Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Does the word immortal apply to existence after death? I believe immortal applies to living forever.
Eternal life applies to exitance after death as spirit.....In Heaven or Hell.
How the idea of Immortal Soul got into the Church
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Does the word immortal apply to existence after death? I believe immortal applies to living forever.
Eternal life applies to exitance after death as spirit.....In Heaven or Hell.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Ok.
How the idea of Immortal Soul got into the Church
Often, early believers arrived at their understanding through a process—sometimes involving many steps and years of reflection. But when they finally concluded, ‘This is how it is,’ they often skipped showing the steps and reasoning behind their conclusions, presenting only the final result.
This pattern applies to many theological developments, including the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity."
Contrary. It says quite plainly "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and DEATH THROUGH THAT ONE SIN, and thus death spread to all men, because all men sinned through death. The following verses clarifies that explanation.
Man cannot have sin nature. Sin is not an element of nature. It is what we call an act that misses the mark of perfection that Christ demands. Man has a mortal nature, which causes him to sin.
Christ would not have been able to save if man had a sinful nature. Christ assumed our human nature, body, soul and will. He would have been born a sinner if you followed through with your view.
It is the curse of death, Gen 3:19, dust to dust shall we return. It is Christ who reversed it through the resurrection of His Human nature, the same nature we possess. It is the same reason creation was subjected to death because we are ll consubstantial with one another.
You say Romans, but just where does it say we inherited Adam's sin?
Runningman
Well-Known Member
There's probably enough room to assign a theological definition to eternal life in a way that it doesn't necessarily refer to immortality.
However, the text book definition of eternal life should be equal to immortality or it would be possible that all of the promises of eternal life would only refer to eternal life after death. Therefore, no one would technically have eternal life now. That's also plausible, but the Bible does say that people can have eternal life right now even before their death.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Runningman
Well-Known Member
I doubt Melchizedek is actually still alive right now. I was thinking of 1 John 5:13 for example.
1 John 5
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Yes, he could have died in World War I, or World War II, or he could have been the man behind what is often called deep government. Who knows?
Refer to the reply above, you wouldn't expect this to happen in this corrupt world.
Runningman
Well-Known Member
I gather the point of Melchizedek having no end or beginning to his days is a play on a technicality because his genealogical record seems to be missing. I didn't think they actually thought he was still alive, but who knows honestly. However, why couldn't 1 John 5:13 actually happen? Is it that the world is worse off than it was ~2000 years ago or what happened?
soberxp
Well-Known Member
If you have eternal life in this world, it doesn't mean you won't die by accident. Even if Melchizedek has eternal life, he may die by any accident.
But there may be exceptions where obedience to God's word, God's blessing, and any accident is far from him.
In addition, I think this verse is about eternal life, which will be accomplished in the kingdom of heaven.
Runningman
Well-Known Member
I think I am leaning toward how you see this as well. Jesus and Paul spoke of eternal life as something that is received in the future.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I don't 'strain at a gnat'. Paul taught that Adam's sin was imparted to ALL men, and I believe what he said. Now if someone wants to 'strain at a gnat' of just HOW that is, that's up to them. And the following verse they need to consider when doing that straining...
1 Tim 2:14
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
KJV
Davy
Well-Known Member
Now you are just playing with God's Word. You well know what Paul said in the Book of Romans.
Yes, I do. Romans 5:12 diametrically opposes your view. Rom 5:19 also opposes your view. Heb 2:14, Heb 2:9,
Your answer shows you do not know because there is no text in all of scripture that states man inherited sin from Adam. Logically, biologically it is impossible to inherit any sin. Could you explain just how one can inherit an act, sin, of one man?
Here is how scripture shows your view in NOT scriptural.
man disobeyed and fell, God also provided redemption. God was not willing to allow His creation to simply dissolve back into nothingness after the fall. The Revelation we have in the OT is God's message and the preparation of the coming of the Messiah. God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:12, Rom 5:14-19; Rom 11:32; I Cor 15:12-22; II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9 Heb 2:14-17, Col 1:20, I John 2:2, John 1:29, John 6:39. Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work. John 4:42, I John 4:14.
Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.
Christ came to us Incarnate. Meaning He was both God and Man. It means that the joining of God's perfect Image was to be reunited with the fallen image of man and creation. Thus in summation, man lost the perfect created image in which he was made and lost the ability to commune with God so that man could attain Godlikeness. He lost life.
The Incarnation of our human nature was a necessity in order that Christ could redeem it. Christ became man, consubstantial with man, in order to effect the changes necessary to redeem our natures. Adam's sin resulted in a judgment against man's nature, death. Man became mortal, living in a state of death. Thus all men are born dead, by nature, inherited corruptness. It is from this state of death, mortality, the flesh that sin originates in man I Cor 15:56..
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
That's false doctrine... the Lord said thru Paul that sin came UPON all men... the Lord never said that sin was put INTO every man. Big, gigantic difference between the two.
In fact, the Lord has said in His Word that he does not hold you responsible for the sins of others:
Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin
Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
2 Kings 14:6
But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin
Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live
Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself
No... we all have sinned after we were born on our own so each of us are guilty because we DECIDED to sin at some point in our lives. Those who claim God put a sin nature in each baby that was born are specking in behalf of the devil whether they realize it or not.
This is due to false doctrine they have been taught along with their ignorance of what the Lord says in His Word.
If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. Now note specifically:
Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]
Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)
Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.
Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?
Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?
Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?
The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally.
But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is false doctrine!.
Er no, He was an OT saint so he's in Heaven now along with all the other OT saints
First off.... Paul wrote as he was led of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ told him to write.... and he never did say God put sin nature in every new born baby after Adam and Eve.
That's the false doctrines of the calvinists, lutherns, and the catholic cult that have taught this doctrine of demons for the past few centuries.
But hey, if you need an excuse to believe living in sin is normal for you... then this false doctrine is definitely good for that as is why most who claim to be Christian are still living in sin and have no problem with sinful behavior in their lives because after all.... they think they were born to be sinners!
Davy
Well-Known Member
All you are doing is just rambling hot air, while trying... to make it seem that Scripture is backing you up when it ain't.
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
KJV
Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
KJV
Well let's see, duh..., just by WHAT ONE MAN did sin enter into the world, and thus death by that sin imparted to all??? Duh... that was ADAM that sinned first I do believe. Yeah, that's the ticket, it was the man ADAM! Arguing over those above simple Bible Scriptures by Apostle Paul is just stupid.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Looks like you deserve my same answer I gave to Rightglory...
All you are doing is just rambling hot air, while trying... to make it seem that Scripture is backing you up when it ain't.
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
KJV
Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
KJV
Well let's see, duh..., just by WHAT ONE MAN did sin enter into the world, and thus death by that sin imparted to all??? Duh... that was ADAM that sinned first I do believe. Yeah, that's the ticket, it was the man ADAM! Arguing over those above simple Bible Scriptures by Apostle Paul is just stupid.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Those claiming what Adam did made all people to be sinners... so WHY do they not believe verse 19 and apply the same logic???? (They got sin on their mind and are sin conscience, that's why... after all they think they were born to be sinners!)
If they did that then they would have to now claim that all have been made righteous thru the actions of Jesus and nobody is a sinner anymore.... which is how some become a universalist
Well, then I guess Davy boy has a good excuse to continue living in sin....
He thinks he was born a sinner and God made him to be a sinner...
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Those claiming what Adam did made all people to be sinners... so WHY do they not believe verse 19 and apply the same logic???? (They got sin on their mind and are sin conscience, that's why... after all they think they were born to be sinners!)
If they did that then they would have to now claim that all have been made righteous thru the actions of Jesus and nobody is a sinner anymore.... which is how some become a universalist
Well, then I guess Davy boy has a good excuse to continue living in sin....
He thinks he was born a sinner and God made him to be a sinner...
I would say you are rambling since you had not rational response to my post. You just admitted you do not understand the texts in question.
What is the judgment that came to all men?
If you don't understand Rom 5:12, then how can you miss Vs 18. It does not even mention sin. It speaks about condemnation of that sin, and the reverse of Adam done by Christ was giving life to ALL MEN. The comparison is death to life. This is referencing physical death.
The condemnation to Adam was death, NOT sin. Gen 3:19,
Verse 18 helps to understand what verse 19 means. The two are saying the exact same thing but 18 tells us what is being compared.
The issue is what did Adam do, and what did Christ do.
Adam sinned, which resulted in condemnation, that condemnation was death, physical death, man became mortal. What did Christ do, His Incarnation, taking on our human nature reversed this condemnation, death, by giving life to all men. This statement has NOTHING to do with believers, except that Christ's work of redemption made it possible for man to again have a relationship with God that has eternal consequences. Which is why it has nothing to do with Univeralism. That is your total misunderstanding of Christ's work and what Univeralism actually means.
It amazes me so many do not understand the fall of man, the redemption of man (world) by one of the marks of Christianity, the Incarnation of Christ.
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