Which Millennium is better? Amil's or Premil's proposed millennium?

[grafted branch]

No, because there is no verse that claims God deceives human, period.

This verse (16) states God, because God is the he, not Satan: Revelation 16:14-16

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty (the noun doing the action)." Behold, I (God Almighty as Jesus Christ) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (God Almighty) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Revelation 16 is for God's purposes.

Revelation 20 is for Satan:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth."

God is not found as the noun doing the action, but Satan is the one loosed and is deceiving. There is no "he" to point back, but Satan is the only noun singled out.

Pulpit Commentary



Verse 16. - And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon; or, as in the Revised Version, they gathered; that is, the "spirits" of ver. 14, of which this is a continuation, the same verb συνάγω being repeated.

 

[Davidpt]

Zec 14:12
(12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Yes, fulfilled. At the Cross. The Lord was talking about the fall of Old Testament Congregation as the kingdom representative was taken from her. So the people of that congregation (other than the Jewish Elect with Christ) will spiritually no longer represent the kingdom (their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet). They will be spiritually blind (eyes shall consume away in their holes), and they will spiritually no longer be spokesmen of God (their tongue shall consume away in their mouth).

What about verse 2 in Zechariah 14 then? Until that is fulfilled first, verse 12 can't be fulfilled in the meantime, in any sense. You don't interpret verse 2 to mean before the cross, do you? IOW, chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14 though some of these spiritual interpretations apparently ignore that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14. After all, Zechariah 14 involves prophecy. Since when does prophecy not involve chronology to some extent? Even if some things are meant spiritually, chronology is still relevant since there has to be a beginning of each of these things where one thing leads to another thing, etc. For example. One can't have verse 12 applied to them, in any sense, unless they came against Jerusalem first and that the Lord then fights against them. It doesn't matter what all that might look like. What matters is sensible chronology, not interpretations making nonsense out of chronology instead.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What about verse 2 in Zechariah 14 then? Until that is fulfilled first, verse 12 can't be fulfilled in the meantime, in any sense. You don't interpret verse 2 to mean before the cross, do you? IOW, chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14 though some of these spiritual interpretations apparently ignore that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14. After all, Zechariah 14 involves prophecy. Since when does prophecy not involve chronology to some extent?

Zec 14:2
(2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

So you think these will take place literally in Jersualem in the future? No. For example:

Lam 5:1-11
(1) Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach.
(2) Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens.
(3) We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers are as widows.
(4) We have drunken our water for money; our wood is sold unto us.
(5) Our necks are under persecution: we labour, and have no rest.
(6) We have given the hand to the Egyptians, and to the Assyrians, to be satisfied with bread.
(7) Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities.
(8) Servants have ruled over us: there is none that doth deliver us out of their hand.
(9) We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness.
(10) Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible famine.
(11) They ravished the women in Zion, and the maids in the cities of Judah.

The point is the fact that Zechariah mentions women being ravished does not mean that women will literally be raped at this time! The language is used to signify a judgment from God, and it is drawn from this passage in Lamentations where Prophet Jeremiah is describing the physical judgment of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians. This is what I meant when I said God uses the same language to describe the desolations of Jerusalem, whether physical or spiritual. Women being ravished in the Zechariah passage is simply a spiritual signification of God's judgment upon Jerusalem (in this case it is pointing to the judgment poured on Jesus Christ at the cross, and the spiritual blindness (Remember their eyes shall consume away in there holes?) were happening to Israel. There are many examples of God using language this way all throughout scripture, whether it is the wars, earthquakes, famines and nursing women in distress that we read about in the Olivet discourse, or the blindness of horses and flesh wasting away from people while they stand on their feet that we see in this prophecy in Zechariah. These things are not to be taken in a literal sense!! God uses this type of language to signify His judgments.

Selah.

 

[Davidpt]

Wait a minute here. Where does it indicate in Zechariah 14 that any rebellion that would occur (such as refusing to go to Jerusalem to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles) would only occur after the thousand years ends? And how does refusing to go to Jerusalem to worship equate to literally going to Jerusalem to attack "the camp of the saints"? Where is there any description in Zechariah 14 of anyone literally going to Jerusalem after the thousand years ends with the intention of attacking "the camp of the saints"?

Also, where is the binding and loosing of Satan ever referenced in Zechariah 14?

If things were initiually hidden in the OT and revealed in the NT, and that this basically is your position, you are being just as unreasonable as @WPM is if you are insisting that unless the OT said these things outright, then it can't be so. IOW, it contradicts that you expect things to be hidden in the OT then revealed in the NT, lol.

If verses 16-19 are meaning post the 2nd coming, and the fact they can be punished for not complying, this implies a possible rebellion eventually unless those verses are meaning forever, that it will be like that forever, these punishments hanging over their heads for failing to comply. But if there is a period of time after the 2nd coming, thus Revelation 20 and the millennium, that means Zechariah 14:16-19 has this future rebellion hidden in the text but then revealed in the NT. It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture. For some strange reason you are demanding that the OT interprets itself without the aid of the NT, then complaining when the OT doesn't outright do that, such as in Zechariah 14:16-19, even though your position is that things were hidden in the OT then revealed in the NT..

 

[Timtofly]

Of course the bottomless pit is symbolic as a bottomless pit is impossible a pit has to have a bottom.

Spirit beings or angels don't need a physical bottom. They just are denied freedom, and locked up. So will Satan one day, but currently is not.

Demons can come and go, and do. They are not locked up. Demons are the spirits of reprobate humans both dead from the time of the Flood until today, and many humans currently alive.

 

[Timtofly]

1. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
2. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
3. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
4. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
5. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
6. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
7. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Non sequitur. Comparing physical beings and physical acts, voids your own argument that John is talking about the spiritual world.

There is literally nothing a spirit in a spiritual prison in spiritual chains can be compared to via a physical "counterpart".

 

[Davidpt]

Zec 14:2
(2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

So you think these will take place literally in Jersualem in the future?

Not really. I don't take that to necessarily mean literal Jerusalem in the ME. But I think it might be involving the 42 month reign of the beast, though. And I don't take any of that to be involving the literal city Jerusalem in the ME.

The following is something I have noticed. Maybe a connection, maybe not.

Zec 14:2 says---and half of the city shall go forth into captivity

Revelation 13 says the following.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Both passages involve captivity. Are both passages involving the same things then? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't know for certain.

I tend to take the city meant in Zechariah 14:2 to be meaning the same holy city meant in Revelation 11:1-2, and that I don't take that city in the literal sense. Years ago I think I did take that city in the literal sense at the time. But that was years ago and this is now. I'm still Premil, regardless. By eventually changing my view concerning Revelation 11:1-2 did not make me want to abandon Premil.

Which also might mean--and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished(Zechariah 14:2)---could be connected with the following---Revelation 13:5,7. IOW, no literal women literally getting ravished. You instead make a connection with that of Lam 5:1-1. I don't know who might be right here, assuming one of us is?

 

[Davidpt]

Demons are the spirits of reprobate humans both dead from the time of the Flood until today, and many humans currently alive.

That's what I tend to think might be the case as well. And if so, so much for the thinking that the lost wake up in hell upon death and are burning in literal flames of fire. They can't be burning in hell if they are going about taking possession of humans still alive on the earth. Hmmm...maybe per Amil they could? After all, Amil, for instance, has satan bound in the pit and at the same time freely roaming about on the earth.

 

[Davidpt]

God brought His wrath upon the city of Jerusalem because of Israel’s disobedience. The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. The Roman Empire was a wicked, pagan and idolatrous culture. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). But God often uses whatever instruments He chooses to fulfil His purposes. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Roman Empire represented the Gentile nations of the known world at that time. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success and widely overthrew the prevailing heathenism.

What does any of that have to do with Zechariah 14:12? Nothing pertaining to 70 AD could possibly explain Zechariah 14:12. It is Preterist nonsense if one insists that Zechariah 14:12 can be explained per 70 AD. And look what precedes Zechariah 14:12.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Is one going to argue that 70 AD explains this as well? Look what the text says--And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Is that what happened in 70 AD, that instead of them being forcefully removed from Jerusalem, they instead remained there, thus men shall dwell in it?

IMO, we end up with nothing but a bunch of nonsense when we take any of Zechariah 14 to be involving the first century and 70 AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not really. I don't take that to necessarily mean literal Jerusalem in the ME. But I think it might be involving the 42 month reign of the beast, though. And I don't take any of that to be involving the literal city Jerusalem in the ME.

The following is something I have noticed. Maybe a connection, maybe not.

Zec 14:2 says---and half of the city shall go forth into captivity

Revelation 13 says the following.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Both passages involve captivity. Are both passages involving the same things then? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't know for certain.

Zechariah 14:2 talked about the fall of Old Testament congregation where the people of the congregation were led spiritual captivity as a judgment.

Revelation 13:10 talked about the fall of the New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming, where the people of the congregation were led to spiritual captivity as a judgment.

So no, they are not speaking about the same event, but the same judgment to both congregations of God.

I tend to take the city meant in Zechariah 14:2 to be meaning the same holy city meant in Revelation 11:1-2, and that I don't take that city in the literal sense. Years ago I think I did take that city in the literal sense at the time. But that was years ago and this is now. I'm still Premil, regardless. By eventually changing my view concerning Revelation 11:1-2 did not make me want to abandon Premil.

The holy city or great city in the book of Revelation before the Second Coming refers to God's New Testament congregation because of her kingdom representative that was given to her since the Cross. Nothing is said about literal Israel or literal Jeszualem in the Middle East at all!

Which also might mean--and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished(Zechariah 14:2)---could be connected with the following---Revelation 13:5,7. IOW, no literal women literally getting ravished. You instead make a connection with that of Lam 5:1-1. I don't know who might be right here, assuming either of us are?

Again like I have said many times, God uses this type of language to signify His judgments upon his unfaithful church in a spiritual sense!

There will be no massive physical raping, physical seizure of people into nations, etc. Rather, the congregation has been assaulted by the enemy from within, to take a spoil, to take a prey upon the Truth, and lead the deceived people who have not yet been sealed by God IN THE CHURCH to lead away into spiritual captivity. It is all part of God's judgment. It is the same language when you read about the whore:

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The whore symbolizes the unfaithful congregation described in the New Testament right prior to the Second Coming. The false prophets and false Christs represent the ten horns that receive the power from the beast to deceive those who do not yet have the seal of God (within the congregation-woman). Their actions leave the congregation spiritually naked and desolate. This destruction mirrors God’s judgment against Old Testament Israel, as seen in Zechariah 14, where their kingdom is destroyed and burned with fire.

Spiritually speaking! Not literal!

 

[TribulationSigns]

IMO, we end up with nothing but a bunch of nonsense when we take any of Zechariah 14 to be involving the first century and 70 AD.

I agree. I do not support Preterism's interpretation of Zechariah 14. This has nothing to do with physical Jersualem, temple, and 70AD.

Zechariah 14 took place at the Cross where all nations, including us, came against him, the pouring of the Holy Spirit from the Cross to the Old Testament (former sea) and the New Testament (hinder sea). The church now represents the Kingdom of God by keeping the feast of tabernacles for the past 2,000 years as long as the church is being built. Nowhere in Zechariah 14 has anything to do with 70AD.

Learn more about the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no detail in Revelation 20 that corresponds to Zechariah 14.

There is no detail in Revelation 20, that defines the last 2 alleged 1,000 years, you call a millennium.

 

[Davidpt]

Zechariah 14:2 talked about the fall of Old Testament congregation where the people of the congregation were led spiritual captivity as a judgment.

Revelation 13:10 talked about the fall of the New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming, where the people of the congregation were led to spiritual captivity as a judgment.

So no, they are not speaking about the same event, but the same judgment to both congregations of God.


The holy city or great city in the book of Revelation before the Second Coming refers to God's New Testament congregation because of her kingdom representative that was given to her since the Cross. Nothing is said about literal Israel or literal Jeszualem in the Middle East at all!

Again like I have said many times, God uses this type of language to signify His judgments upon his unfaithful church in a spiritual sense!

There will be no massive physical raping, physical seizure of people into nations, etc. Rather, the congregation has been assaulted by the enemy from within, to take a spoil, to take a prey upon the Truth, and lead the deceived people who have not yet been sealed by God IN THE CHURCH to lead away into spiritual captivity. It is all part of God's judgment. It is the same language when you read about the whore:

Rev 17:16-18
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The whore symbolizes the unfaithful congregation described in the New Testament right prior to the Second Coming. The false prophets and false Christs represent the ten horns that receive the power from the beast to deceive those who do not yet have the seal of God (within the congregation-woman). Their actions leave the congregation spiritually naked and desolate. This destruction mirrors God’s judgment against Old Testament Israel, as seen in Zechariah 14, where their kingdom is destroyed and burned with fire.

Spiritually speaking! Not literal!

Some of this I can maybe somewhat agree with you about. But even so, in my mind Zechariah 14:12 has not come to pass yet, in any sense. And until Zechariah 14:12 comes to pass, Zechariah 14:16-19 can't come to pass in the meantime. And that presents a major problem for any view other than Premil. Premil has a period of time following the 2nd coming where verses 16-19 can be fulfilled. Amil nor any other view does. Once again, IMO, verses 16-19 can't get fulfilled until verse 12 gets fulfilled first. And that verse 12 can't get fulfilled until verses 2-5 are fulfilled first. Of course though, I use step logic not block logic to try and determine these things. The same way, for example, that I use step logic not block logic, to determine that Christ was initially in heaven, then came to the earth when He was born, then He eventually left and will eventually return. Thus chronology is relevant. It helps make sense of some of these things.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Some of this I can maybe somewhat agree with you about. But even so, in my mind Zechariah 14:12 has not come to pass yet, in any sense. And until Zechariah 14:12 comes to pass, Zechariah 14:16-19 can't come to pass in the meantime. And that presents a major problem for any view other than Premil. Premil has a period of time following the 2nd coming where verses 16-19 can be fulfilled. Amil nor any other view does. Once again, IMO, verses 16-19 can't get fulfilled until verse 12 gets fulfilled first. And that verse 12 can't get fulfilled until verses 2-5 are fulfilled first. Of course though, I use step logic not block logic to try and determine these things. The same way, for example, that I use step logic not block logic, to determine that Christ was initially in heaven, then came to the earth when He was born, then He eventually left and will eventually return. Thus chronology is relevant. It helps make sense of some of these things.

Read the feast of tabernacle article link above. It will explain clear!

 

[WPM]

Who are these billions of satanists in the final days of your millennium since they have to be alive in the final days of your millennium if they are present after the final days of your millennium? Why do they need to be deceived yet again after your millennium when your millennium already has them deceived during it?

It is all the unregenerate who buy into the end-time antichrist lie. This is when the restraint is lifted and the mystery of lawlessness is released in his final attack upon man. This is Satan;'s little season as predicted in Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

OK then, who are the billions of satanists that overrun your millennium at the end?

Where are billions of satanist found in Revelation 20?

Was Eve a satanist deceived by Satan?

People are deceived every day, but not all of them are satanist.

How do you know there are billions? Is that your symbolic assessment of your millennium, that it only has satanist on earth with a few believers scattered here and there?

 

[Davidpt]

God brought His wrath upon the city of Jerusalem because of Israel’s disobedience. The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. The Roman Empire was a wicked, pagan and idolatrous culture. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). But God often uses whatever instruments He chooses to fulfil His purposes. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Roman Empire represented the Gentile nations of the known world at that time. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success and widely overthrew the prevailing heathenism.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


You would have us believe that the Romans in the first century equal ALL nations. You would also have us believe that only half the city went into captivity while the residue of the people were not cut off from the city in 70 AD.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


Then you would have us believe that the LORD went forth, and fought against the Romans, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Then you would have us believe even more bizarre Preterist nonsense, that in 70 AD His feet stood upon the mount of Olives. And finally, you would have us believe, that in 70 AD the LORD God came, and all the saints with thee.

After all, verse 4 and 5 obviously can't get fulfilled, in any sense, until verse 2 and 3 are fulfilled first. That's just common sense. And if one is applying verse 2 and 3 to 70 AD, one has to do the same with verse 4 and 5. Thus Preterist nonsense. Per your interpretation of Zechariah 14 you agree with Preterists about the coming meant in Matthew 24:30, that it was a coming in 70 AD. Then you contradict that you agree with them by arguing that the coming in Matthew 24:30 is the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in 70 AD. You are one confused interpreter, no doubt. That's typically what happens when one allows Commentators on the web, authors of books, so on and so on, to do some of their thinking for them. They can't keep their story straight and consistent. Because that is typically what happens when truth is not on their side.

 

[WPM]

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


You would have us believe that the Romans in the first century equal ALL nations. You would also have us believe that only half the city went into captivity while the residue of the people were not cut off from the city in 70 AD.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


Then you would have us believe that the LORD went forth, and fought against the Romans, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Then you would have us believe even more bizarre Preterist nonsense, that in 70 AD His feet stood upon the mount of Olives. And finally, you would have us believe, that in 70 AD the LORD God came, and all the saints with thee.

After all, verse 4 and 5 obviously can't get fulfilled, in any sense, until verse 2 and 3 are fulfilled first. That's just common sense. And if one is applying verse 2 and 3 to 70 AD, one has to do the same with verse 4 and 5. Thus Preterist nonsense. Per your interpretation of Zechariah 14 you agree with Preterists about the coming meant in Matthew 24:30, that it was a coming in 70 AD. Then you contradict that you agree with them by arguing that the coming in Matthew 24:30 is the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in 70 AD. You are one confused interpreter, no doubt. That's typically what happens when one allows Commentators on the web, authors of books, so on and so on, to do some of their thinking for them. They can't keep their story straight and consistent. Because that is typically what happens when truth is not on their side.

Why do you not mention verse 1?

 

[Davidpt]

I agree. I do not support Preterism's interpretation of Zechariah 14. This has nothing to do with physical Jersualem, temple, and 70AD.

Zechariah 14 took place at the Cross where all nations, including us, came against him, the pouring of the Holy Spirit from the Cross to the Old Testament (former sea) and the New Testament (hinder sea). The church now represents the Kingdom of God by keeping the feast of tabernacles for the past 2,000 years as long as the church is being built. Nowhere in Zechariah 14 has anything to do with 70AD.

Learn more about the Feast of Tabernacles.

I have read that article in the past the fact I have been aware of mountainretreatorg for quite some time now. Maybe 15 years or more.

A cpl of things to note. Until Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first, verses 16-19 can't be fulfilled in the meantime. I already know how you interpret Zechariah 14:12 and what you apply it to. Except I disagree big time that you are interpreting it correctly and applying it correctly.

Let me ask you this.


Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Do you agree or disagree that these verses are involving the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age? Why this matters is simple. It is because Zechariah 14:5 records the exact same event per the following---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

IOW, ten thousands of His saints is simply another way to express all the saints. Jude 1 says ten thousands of His saints. Zechariah 14:5 says all of His saints.

Unless one is at least being consistent about things, I'm not even going to entertain that they might be correct. Anyone who insists Jude 1:14-15 involves the 2nd coming in the end of the age but Zechariah 14:5 doesn't, is an example of one not being consistent about things. Therefore, not worthy of entertaining their interpretation of Zechariah 14.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Do you agree or disagree that these verses are involving the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age? Why this matters is simple.

It is because Zechariah 14:5 records the exact same event per the following---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

IOW, ten thousands of His saints is simply another way to express all the saints. Jude 1 says ten thousands of His saints. Zechariah 14:5 says all of His saints.

Unless one is at least being consistent about things, I'm not even going to entertain that they might be correct. Anyone who insists Jude 1:14-15 involves the 2nd coming in the end of the age but Zechariah 14:5 doesn't, is an example of one not being consistent about things. Therefore, not worthy of entertaining their interpretation of Zechariah 14.

You misunderstood Zechariah 14 again. You are working too hard to try to twist Zechariah 14 into Second Coming because you like to believe there will be some mountains being literally divided when Christ returns with his Saints. But it is not what the Word for God talked about! Please read carefully in context:

Zec 14:3-8
(3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
(4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(6) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
(7) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
(8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

This is STILL talking about the FIRST COMING. So you need to understand that the Bible is a SPIRITUAL BOOK, not a seismologist's ledger. God is not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make the point about the cleaving of the KINGDOM that a way be made for the remnant of the fallen Old Testament congregation into the New Testament congregation to start the great commission. Selah! Read again:

Zechariah 14:4
(4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Mat 17:20
(20) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom He Christ spoiled, bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel. The faith of Christ moves this mountain, and the mountain in view is not physical, but a spiritual one! Have you forgotten that the mountains in God's Word represent Kingdoms? And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, and that the violence took by force. This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant of the fallen Old Testament congregation to escape into the New Testament congregation to start their great commission! The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast into the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross. This is how the Saints is being added to the Lord, but it is not the Second Coming yet. And you need to read in verse 8 where the Holy Spirit went forth from the Cross to the Old Testament (former sea) and New Testament (hinder sea). Obviously not talking about the Second Coming, dude!