Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

[face2face]

He did, because he sinned.
He made a choice — the wrong one

Like us, correct.
Dust is dust and will always be dust no matter how hard you try to make it something else.
Are you struggling with this discussion?
The weight of truth can become heavy.
F2F

 

[TheHC]

2:4 For if God did not spare the angels (messengers) who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment, 2 Pe 2:4.

Who is locked up in the grave awaiting judgement HC?

Sorry i didn’t mean to come across as belittling you, I was just surprised!


First of all, Peter didn’t use the word Hades there; he wrote tartaro’o. That’s not hell, aka the Grave.

And secondly, those in the Grave, ie., are dead mankind. They are not judged by what they did in the past. Romans 6:7 shows they paid for that, with their death. - Romans 6:23 “The wages of sin is death”. They are judged by what they do, after their resurrection.

And I did explain how the angels sinned.

 

[face2face]

Immortality is “put on” but only by those who are heaven bound.

Quote please.

Not all humans were promised heaven as it was never going to be the home of the human race.

Quote please.

Some were chosen for a special purpose to rule redeemed mankind and bring them back to God.......this is the whole reason why Christ came...to give us back, what Adam took away from his children.

Quote please.

Mere mortals cannot exist in the spirit realm......so God will “transform” these former humans into spirit creatures, so as to exist in that realm....in the presence of God.

Quote please.

Spirit creatures who can sin - you keep telling me!

Nonsense. Where do you think satan came from?

Quote please....show me where "your" satan comes from! I want an origin story!

They are free willed beings too, as capable of disobeying God as we are.

Wrong!

Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word! Psalm 103:20

Is this post the Bible according to Jane or will be see some supporting quotes at some point?

He did not create his children as robots who had no choice in anything....free will is a precious gift, but abusing it, turns it into a curse, as we can plainly see.

The Free Will to live the Fruit of the Spirit which there is no Law is boundless Jane - pure light, light you and I cannot comprehend and you would have it chosing evil?

Again, you don't know Jehovah!

You got it...those angels who chose to defect with Satan are now called demons.....they were once faithful angels, but followed the devil into sin and it consequences will be for them in “the lake of fire”...eternal death.

Now enters Greek Mythology and all the notions ones mind can conjure! You do not understand what the Lake of Fire is so how can you force you rebel anglel theology on the text? I mean you have proven you don't understand how and why Adam named Eve in Genesis 3 so how can I expect you to understand the Revelation?

What? God posted cherubs at the entrance to the garden to make sure no human re-entered the garden to take fruit from “the tree of life and live forever”...(Gen 3:22-24)

Thank you - correct! The obedient Angels would not allow an eternal sinner! Impossible, never happen for so many reasons already stated.

Cherubs are by rank the guardians in God’s arrangement.

Correct

What ????? Again, where does this come from?
Once the saints are in heaven,

Blessed are the meek for they shall inhereit the earth.

Abraham walked all over the land which he will one day inherit!

David's throne is on earth which Jesus will sit upon at his return. Luke 1:32 (so basic!)

they have already proven faithful to their death, so they inherit the crown of life. They are then given immortality......a saint cannot ever therefore be a sinner....but they are not a saint unless God chooses them, and rewards them with a heavenly resurrection after a faithful course....that resurrection occurs “first”. (Rev 20:6)

But Angels can?
You are all over the place Jane - I mean you have Saints not sinning but Angels sinning. You have some obedient angels and some disobedient angels.
Crazy nonsense!

Where have we ever said this???? You have it all completely scrambled....no wonder there are few others with your beliefs.....they are certainly NOT from the Bible.

I don’t have to consider the ramblings of someone who has fantasy as their truth.....nothing you say has any reference to what the Bible says....it’s your particular spin on it.....surely no one else believes what you believe?

To hard to answer?

Yes, those resurrected to heaven are immortals who cannot die.

Quote please.

Those resurrected to life on earth will also never need to die again because Christ has paid the price of their redemption so that all can return to the way it was meant to be......everlasting life can be restored to the human race.

You are all over the place Jane its getting a little comical.

The Kingdom of God is on earth Jane, Christs and the Saints will reign from earth, not Heaven.

Again, read the Lords prayer to find our Gods will is done in Heaven and it will one day be done on earth.

You believe Sin in Heaven

Shocking!

The faithful ones do for sure...the unfaithful ones will join other unfaithful ones in the lake of fire....”the second death”....a death from which no one returns.

Sin is anything that is against God’s law. Angels can sin, just like humans because we all have free will.

Saints like unto the angels who cannot sin or die - but Jane states they can! Wow all the best with that belief

You just have such a scrambled view of everything.....

About now Jane the only one who is scrambled is your teachings.

I'm thankful I have the Lord Jesus Christ & the Apostles as my achor for truth.

F2F

 

[TheHC]

Can you see Aunty Janes false teaching?

I see you misrepresenting what she is saying. You’re using sweeping generalizations. Quite inappropriate strawmen.

Are you doing that on purpose?
Because if you’re not, then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona, I’d like to sell you.

 

[face2face]

Sorry i didn’t mean to come across as belittling you, I was just surprised!

Likewise!

First of all, Peter didn’t use the word Hades there; he wrote tartaro’o. That’s not hell, aka the Grave.

Tartaros in the mythology of the Greeks was “a dark abyss, as deep below hades as earth below heaven, the prison of Saturn, the Titans, etc. . . . Later, Tartaros was either the nether world generally, like Hades, or the regions of the damned

I'm surprised you willingly admit to believing in Greek Mythology?

Is this JW teaching?

Lets consider the context and use of this word HC

You know Peter is stating an echo of Jude’s in verse 6 of his epistle, which should be compared with this passage.

In both places the “darkness” of the nether world (the grave) is conspicuous, also the fact that the case of these “angels” awaits “the judgment of the great day.”

That is the judgement of mankind not Divine angels!

Now I could ask you to list the OT stories which Jude & Peter are teaching from but something tells me you wont show me the respect and compliance I am showing you.

The parallel illustrations are the Flood (on earth) and the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah (on earth) which leaves us in no doubt of the true meaning of Peter’s allusion.

These were cataclysms upon earth, and the abyss, whether of fire or water, was “hell” enough in the case. So with the “angels”; the casting into Tartaros was a casting into the Bible “hell,” and we believe that the event in question to which both Peter and Jude seem to allude as an incident well known to the brethren of their day was the casting down to hell of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, and their company.

Go away and read for yourself HC Num 16:30, 33.

I've shown this possibly 3 times to @Aunty Jane and do you know how many times she has responded to these facts?

Zero! Not once! Nottathing

Now if I asked you to show an origin story for this event where would you take me HC? To the garden with an animal serpent?

Yeah right!

You are more interested in your fantacies than learning contextual truth

You can tickle your ears about the mystrical abyss of your Greek gods.

Let's see how that goes with the Christ returns are shows you the real battle and enemy

F2F

 

[TheHC]

Quote please.

Quote please.

Quote please.

Quote please.

Spirit creatures who can sin - you keep telling me!


Quote please....show me where "your" satan comes from! I want an origin story!

Wrong!

Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word! Psalm 103:20

Is this post the Bible according to Jane or will be see some supporting quotes at some point?


The Free Will to live the Fruit of the Spirit which there is no Law is boundless Jane - pure light, light you and I cannot comprehend and you would have it chosing evil?

Again, you don't know Jehovah!


Now enters Greek Mythology and all the notions ones mind can conjure! You do not understand what the Lake of Fire is so how can you force you rebel anglel theology on the text? I mean you have proven you don't understand how and why Adam named Eve in Genesis 3 so how can I expect you to understand the Revelation?


Thank you - correct! The obedient Angels would not allow an eternal sinner! Impossible, never happen for so many reasons already stated.


Correct


Blessed are the meek for they shall inhereit the earth.

Abraham walked all over the land which he will one day inherit!

David's throne is on earth which Jesus will sit upon at his return. Luke 1:32 (so basic!)


But Angels can?
You are all over the place Jane - I mean you have Saints not sinning but Angels sinning. You have some obedient angels and some disobedient angels.
Crazy nonsense!

To hard to answer?


Quote please.


You are all over the place Jane its getting a little comical.

The Kingdom of God is on earth Jane, Christs and the Saints will reign from earth, not Heaven.

Again, read the Lords prayer to find our Gods will is done in Heaven and it will one day be done on earth.

You believe Sin in Heaven

Shocking!



Saints like unto the angels who cannot sin or die - but Jane states they can! Wow all the best with that belief


About now Jane the only one who is scrambled is your teachings.

I'm thankful I have the Lord Jesus Christ & the Apostles as my achor for truth.

F2F

So who are the demons, who spoke to Jesus?

 

[face2face]

I see you misrepresenting what she is saying. You’re using sweeping generalizations. Quite inappropriate strawmen.

Are you doing that on purpose?
Because if you’re not, then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona, I’d like to sell you.

You can see how poor Aunty is supporting her points? - loads of personal thoughts, without any concern for the Bible she is casting false doctrines at.

Even your last post was staggering, that you openly admitted to believing in Greek Mythology, rather than searching the truth of the Word.

It's lazy man - real lazy.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So who are the demons, who spoke to Jesus?

Quote please.

 

[TheHC]

I'm surprised you willingly admit to believing in Greek Mythology?

Is this JW teaching?

Peter used the word, lol. In the Bible.

 

[face2face]

Peter used the word, lol.

So what is your point HC?
Are you confused why Peter would use word that convey's the depth and darkness of the grave?
F2F

 

[face2face]

@TheHC

Do you not know the OT & NT writers used various words to convey the grave?

The Bible doctrine of hell, Sheol and Hades are The Grave; and Gehenna is The Grave of the condemned. Tartaros is unique as above indicated.

One must wonder though how deep is that darkness for those individuals awaiting judgment?

So servere the ground opened up - pretty deep wouldn't you say HC?

Or maybe you wouldn't say LOL

It's nigh on impossible to rid the mind of Mythological notions - once implanted, they are there to stay!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Peter used the word, lol.

Are you ever going to provide any substance HC?
Are you only good for short one liners?
Surely you have an origin story in there somewhere?
Maybe you can take me to the true context of Peter & Judes thoughts? Enlighten us all to your wisdom?
So underwhelming this little session has been!
I'll go back to looking at Acts 6 and how the 7 disciples were chosen - at least there is substance there
F2F

 

[TheHC]

Quote please.

Oh grief! Amazing!

Mark 1:24 is one account. Look up the others.

 

[RedFan]

Not to derail the conversation, but Second Peter's reference to the Greek mythological word ταρταρώσ is yet another reason to suppose that the author was not Peter himself, i.e., that the letter was pseudographical.

 

[face2face]

@TheHC

Let's make this educational shall we HC?

Can you think of another place in the NT where a person uses external sources to prove a point?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Oh grief! Amazing!

Mark 1:24 is one account. Look up the others.

Oh grief! you quoted a passage that states he had an unclean spirit.

What are you making of this HC?

 

[face2face]

Not to derail the conversation, but Second Peter's reference to the Greek mythological word ταρταρώσ is yet another reason to suppose that the author was not Peter himself, i.e., that the letter was pseudographical.

Possible though I believe he used the word for good reason and not for those notions many force upon the Word.
I understand the context and its setting in those stories - you have the upper hand when you can demonstrate OT root.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Let me help you @TheHC

Mark 5:1-5 "No man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could anyman tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones."

It's understood today, the vernacular used at the time of Jesus could not possibly describe this as a mental illness, such as schizophrenia. The Word is nuanced, and rather than forcing your mythological notions and mind’s eye fantasies, try reading the Bible with more care.

All you are showing me in this discussion is a person who has not read the Word of God for himself and is running all over the place. If you stop and listen and learn you might be able to rid yourself of these foolish man made notions which fill you mind.

Will you cease long enough to do this HC?

F2F

....and enough with the laughing face emoticons it's making you look like a fool!

 

[face2face]

Not to derail the conversation, but Second Peter's reference to the Greek mythological word ταρταρώσ is yet another reason to suppose that the author was not Peter himself, i.e., that the letter was pseudographical.

When I ask people to go away and show me from 2 Peter and Jude the OT Stories they never come back with a response. Not once has a person come back and listed those OT stories.

What it does in their minds is ask this question.

"How does my interpretation fit within this obvious context."

The answer is, it doesn’t.

In addition to this, I ask, "Is this your origin story for a fallen angel" which of course, it states nowhere in the text! And they cannot answer this also.

So, I'm left here thinking, what did they take away?

And the answer is nothing...they continue to hold the false notions and continue to force them into the Word rather than allow the Word to teach them.

The Master did the same over and over "Have you not read?"

F2F

 

[Johann]

When I ask people to go away and show me from 2 Peter and Jude the OT Stories they never come back with a response. Not once has a person come back and listed those OT stories.

Why?
I spend time listening to debates-it's my hobby. Jewish rabbis, Christian philosophers, and Muslim apologists go head-to-head in debates, but not a single Christian apologist seems able to hold their own when up against a rabbi or Muslim apologist. And yet, here we are, often debating each other. Tovia Singer, along with several Muslim debaters, keeps challenging Christians to prove Yeshua is the Messiah using the Torah, not the New Testament.
Even if they do attempt this, rabbis and Muslim apologists immediately dismiss the New Testament as fictitious.
The bottom line? In most debates, it seems like the Christian debater is always on the losing end.
And we ourselves are Scripture illiterate.

"When I ask people to go away and show me from 2 Peter and Jude the OT Stories---"

2 Peter 2:4-6
Angels who sinned (2 Peter 2:4):
This likely refers to the fallen angels from Genesis 6:1-4 (the "sons of God" who came to the daughters of men) and possibly references extra-biblical Jewish tradition (like the Book of Enoch), where the sin of these angels is elaborated on.

Noah and the flood (2 Peter 2:5):
A clear reference to Genesis 6-8, where God brought judgment upon the ancient world but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and his family.

Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6):
Refers to Genesis 19 where God destroyed these cities due to their wickedness, particularly their extreme immorality. The destruction by fire serves as an example of God's judgment.

2 Peter 2:15-16
Balaam (2 Peter 2:15-16):
This is a reference to the story of Balaam, found in Numbers 22-24. Balaam, a prophet, was hired by Balak, king of Moab, to curse Israel, but God intervened through Balaam's donkey, and Balaam was rebuked for his greed and desire to profit from unrighteousness.

Jude 1:5-7
Israel's unbelief after the Exodus (Jude 1:5):
Refers to Numbers 14 when the Israelites rebelled against God and refused to enter the Promised Land, leading to their wandering in the wilderness.

Angels who did not keep their positions of authority (Jude 1:6):
Similar to 2 Peter, this is likely referencing the fallen angels from Genesis 6:1-4 or Jewish traditions about their rebellion.

Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:7):
Again, a reference to Genesis 19, where these cities were judged for their sexual immorality and corruption.
Jude 1:11

Cain:
Refers to Genesis 4:1-16, where Cain, the firstborn of Adam and Eve, killed his brother Abel out of jealousy, becoming the first murderer.
Balaam:
As in 2 Peter, this refers to Numbers 22-24, where Balaam's greed led him astray.

Korah's rebellion:
Refers to Numbers 16, where Korah led a rebellion against Moses and Aaron, questioning their authority, and God judged Korah and his followers by having the earth swallow them up.

What can I glean from this?

Fallen Angels (Genesis 6:1-4)

Noah and the Flood (Genesis 6-8)

Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19)

Balaam (Numbers 22-24)

Cain (Genesis 4:1-16)

Israel's Unbelief in the Wilderness (Numbers 14)

Korah's Rebellion (Numbers 16)

Shalom.
J.