholar, but since the Bible was translated by accredited Bible scholars, Westcott and Hort, their manuscripts were used in our Bible translation. You really ought to make sure that the gossip you spread is actually true…..you will never get the truth from hostile sources.

Maybe we should leave knowing "the Greek" to scholars - those with the PhD after their name.

We did….and if you had bothered to check, you would know that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

How does God have a God in heaven?
Perhaps you should also read Revelation 19 and stop cherry picking verses that you like.

Are you not cherry picking your own verses? I at least have the backing of the whole Bible in my replies. It is one book, after all, with one story from one author. There is a big picture which seems to be missing in Christendom’s interpretation of Scripture. No one really seems to know where we are going at the end of the day…..so many versions of what the Bible says……is the truth then, unknowable? (John 6:44; 65)

In Revelation 19, who is the one sitting on white horse and called Faithful and True, and will judge in righteousness? He is wearing a bloody robe (ask yourself why) in verse 13 He iscalled THE WORD OF GOD. I do believe John called Jesus the WORD OF GOD.

Jesus bears the titles “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”…and especially “the Word of God” (logos) which is also used for God’s written word. (2 Tim 2:15) Jesus preached “the word of God” and so did the apostles. The pre-human Jesus was used all through human history as God’s mouthpiece or spokesman. This was demonstrated in Abraham’s time when three angels visited him and his wife to inform them of the birth of Isaac…..One identified as Jehovah, speaking for him. The other two went on to Sodom to rescue lot. (Gen 18) Since John tells us that “no man has seen God at any time”, (John 1:18) the angel was not God.

The Hebrew Scriptures were authored by God, and taught by the master Christ, and his apostles.

John 10:13 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

If that is so, then Jesus’ disciples are also part of your trinity….

John 17:22-23….
”The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.”

Why does God need to give his other self “glory”? How are God and his Christ “ONE”? In unity of thought and purpose, just as the disciples are one with Christ in unity of thought and purpose. It is unity that identifies Christ’s true disciples.….not disunity.

We know that God loves us…..but how does he love Jesus, if Jesus is God?
Is this God telling us that he loves himself…..is the same thing said about the holy spirit? Where are we told that the holy spirit loves anyone? If there is equality of the three, why is the third supposedly equal party, invariably missing in the conversation? John 17:3 mentions only two…so does the apostles‘ statement at 1 Cor 8:5-6.

You seem to have no idea how flimsy the evidence is for such an important doctrine….yet there is not one clear statement from God or his son to support it…..if there was, this topic would no longer cause dissension……yet it still rages almost 2000 years later….

I guess the readers will decide for themselves who has the better evidence for their position.

 

[TheHC]

…hate has no room in a Christian person

Aren’t we to “hate what is bad”? Although it shouldn’t include people; but hating teachings that alienate people from God, such as hellfire, or that misrepresent Him, is entirely appropriate.

Yes. I do believe that theologians know much more about the bible than you or I do.
It's a shame more of us don't pay enough attention to them.

What did Jesus state, @ Luke 10:21?

To whom does God, Jesus’ Father, choose to reveal His Word?

And what did Paul say, @ 1 Corinthians 1:27,28?
“God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,”

So it really doesn’t matter what kind of learning a person may have, in spiritual things.
What matters, is who is blessed by God’s spirit. -Matthew 7:21

You don't understand the Trinity and you don't want to, so I'm not wasting time on how the Father taught the Son.

Sir, you’re ‘fluffing’ (my word); no one knows the trinity; it is “a mystery”.
But as Jesus said @ John 4:22,22 …“we worship what we know….true worshippers worship the Father”.

John 10:13 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

I think you meant John 10:30. Do you realize you’re misapplying that verse? Jesus explained this “oneness” in prayer to His Father @ John 17:20-22…”Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

So Jesus meant that he & his Father were unified, having the same goals.

Jesus prayed to His Father constantly. And at times, His Father answered. They couldn’t have been the same!

For a person to imply that they were, destroys credibility.

You see, here’s the thing: even if you didn’t realize that John 10:30 was being misapplied - which for your sake I hope you didn’t - I’m very skeptical of your statements now.

Have a pleasant day, my cousin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Will God allow his word to be so corrupted that no one will be able to pick what is truth?
At this juncture particularly, God has been separating out those who actually listen to Jesus’ teachings and has set them apart from those who only think they have the truth (because it’s what the majority uphold)….God has never sided with the majority…satan has those….he sides with those who, despite opposition and accusations of heresy, continue to teach the truth, until God says it’s enough. At that point, God will know who is a genuine Christian and who is a pretender. Those who imagine themselves to be Christians when they are involved with the world and it’s bloodshed, immorality and violence, will offer their excuses to our appointed judge…but to no avail. (Matt 7:21-23) The die is cast, and the people will have chosen their position….too late then to change their mind.
“Jehovah’s day” will come without warning. (Matt 24:42-44) 8

Again, I see such a lack of understanding in what you say….
”Was Paul dumb too”? Were the apostles uneducated? They were taught by the greatest teacher who ever lived! They were not accepted as “educated” because they did not have the accepted credentials that were important in Judaism…..the same applies today….what is taught in Christendom is “theology”…which is not a study of the Bible, but the study of religious beliefs….what do you think is taught in theological collages? What do their degrees mean in real terms? It means the same as someone who attains a science degree because they agree with evolution….it’s what science teaches…but is it correct? Is it based on scientific fact, or is it rather science fiction?
If you have ever studied evolution, you will know that it sounds authentic, but if you read the literature, you find that all of it is based on supposition, suggestion and inference. Theology is the same.

The apostle Paul was not one of the 12…he was appointed later by special selection…because of his education…..he was to be “an apostle to the nations”, which was to have him stand before the learned Greek philosophers as well as educated Pharisees….he was one of their own, on the same educational level, which gave him a decided advantage over his companions.

I understand it perfectly well, which is why I reject it outright. Every scripture presented to confirm it has been taken apart and examined verse by verse, in context, and with regard to what the entirety of Scripture teaches.…and found to be based on supposition, suggestion and inference. Believe it if you like…I cannot.

Most persons never got an opportunity to read or to even possess a Bible….the church forbade it.
Many were put to death for merely possessing one. That is a great basis for ignorance and control.

The “early church” was first century only…..yet even while the apostles lived, opposition and false teachings began to infiltrate….so, after their death, the “weeds” did what weeds do best…they overwhelmed the whole field and all but choked the “wheat“ out of existence. Yet, according to Daniel, who wrote his prophesies about “the time of the end”, this was the time for an abundance of knowledge to become available, and by this knowledge, God would “cleanse, whiten and refine” his people (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)…..so “the great awakening” was a time when that knowledge would wake people up, and move them to question everything.…cleaning up all the filth that had sullied the pure teachings of the Christ.

What do you mean, “only in spirit”?
Jesus was raised in a spirit body, not a body of flesh. He sacrificed that body at his execution….so he would not take it back. His appearances to his disciples in the 40 days he remained after his resurrection were in human form, but he was not constantly with his apostles during that time, but only “appeared” to them. He was a spirit who could do what other spirits had done in Bible times, they appeared in human form to convey God’s messages to his earthly servants.

There is no “inventor of JW’s”…….contrary to popular belief there were a group of men from different denomination in Christendom who were drawn together with one purpose…to evaluate Christendom’s teachings in the light of the Scriptures. An ‘awakening’ had occurred and so, one by one, their doctrines were taken apart and were carefully and prayerfully examined, to see if they were corroborated by the Bible…..and none of them were.

The person you speak of was a Rhodes scholar, but since the Bible was translated by accredited Bible scholars, Westcott and Hort, their manuscripts were used in our Bible translation. You really ought to make sure that the gossip you spread is actually true…..you will never get the truth from hostile sources.

We did….and if you had bothered to check, you would know that.

Yes. An awakening after 1,800 years after Jesus was resurrected and after Christianity had already been established
and its definition.

Hate to be rude Auntie Jane,
but I really don't know why you want to speak to an ignoramus like myself.

I have no intention of responding to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you not cherry picking your own verses? I at least have the backing of the whole Bible in my replies. It is one book, after all, with one story from one author. There is a big picture which seems to be missing in Christendom’s interpretation of Scripture. No one really seems to know where we are going at the end of the day…..so many versions of what the Bible says……is the truth then, unknowable? (John 6:44; 65)

Yes, indeed.
You should join the CC.
They agree on everything.

Poor Christendom....the others understand nothing,
but YOU understand everything.

Jesus bears the titles “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”…and especially “the Word of God” (logos) which is also used for God’s written word. (2 Tim 2:15) Jesus preached “the word of God” and so did the apostles. The pre-human Jesus was used all through human history as God’s mouthpiece or spokesman. This was demonstrated in Abraham’s time when three angels visited him and his wife to inform them of the birth of Isaac…..One identified as Jehovah, speaking for him. The other two went on to Sodom to rescue lot. (Gen 18) Since John tells us that “no man has seen God at any time”, (John 1:18) the angel was not God.

God is spirit.
HOW do you suppose God could ever be seen?
Is this the same John speaking that declared that we have seen the word be made flesh?
John 1:14 ?

I think so.

The Hebrew Scriptures were authored by God, and taught by the master Christ, and his apostles.

If that is so, then Jesus’ disciples are also part of your trinity….

John 17:22-23….
”The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.”

Wouldn't YOU like to be ONE with Christians?
Perhaps this is what John meant?

Why does God need to give his other self “glory”? How are God and his Christ “ONE”? In unity of thought and purpose, just as the disciples are one with Christ in unity of thought and purpose. It is unity that identifies Christ’s true disciples.….not disunity.

We know that God loves us…..but how does he love Jesus, if Jesus is God?
Is this God telling us that he loves himself…..is the same thing said about the holy spirit? Where are we told that the holy spirit loves anyone? If there is equality of the three, why is the third supposedly equal party, invariably missing in the conversation? John 17:3 mentions only two…so does the apostles‘ statement at 1 Cor 8:5-6.

You seem to have no idea how flimsy the evidence is for such an important doctrine….yet there is not one clear statement from God or his son to support it…..if there was, this topic would no longer cause dissension……yet it still rages almost 2000 years later….

I guess the readers will decide for themselves who has the better evidence for their position.

Very flimsy doctrine.
This is why it has lasted for 2,000 years and why it's accepted by Christians.

Yes ma'am. Readers will decide for themselves.
YOU will be having little if any effect on them because most persons will not accept
cult religions that have arisen 2 thousand years after Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Aren’t we to “hate what is bad”? Although it shouldn’t include people; but hating teachings that alienate people from God, such as hellfire, or that misrepresent Him, is entirely appropriate.

All Jesus taught was love.
Love is the overall theme of the NT.
Jesus taught that hate is akin to murder.
Hating persons is definitely what Jesus was alluding to regarding murder.

But should hate be a part of our emotions at all?
The OT specifically teaches that we are to hate evil.
The other member hates a denomination.
Does she also hate those that TEACH in that denomination?

I really dislike reformed theology.
Do I HATE it?
No.

Proverbs 10 states that hatred stirs up strife.
I understand what you mean about hating incorrect doctrine...
I'm just not sure hate should be part of our being.

What did Jesus state, @ Luke 10:21?

To whom does God, Jesus’ Father, choose to reveal His Word?

And what did Paul say, @ 1 Corinthians 1:27,28?
“God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,”

I don't know why you've posted this.
Should I sit at home and read my NT and wait for the Holy Spirit to speak to me?

Why is it that the Holy Spirit does not teach all of us exactly the same doctrines?

So it really doesn’t matter what kind of learning a person may have, in spiritual things.
What matters, is who is blessed by God’s spirit. -Matthew 7:21

So only DUMB persons are blessed by God's spirit?
Do you think YOU know more than a textual scholar?
Maybe this is why you've fallen for a lie....
Perhaps you should really study the NT instead of listening to men that are brainwashing you.

Sir, you’re ‘fluffing’ (my word); no one knows the trinity; it is “a mystery”.
But as Jesus said @ John 4:22,22 …“we worship what we know….true worshippers worship the Father”.

Sir, just because YOU don't understand the Trinity, does not mean it's a mystery.
It's rather easy to understand IF a person wishes to.
Of course, you'd have to change your church and all you know.
Some persons just can't walk down a road that might take them to the truth.

I think you meant John 10:30. Do you realize you’re misapplying that verse? Jesus explained this “oneness” in prayer to His Father @ John 17:20-22…”Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

So Jesus meant that he & his Father were unified, having the same goals.

Sir, I meant JOHN 10:30
30“I and the Father are one.”

The very next verse states that the Jews picked up stones to stone Him
Because they understood the implication of what He stated.
That He declared Himself to be God.

I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Jesus and God are ONE BEING.
Very easy to understand.
The Jews understood this with no problem.

Jesus prayed to His Father constantly. And at times, His Father answered. They couldn’t have been the same!

For a person to imply that they were, destroys credibility.

Who said they're the same?
The Trinity:
Three Persons in One Being

Try studying it a bit...
I'm not here to teach you.
Unless, you wanted this -

You see, here’s the thing: even if you didn’t realize that John 10:30 was being misapplied - which for your sake I hope you didn’t - I’m very skeptical of your statements now.

Have a pleasant day, my cousin.

You don't have to accept my statements.
I don't even expect you to.
It would require too much change on your part.
It would take the Holy Spirit to change your heart...
and I believe you're not willing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes. An awakening after 1,800 years after Jesus was resurrected and after Christianity had already been established and its definition.

And who “established” it and who decided on the “definition”? An apostate church that Jesus already warned us would materialize “while men were sleeping”…..there are many ways to be “asleep”.

Jesus‘ apostles foretold that an apostasy which was “already at work” by the end of the first century was bound to come…..this is why no “Scripture” accepted into the canon was written by anyone but Jews, or that were penned after the death of the apostles.

It was Daniel who foretold many things concerning the “time of the end”…..(Daniel 12:4; 9-10)….the time we are living in now, when Christ was due to return, and he gave his disciples the “sign of his presence”…and of “the end“ of the world system, controlled by the devil. (Matt 24:3-14; Luke 4:5-7)

The “awakening” took place, and the “abundant knowledge” that would be available at this time, would free some of the slaves in all of Satan’s religious systems, and educate those people in one truth. Only a minority would wake up however, mirroring the situation that occurred in the first century when Christ brought knowledge of the truth to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. The majority failed to accept what he taught, and were complicit in his murder, even though they may have only done so silently in their hearts.
There are many “lost sheep” today, wondering who to believe in the hopeless divisions of denominational Christendom.

Hate to be rude Auntie Jane,
but I really don't know why you want to speak to an ignoramus like myself.

How you describe yourself is up to you….my responses here are not read just by you….there are truth seekers out there who need to hear all sides in order to make an informed choice…..I have spent almost my entire life studying God’s word…it was not a vain exercise…..

I have no intention of responding to you.

One can read a lot into that statement….your “intentions” are known only by you and God….
I stand by everything I have said and my words are backed up by Scripture….who backs up your words?
And how is ignoring what the Bible plainly says in a debate, an acceptable way of responding to questions and Bible subjects?
If you are not here to debate…..then why I ask, are you here at all? To preach only to the choir?
I am not a member of your choir.…I march to the beat of a different drum….and I make no apology for it.

We will all stand before the same judge after all….

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, indeed.
You should join the CC.
They agree on everything.

Do they? How many different “Catholic churches” can you name?
Are the “orthodox” churches the same as the RCC? What about the Greek Orthodox, or the Russian Orthodox, or the Coptic Church…? They all believe the same errors….but apparently Christianity has a nationality….(Acts 10:34-35)

God is spirit.
HOW do you suppose God could ever be seen?
Is this the same John speaking that declared that we have seen the word be made flesh?
John 1:14 ?

He is the same Jesus of whom John also said…..”no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18)….Jesus is the one that explained “the only true God” to all who would listen. (John 17:3) He had the intimacy of a son who had spent his entire life learning from his God and Father. He willingly offered to become the redeemer for the human race. (John 3:16)

I think so.

“I think” has no place in the life of a Christian….many “think” wrongly….it’s why Christendom is so divided.

Very flimsy doctrine.

And yet it fulfills Daniel’s prophesy perfectly as it must….the “time of the end” is the time when Christ was due to return and to begin “separating the sheep from the goats”.…in preparation for the final judgment to come. We are all at this point in time, telling God who we really are, by what we accept as truth and how we worship God according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. (Matt 7:21-23) It will not end well for the majority who are willingly misinformed and happily misled.

This is why it has lasted for 2,000 years and why it's accepted by Christians.

What has lasted for 2000 years? Look at the hopelessly divided state of Christendom and tell me what God sees?
Read 1 Cor 1:10 and tell me if this describes the “Christianity” that you support…..?

”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

Yes ma'am. Readers will decide for themselves.
YOU will be having little if any effect on them because most persons will not accept
cult religions that have arisen 2 thousand years after Jesus.

Most people rejected Christ when he came the first time…..”few” are going to be found on the “cramped and narrow” road to life….the majority are ignorantly traveling on the road to destruction. (Matt 7:13-14)
Unpleasant as these facts are to contemplate….they will be our reality soon enough.

 

[TheHC]

most persons will not accept
cult religions….

You mean like how most didn’t accept Jesus? Because to many, he started a cult religion; it could be classified as such.

…that have arisen 2 thousand years after Jesus.

Did you never read Daniel 12, ‘In the final part of the days true knowledge will become abundant’?

Why is it that the Holy Spirit does not teach all of us exactly the same doctrines?

It wouldn’t.
So maybe it’s not the Holy Spirit… rather, another spirit? At 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, Paul was talking about men inside the congregation, who were being used…

But Paul & Jesus both stated “their works” reveal them. See Matthew 7:15-23

So did John @ 1 John 3:10-15
Now ask yourself: what is Christendom’s reputation when these standards are applied to them?
When the world has had its wars, at times when showing love mattered the most, what have trinitarians done?
Catholic leaders have approved of, even urged, their members to take sides; and Protestant leaders have done the same.
You are correct when you said Christ teaches us to love everyone; that’s what his Father, Jehovah, teaches. However, when it was the most imperative, Christendom hasn’t. In fact, they’ve had their own religious wars!
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown Him by their works.” Titus 1:16

So only DUMB persons are blessed by God's spirit?
Do you think YOU know more than a textual scholar?

I think I implied ‘humble people.’

Who understood the Scriptures better…. Peter, or the Pharisees?
The better question is, “Who had God’s blessing and spirit?”

What i believe aren’t ideas I have come up with on my own… I've come to realize who has been blessed with God’s spirit. - Matthew 24:45-47

In your responses, you seem to overlook much of what I post. So I won’t bother you anymore in this thread.

Wishing you a good day, my cousin.

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean like how most didn’t accept Jesus? Because to many, he started a cult religion; it could be classified as such.

Did you never read Daniel 12, ‘In the final part of the days true knowledge will become abundant’?

It wouldn’t.
So maybe it’s not the Holy Spirit… rather, another spirit? At 2 Corinthians 11:12-15, Paul was talking about men inside the congregation, who were being used…

But Paul & Jesus both stated “their works” reveal them. See Matthew 7:15-23

So did John @ 1 John 3:10-15
Now ask yourself: what is Christendom’s reputation when these standards are applied to them?
When the world has had its wars, at times when showing love mattered the most, what have trinitarians done?
Catholic leaders have approved of, even urged, their members to take sides; and Protestant leaders have done the same.
You are correct when you said Christ teaches us to love everyone; that’s what his Father, Jehovah, teaches. However, when it was the most imperative, Christendom hasn’t. In fact, they’ve had their own religious wars!
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown Him by their works.” Titus 1:16


I think I implied ‘humble people.’

Who understood the Scriptures better…. Peter, or the Pharisees?
The better question is, “Who had God’s blessing and spirit?”

What i believe aren’t ideas I have come up with on my own… I've come to realize who has been blessed with God’s spirit. - Matthew 24:45-47

In your responses, you seem to overlook much of what I post. So I won’t bother you anymore in this thread.

Wishing you a good day, my cousin.

So your denomination is Peter
and EVERY OTHER DENOMINATION is the pharisees.
Thankfully Russell came along to set everyone straight.

You have a good day too.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So your denomination is Peter
and EVERY OTHER DENOMINATION is the pharisees.
Thankfully Russell came along to set everyone straight.

With every response, you create strawmen and attack them.....hardly a great basis for debate. You defeat yourself. Demeaning your opponent by presenting false reasoning says more about you, than them.

How about addressing what is actually presented to you? Just the facts, not your misguided opinions.

So why was the tree situated in the middle of the garden....again?

 

[face2face]

With every response, you create strawmen and attack them.....hardly a great basis for debate. You defeat yourself. Demeaning your opponent by presenting false reasoning says more about you, than them.

How about addressing what is actually presented to you? Just the facts, not your misguided opinions.

So why was the tree situated in the middle of the garden....again?

God placed a consequence there, as He knew flesh made of dust could not obey from the heart, and inevitably the first pair would sin.

If you hold a fairy tale view of Genesis 1-3 you will see the promise of Christ as being plan B, which is not the case. Christ was in the mind of God from the begining and His Creation was established with him in mind.

God place life and death in the garden and man (women first) choose death.

Dust was always going to return to dust.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

With every response, you create strawmen and attack them.....hardly a great basis for debate. You defeat yourself. Demeaning your opponent by presenting false reasoning says more about you, than them.

How about addressing what is actually presented to you? Just the facts, not your misguided opinions.

So why was the tree situated in the middle of the garden....again?

Not interested.
Sorry.

 

[face2face]

Not interested.
Sorry.

Grace, I'd be very interested to know what Aunty Jane believes concerning Adams nature. I havn't been able to get this out of any of the JW's on this site. They say they wer perfect (like the angels) yet they cannot say they were immortal / eternal beings....so what nature did they have? Curious?

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

God placed a consequence there, as He knew flesh made of dust could not obey from the heart, and inevitably the first pair would sin.

If you hold a fairy tale view of Genesis 1-3 you will see the promise of Christ as being plan B, which is not the case. Christ was in the mind of God from the begining and His Creation was established with him in mind.

God place life and death in the garden and man (women first) choose death.

Dust was always going to return to dust.

F2F

No plan B.
But your first paragraph sounds a bit reformed.
Do you believe God put the tree there as a test or specifically so ADAM could sin?

I detect a difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace, I'd be very interested to know what Aunty Jane believes concerning Adams nature. I havn't been able to get this out of any of the JW's on this site. They say they wer perfect (like the angels) yet they cannot say they were immortal / eternal beings....so what nature did they have? Curious?

F2F

Face, I have an acquaintance that's a JW.
I've heard such weird stuff from her that I can hardly take it anymore.
Besides, the other member has told me a couple of times how uneducated I am so it's rather amazing to me that she even wants to discuss with me.
Maybe next time I'm with the girl I know I'll ask her.

 

[face2face]

Face, I have an acquaintance that's a JW.
I've heard such weird stuff from her that I can hardly take it anymore.
Besides, the other member has told me a couple of times how uneducated I am so it's rather amazing to me that she even wants to discuss with me.
Maybe next time I'm with the girl I know I'll ask her.

I've provided as many Spiritual lessons surrounding the first pair and yet they deny every single lesson. I've never witnessed such wholesale denial from a group of believers in my life. I get they must tow the party line, but to be shown such depth of wisdom from the Word and reject it it like they do, is staggering. I've been on ignore for some time with Aunty Jane who appears to be the more proficient at explaining their teachings. What I find sad is their wrote learning, you can see their scripted responses which means they have been taught without understanding. There must be about 5 threads with many of unanswered questions and they just won't enter the Word of God. They will judge it, but not enter it.

If you can ask your JW friend I would be curious what they say A&E's nature was thanks

F2F