Which Millennium is better? Amil's or Premil's proposed millennium?

[TribulationSigns]

If you insist on having it your way, for starters then, convincingly explain Revelation 15:4 and show how that fits Amil not Premil. In particular, what I have underlined below. Keeping in mind that these judgments are not against any nations already doing that, these judgments are against any nations not doing that, and that the text says-- for all nations shall come and worship before thee. And here it is almost 2025 AD and have I yet to see this fulfilled.

I reiterate that our millennial position is the core establishment of the Church in the New Testament era. My positions are irrelevant, the position laid out in God's Word is both relevant and necessary for sound doctrine. Which I assume we both believe is important, agree? The correct understanding of the millennial reign of Christ, and us with Him, is the principle time of EVANGELISM of the church commanded in the great commission of our duty to God and the world in this time period. The millennial period is NOT about physical nations, sitting in physical Jersualem, freeing physical nations, etc. etc. It is about our being tasked with God's servant Israel, to take the gospel message to the ends of the Earth. I know that you want to put the emphasis on the "nation Israel", but the real emphasis is on the sealing of the Spirit of the man Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ! This is what the MIllennial reign of Christ on Eart is for! I do not believe there is any truth in minimizing the millennial position, "of God," not the purpose of the Saints that He has tasked to live and reign in it.
Isaiah 49:3-6

• "And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
• Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
• And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
• And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

Too many professing Christians are unaware that Christ "IS" Israel Himself, and the church age is the millennial reign of Christ, and we should not be minimizing this truth of it.

Also, the nations here are talking about spiritual GENTILES. Not geopolitical nations like Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, or Cuba coming to Christ. It is PEOPLE. How?

1st Corinthians 7:23

• "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men."

That Greek word bought [agorazo] means purchased or redeemed by some action or cost, and I find no scripture "anywhere" which shows that God redeemed or purchased "ALL MEN" by His cross or any other way. Purchased for what, from what? We have an enigma!

In point of fact, God already had the right to reign, and was already the sovereign Lord and absolute Despot of all things, even before the cross. In other words, He hasn't bought the right to rule ALL MEN by death and ascension to the throne, he already had that right. He bought or purchased the RIGHT to rule over "ALL MEN," meaning all nations for the kingdom (Revelation chapter 20). All those who were in spiritual bondage to Satan, He bought the right to rule the nations who didn't know God, but have now become part of "His" kingdom. Two rules, two rulers, but with Christ purchasing the nations from the hand of the strong one, Satan! He needed to "PURCHASE" nothing else!

Jeremiah 31:11

• "For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."

For example, Christ spoiled the Kingdom of Satan who ruled over "ALL MEN," that He now has rule over the nations (Gentiles)...that these nations are no longer deceived, they are bought, they are the Israel of God with Christ having purchased rule by His blood. And obviously (from the reformed view) He purchased no unsaved people by His blood. It is particular redemption! And there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) that declares that He Purchased, Bought, Redeemed, or Paid for, those who are unsaved.

God didn't purchase right to rule the unsaved by the cross, in the true picture God ultimately ruled/rules over all, but Satan was still the Prince or ruler of this world by reason of the fall. Christ came to loose his prisoners so that the nations not be deceived, and the Gentiles might also reign with Him through His shed blood. That is who are bought with a price.

John 12:31

• "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Cast out of the world for who and for what purpose? It was for the nations that Satan was bound and cast into the bottomless pit. It was done for the election of the nations, that those Chosen of God might be sealed! And after the thousand years, Satan is loosed. The point being, Christ did not come to purchase all nations or all men without exception, but all nations and all men without distinction. He purchased the right to rule the nations that they were no longer deceived under Satan's reign, but made fellow-heirs of the commonwealth of Israel. In apostasy, those who claim to be bought but are wolves in sheep's clothing were never bought but part of "ANOTHER" Kingdom and rule.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What about these locusts in Revelation 9? Aren't they in the same pit satan finds himself cast into? Why is it that it is as if they don't even exist while in the pit? What explains that?

The smoke locusts symbolize false prophets and false Christs influenced by the spirit of the Antichrist, especially after the release of Satan. Remember that Satan, being a spirit, will be revealed through individuals who operate under his influence and perform deceptive signs and wonders that mislead the "spiritual Gentiles" (nations) WITHIN the congregations of God. These individuals WITHIN have not yet been sealed by God, despite being part of God's church corporately. They are professed Christians and will be the ones who receive the mark of the beast in order to buy and sell the lies perpetuated by the false prophets and Christs.

The issue lies with people who have a carnal mind, thinking there will be a physical mark that is tattooed or implanted on "everyone" in the whole world to buy food, clothing, shelter, etc. This is not what God is talking about here!

 

[Davidpt]

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no likeness.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Let's start with this verse. This verse proves that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14. And the following is one way it proves it.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 12 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 12 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 12 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former. And we need to keep this in mind since there is still verses 16-19 to consider. Let's start with verse 16 for now.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 16 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 16 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 16 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former.

Thus far we know that verse 12 is meaning after verse 2 and that verse 16 is also meaning after verse 2.

Now it's just a matter of verse 12 in relation to verse 16, chronologically speaking.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Has verse 12 already been fulfilled yet? Of course not. Not one single thing per the past 2000 years even remotely explains verse 12, and everyone knows it, including you.

Look what verse 16 says---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

Obviously, if there is those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem it has to be meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled. Before it is fulfilled everyone is still left of the nations that came against Jerusalem since nothing has happened to them until verse 12 is fulfilled first, obviously.

IOW, something like this.

All nations are gathered against Jerusalem to battle. Nothing has happened to any of them until verse 12 is fulfilled. In the meantime they all still remain, obviously. After all, how can they fulfill verse 2 unless they all still remain? How can they fulfill verse 2 if verse 12 has already happened to them? Obviously then, verse 16 is talking about those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled.

And what does verse 16 plainly say? shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts. Regardless what that might look like to do that, one can't go up from year to year in a single 24 hour day or less.

Even if some Amils who are not letting doctrinal bias stand in their way, thus agree that verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, what do they then do with verse 16 after verse 12 is fulfilled? Per Amil there would be no more days after verse 12 is fulfilled in order for those remaining to go up from year to year. That wouldn't even be a problem if it was for the following.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

We already know from verse 16 this is meaning every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. And it speaks of punishment if one fails to comply. These in verse 16 and 17 can't mean eternally saved saints since it is ludicrous that the eternally saved after Christ has returned can then be threatened with being punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

We are then presented with this problem. Unless there is a time period with a beginning and an end following the 2nd coming that can explain verses 16-19, we have no choice but to conclude verses 16-19 are meaning it will be like that forever since nothing would prevent it from continuing in that manner.

And finally, the fact there are punishments involved, this implies the rebellion after the thousand years, that when satan deceives them, they somehow think they can overthrow Christ and His one world government that has been governing them for a thousand years.

At least it makes more sense than Amil's proposed millennium where not only does satan deceive those in Revelation 20:8, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, after the millennium, these same ones meant, satan also deceives them during the millennium since they just don't appear out of nowhere all of a sudden. IOW, if they are present after Amil's proposed millennium, they are also present during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, obviously.

They are obviously not among the saved if it is the saved that they are coming against after the millennium. Which then means, during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, satan has already deceived them, then he deceives them yet again. But why, if he already deceived them during the millennium before it ended?

Amil can't even make sense of these for us in Revelation 20:8, their role during the final days of the millennium. But then find fault with Premil's proposed millennium.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I will only respond to one verse above to give you an idea of why your interpretation is wrong. The chapter of Zechariah 14 was prophesied about the FIRST coming of Christ with the fall of the Old Testament congregation and the establishment of the New Testament congregation as the Millennial Kingdom to be observed as a feast of tabernacles that all Elect took part of.

One needs to read the article about the Feast of Tabernacles here explaining how it relates to the Millennial Kingdom.

Now, verse 12 talks about the plague that struck upon the Old Testament Congregation that they no longer represent the Kingdom of God because they rejected the Messiah.

The plague was NOT a nuclear blast as most people thought. See that word, "plague"? That means we should define plagues BY SCRIPTURE, not by current events or your favorite televangelist prognosticators. We don't privately interprett a plague to mean a nuclear blast at all! If we are going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun (@Keraz 's pet) closer towards the Earth to do it? I mean, if we are just going to guess at it. Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from behind the moon coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the Scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations! It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagues as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define loss of eyes as illustrated in God's word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination.

The people in verse 12 were the unbelieving Jews who had fought against Christ (represents Jersualem). As a judgment, their eyes shall consume away in their holes means that they will be blind to God's Word. Their tongues shall consume away in their mouths means they are no longer spokesmen of God. In other words, the Old Testament congregation has lost their kingdom representative that Christ Jesus took it from them and gave to the New Testament Congregation which is NOW representing the kingdom of God since Pentecost where we, Christians now see the Truth and become a spokesperson for the kingdom of God.

Selah!

 

[Davidpt]

I will only respond to one verse above to give you an idea of why your interpretation is wrong. The chapter of Zechariah 14 was prophesied about the FIRST coming of Christ with the fall of the Old Testament congregation and the establishment of the New Testament congregation as the Millennial Kingdom to be observed as a feast of tabernacles that all Elect took part of.

One needs to read the article about the Feast of Tabernacles here explaining how it relates to the Millennial Kingdom.

Now, verse 12 talks about the plague that struck upon the Old Testament Congregation that they no longer represent the Kingdom of God because they rejected the Messiah.

The plague was NOT a nuclear blast as most people thought. See that word, "plague"? That means we should define plagues BY SCRIPTURE, not by current events or your favorite televangelist prognosticators. We don't privately interprett a plague to mean a nuclear blast at all! If we are going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun (@Keraz 's pet) closer towards the Earth to do it? I mean, if we are just going to guess at it. Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from behind the moon coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the Scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations! It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagues as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define loss of eyes as illustrated in God's word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination.

The people in verse 12 were the unbelieving Jews who had fought against Christ (represents Jersualem). As a judgment, their eyes shall consume away in their holes means that they will be blind to God's Word. Their tongues shall consume away in their mouths means they are no longer spokesmen of God. In other words, the Old Testament congregation has lost their kingdom representative that Christ Jesus took it from them and gave to the New Testament Congregation which is NOW representing the kingdom of God since Pentecost where we, Christians now see the Truth and become a spokesperson for the kingdom of God.

Selah!

Here's what sums up your post quite nicely--it's called doctrinal bias.

That aside. Though, there might be some interpreters who take the plagues in verse 12 to be meaning the after affects of nuclear weapons, I'm not one that does. I can read what the text says. The text indicates God Himself brings about these plagues. God doesn't need man made weapons, such as nuclear bombs, in order to accomplish things like that. Therefore, even if verse 12 is meaning in the future still, and surely it is, it won't be accomplished via man made weapons, such as nuclear bombs. As if God cannot do any of those things unless man helps Him do it via man made nuclear bombs, etc.

If nothing else, we at least agree that it isn't involving man made weapons. But even so, we are still miles apart here because you are obviously letting doctrinal bias get in the way, thus can't even admit that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled. Because then you have to explain what to do with verses 16-19 after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future.

BTW, why is it, in one breath, per other posts involving the Discourse, for example, you are adamant that none of it has anything to do with 70 AD? While in another breath, this post, now you are all of a sudden adamant that Zechariah 14 has to do with 70 AD? As if it makes sense that God had wrath on unbelieving Jews in the first century, then He has a change of heart and decides to go forth and fight those nations on their behalf, meaning the unbelieving Jews that were slaughtered, Zechariah:14:3. Which then begs the question, what nations? The text says nations not nation. Were the Romans nations? Maybe you should consult one of your sources for things like this, meaning what Josephus had to say about it? Then get back to us on that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

BTW, why is it, in one breath, per other posts involving the Discourse, for example, you are adamant that none of it has anything to do with 70 AD? While in another breath, this post, now you are all of a sudden adamant that Zechariah 14 has to do with 70 AD?

Sigh! I NEVER mentioned that Zechariah 14 have anthing to do with 70AD. You may have misunderstood with someone else eho may be Preterist . Or you may not reading my post well.

The fall of old testament congregation, IMHO, has nothing to do with 70ad nor the preterism. It fell at the cross. Period.

Read the article!

 

[WPM]

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Let's start with this verse. This verse proves that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14. And the following is one way it proves it.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 12 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 12 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 12 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former. And we need to keep this in mind since there is still verses 16-19 to consider. Let's start with verse 16 for now.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 16 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 16 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 16 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former.

Thus far we know that verse 12 is meaning after verse 2 and that verse 16 is also meaning after verse 2.

Now it's just a matter of verse 12 in relation to verse 16, chronologically speaking.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Has verse 12 already been fulfilled yet? Of course not. Not one single thing per the past 2000 years even remotely explains verse 12, and everyone knows it, including you.

Look what verse 16 says---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

Obviously, if there is those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem it has to be meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled. Before it is fulfilled everyone is still left of the nations that came against Jerusalem since nothing has happened to them until verse 12 is fulfilled first, obviously.

IOW, something like this.

All nations are gathered against Jerusalem to battle. Nothing has happened to any of them until verse 12 is fulfilled. In the meantime they all still remain, obviously. After all, how can they fulfill verse 2 unless they all still remain? How can they fulfill verse 2 if verse 12 has already happened to them? Obviously then, verse 16 is talking about those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled.

And what does verse 16 plainly say? shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts. Regardless what that might look like to do that, one can't go up from year to year in a single 24 hour day or less.

Even if some Amils who are not letting doctrinal bias stand in their way, thus agree that verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, what do they then do with verse 16 after verse 12 is fulfilled? Per Amil there would be no more days after verse 12 is fulfilled in order for those remaining to go up from year to year. That wouldn't even be a problem if it was for the following.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

We already know from verse 16 this is meaning every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. And it speaks of punishment if one fails to comply. These in verse 16 and 17 can't mean eternally saved saints since it is ludicrous that the eternally saved after Christ has returned can then be threatened with being punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

We are then presented with this problem. Unless there is a time period with a beginning and an end following the 2nd coming that can explain verses 16-19, we have no choice but to conclude verses 16-19 are meaning it will be like that forever since nothing would prevent it from continuing in that manner.

And finally, the fact there are punishments involved, this implies the rebellion after the thousand years, that when satan deceives them, they somehow think they can overthrow Christ and His one world government that has been governing them for a thousand years.

At least it makes more sense than Amil's proposed millennium where not only does satan deceive those in Revelation 20:8, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, after the millennium, these same ones meant, satan also deceives them during the millennium since they just don't appear out of nowhere all of a sudden. IOW, if they are present after Amil's proposed millennium, they are also present during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, obviously.

They are obviously not among the saved if it is the saved that they are coming against after the millennium. Which then means, during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, satan has already deceived them, then he deceives them yet again. But why, if he already deceived them during the millennium before it ended?

Amil can't even make sense of these for us in Revelation 20:8, their role during the final days of the millennium. But then find fault with Premil's proposed millennium.

There is no detail in Revelation 20 that corresponds to Zechariah 14. You are foisting this upon the text, as you do. Premillennialists have a habit of explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament passages with the vague and more-challenging Old Testament passages. This is horrible hermeneutics. That is because, because of their obscure nature, they’re able to translate them to mean whatever they want them to be. It is the same with the book of Revelation. That is where Premillennialists mainly pitch their tent. They have to!

Zechariah 14 was written 500 years or so before Christ. While the Old Testament prophets were anticipating the Messiah, they did not have a full grasp on the nature of his earthly ministry and New Testament events. In fact, they looked through an obscure glass. They also didn’t have a clear picture of the distinction between the first coming on the second coming. Much of Zechariah's writing is obscure and shrouded in figurative terms and old covenant vernacular. Thankfully today, we have the benefit of the New Testament that helps us dissect many of these Old Testament passages. What was vague and indistinct in the old is clear and explicit in the New Testament account.

 

[WPM]

Here's what sums up your post quite nicely--it's called doctrinal bias.

That aside. Though, there might be some interpreters who take the plagues in verse 12 to be meaning the after affects of nuclear weapons, I'm not one that does. I can read what the text says. The text indicates God Himself brings about these plagues. God doesn't need man made weapons, such as nuclear bombs, in order to accomplish things like that. Therefore, even if verse 12 is meaning in the future still, and surely it is, it won't be accomplished via man made weapons, such as nuclear bombs. As if God cannot do any of those things unless man helps Him do it via man made nuclear bombs, etc.

If nothing else, we at least agree that it isn't involving man made weapons. But even so, we are still miles apart here because you are obviously letting doctrinal bias get in the way, thus can't even admit that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled. Because then you have to explain what to do with verses 16-19 after verse 12 is fulfilled in the future.

BTW, why is it, in one breath, per other posts involving the Discourse, for example, you are adamant that none of it has anything to do with 70 AD? While in another breath, this post, now you are all of a sudden adamant that Zechariah 14 has to do with 70 AD? As if it makes sense that God had wrath on unbelieving Jews in the first century, then He has a change of heart and decides to go forth and fight those nations on their behalf, meaning the unbelieving Jews that were slaughtered, Zechariah:14:3. Which then begs the question, what nations? The text says nations not nation. Were the Romans nations? Maybe you should consult one of your sources for things like this, meaning what Josephus had to say about it? Then get back to us on that.

God brought His wrath upon the city of Jerusalem because of Israel’s disobedience. The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. The Roman Empire was a wicked, pagan and idolatrous culture. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). But God often uses whatever instruments He chooses to fulfil His purposes. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Roman Empire represented the Gentile nations of the known world at that time. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success and widely overthrew the prevailing heathenism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is such a thing as delegates that can do that for each nation involved.

Explain this to me in detail how that would work.

But let's just pretend it is literally meaning every single person on the planet, that way the absurdity of such a thing as that alone disproves Premil.

I never said it's every single person on the planet, but it does say they number "as the sand of the sea".

When is the last time you ever heard of, for example, the USA sending every single American to another country to discuss things with them rather than sending a few delegates that represent the USA in order to discuss things with them?

How does "a few delegates" from each nation number "as the sand of the sea"?

Therefore, a future millennium is impossible based on this alone. That is a straw man argument, just like your argument that if some of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that means it involves animal sacrificing in that case, therefore, none of it can be meaning post the 2nd coming. Except some of us disagree that there will be any animal sacrificing going on during a future millennium.

You can disagree all you want, but if you interpret Zechariah 14:16-21 in a literal, futurist sense then that is exactly what you believe because observing the feast of tabernacles literally the way it used to be would involve performing animal sacrifices. Unless you can explain how else that passage should be understood in a futurist sense.

IOW, you are purposely misrepresenting our view by insisting animal sacrificing takes place in the future millennium if any of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming even after some of us already plainly told you we don't interpret it to mean that.

I'm not misrepresenting what some premils believe about that and I'm not misrepresenting what it implies if Zechariah 14:16-21 is supposed to be understood in a literal, futurist sense. You're just trying to go out of your way to accuse me of misrepresenting premil, which I am not doing. It would be helpful if you would give some kind of explanation of how the premil view of Zechariah 14:16-21 could be possible without taking it literally. What is it talking about if it's meant to be understood spiritually or figuratively in a futurist sense?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure, that is possible. But is that the case in this case? Maybe, maybe not.

If the bottomless pit/abyss in Revelation 20 was literal, then we'd have to conclude that everything written in relation to it is literal as well. Which would mean that the chain that binds the dragon, Satan, is literal as well. Is that what you believe?

What about these locusts in Revelation 9? Aren't they in the same pit satan finds himself cast into?

Yes, they are. It makes sense to me that if Satan is bound in the pit, then his angels would be as well. And I believe the locusts symbolically represent his angels. And the beast is (or was) there, too (Rev 17:8). You think that the beast is a human being. How can a man be bound in a literal bottomless pit/abyss when the literal abyss seems to be a spiritual place of some kind where demons/evil spirits can go rather than human beings?

Why is it that it is as if they don't even exist while in the pit? What explains that?

That's your perspective because of thinking it's a literal pit. That's not my perspective, so I don't see those as being valid questions. I believe it figuratively describes Satan, the demonic locusts and the beast as being in the pit and is a way of describing them being restrained from doing certain thing rather than being literally bound in a literal pit and completely incapacitated.

Until they are released from the pit they are not even relevant in the meantime.

How do you figure? Where does it say that? That view is based only on your assumption that it's a literal pit. The only thing we can say for certain is that they were previous unable to do the things that they do once they are released. At least not to the extent that they do it after being released. Anything beyond that is nothing more than speculation.

It comes across as if they are literally confined some place real where they can't esacpe until the pit is opened first.

Yes, if it was meant to be taken literally, it would give that impression, but it's not meant to be taken literally. For whatever reason, you have decided to take a literal approach to interpreting the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible.

In the meantime they are a zero problem in the earth, while satan is a continual problem in the earth. That seems strange to me if both are supposed to be in this same pit at the same time, why these locusts aren't a problem but satan still is?

Where does it say they are zero problem in the earth? In my view, the locusts symbolically represent demons. Fallen angels. Satan's angels, in other words (fallen angels are called "his angels" in Rev 12:9 and Matt 25:41). I'm sure you would agree that demons/fallen angels are active even before the fifth trumpet sounds, so in my view they are active even before that, but they are not doing what it describes them as doing after being released until then. To think that being in the pit results in being completely incapacitated instead of being restrained and kept from doing certain things (but not from doing anything at all) is a mistake on your part.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In your mind only, is the debate already over.

In my view, assuming there is a future millennium, it won't be about salvation since everyone that it to be eternally saved will already be so before the millennium begins. What then is the point of a future millennium, right? One point can maybe be that God fully gets His way for 1000 years. That He has everyone on the planet worshiping Him, and not just some like today where only the saved worship Him.

What do we do with the following which is apparently involving the final days of this age?

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


Some need to quit ignoring passages like this. The text says--for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. How is that fulfilled if we are in the end of this age per these judgments, yet the text is saying all nations shall come and worship before thee? The issue is not with any nations already doing that, coming and worshiping before Him, the issue is with the nations that are not doing that. When do they start doing that? During the future millennium, obviously.

This in Revelation 15:4---for all nations shall come and worship before thee--sounds like this in Zechariah 14:16 to me---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Not to mention, the following.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

If that is not involving any of the judgments pertaining to what Revelation 15:4 indicated, then I give up, Zechariah 14 shouldn't even be in the Bible because it's supposedly not connected to anything in the NT. We have to remember, in spite of these judgments there has to be people still remaining to fulfill this part recorded in Revelation 15:4---for all nations shall come and worship before thee.

Therefore, Revelation 15:4 and Zechariah 14:16 agree with each other, not contradict each other.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So, you think this verse is talking about something that will literally happen after Jesus returns. As in, you think that people will literally travel to Jerusalem every year worship Jesus/God and keep the feast of tabernacles. Tell me how that makes sense in light of what Jesus said here:

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, you believe that people will again be required to go to Jerusalem to worship God even though Jesus said "the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father" and "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him".

You think that once Jesus returns, God will, for some inexplicable reason, no longer require people to worship Him in spirit and in truth and will again require people to go to Jerusalem to worship Him. Please explain how that makes any sense. Where did Jesus give any indication that what He said in John 4:19-24 would one day no longer be true?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Let's start with this verse. This verse proves that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14. And the following is one way it proves it.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 12 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 12 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 12 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former. And we need to keep this in mind since there is still verses 16-19 to consider. Let's start with verse 16 for now.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Would anyone dare propose, then expected to be taken serious, that verse 16 is fulfilled first, then later on this is fulfilled in verse 2---and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

IOW, verse 16 precedes verse 2 chronologically rather than verse 16 follows verse 2 chronologically. Obviously, it's the latter that is true, not the former.

Thus far we know that verse 12 is meaning after verse 2 and that verse 16 is also meaning after verse 2.

Now it's just a matter of verse 12 in relation to verse 16, chronologically speaking.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Has verse 12 already been fulfilled yet? Of course not. Not one single thing per the past 2000 years even remotely explains verse 12, and everyone knows it, including you.

Look what verse 16 says---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

Obviously, if there is those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem it has to be meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled. Before it is fulfilled everyone is still left of the nations that came against Jerusalem since nothing has happened to them until verse 12 is fulfilled first, obviously.

IOW, something like this.

All nations are gathered against Jerusalem to battle. Nothing has happened to any of them until verse 12 is fulfilled. In the meantime they all still remain, obviously. After all, how can they fulfill verse 2 unless they all still remain? How can they fulfill verse 2 if verse 12 has already happened to them? Obviously then, verse 16 is talking about those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem after verse 12 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled.

And what does verse 16 plainly say? shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts. Regardless what that might look like to do that, one can't go up from year to year in a single 24 hour day or less.

Even if some Amils who are not letting doctrinal bias stand in their way, thus agree that verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, what do they then do with verse 16 after verse 12 is fulfilled? Per Amil there would be no more days after verse 12 is fulfilled in order for those remaining to go up from year to year. That wouldn't even be a problem if it was for the following.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

We already know from verse 16 this is meaning every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. And it speaks of punishment if one fails to comply. These in verse 16 and 17 can't mean eternally saved saints since it is ludicrous that the eternally saved after Christ has returned can then be threatened with being punished for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

We are then presented with this problem. Unless there is a time period with a beginning and an end following the 2nd coming that can explain verses 16-19, we have no choice but to conclude verses 16-19 are meaning it will be like that forever since nothing would prevent it from continuing in that manner.

And finally, the fact there are punishments involved, this implies the rebellion after the thousand years, that when satan deceives them, they somehow think they can overthrow Christ and His one world government that has been governing them for a thousand years.

Wait a minute here. Where does it indicate in Zechariah 14 that any rebellion that would occur (such as refusing to go to Jerusalem to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles) would only occur after the thousand years ends? And how does refusing to go to Jerusalem to worship equate to literally going to Jerusalem to attack "the camp of the saints"? Where is there any description in Zechariah 14 of anyone literally going to Jerusalem after the thousand years ends with the intention of attacking "the camp of the saints"?

Also, where is the binding and loosing of Satan ever referenced in Zechariah 14?

At least it makes more sense than Amil's proposed millennium where not only does satan deceive those in Revelation 20:8, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, after the millennium, these same ones meant, satan also deceives them during the millennium since they just don't appear out of nowhere all of a sudden. IOW, if they are present after Amil's proposed millennium, they are also present during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, obviously.

They are obviously not among the saved if it is the saved that they are coming against after the millennium. Which then means, during the final days of Amil's proposed millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, satan has already deceived them, then he deceives them yet again. But why, if he already deceived them during the millennium before it ended?

Amil can't even make sense of these for us in Revelation 20:8, their role during the final days of the millennium. But then find fault with Premil's proposed millennium.

Amil will never make sense to you while you insist on forcing your Premil perspective onto it. Also, you didn't really do what he asked, which was to compare Zechariah 14 directly to Revelation 20 to show how they are talking about the same things. You failed to show how the two passages relate directly to each other.

 

[Timtofly]

The Premil millennium has been portrayed for years as some Edenic arrangement with unparalleled bliss and wholesale submission to righteousness, when in fact it is simply more of the same. Basically, their millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding and the bondage of corruption prospering. You have continued death, decay, sickness, funerals, crying, hatred, strife and wickedness prospers. This all ends with rebellion in history.

This whole Premil presentation is a clear bust. It is a debacle. I am sure glad it is not going to happen.

That is not Scriptural, that the coming Day of the Lord is the same old sin cursed earth.

Both you and most Premil teach erroneously that sin continues, which blatantly contradicts Scripture, that all things will be restored prior to the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

That is not Scriptural, that the coming Day of the Lord is the same old sin cursed earth.

Both you and most Premil teach erroneously that sin continues, which blatantly contradicts Scripture, that all things will be restored prior to the start of the Day of the Lord.

OK then, who are the billions of satanists that overrun your millennium at the end?

 

[Timtofly]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the world will be free from Satan, sin, and experience world peace for 1,000 literal years. It states that Satan is simply being restrained, making it easier for those whom God has chosen to be sealed to receive the Gospel and be saved, while the rest of the world remains under Satan's rule.

What do you mean by "the rest of the world"?

The only humans left on the earth after the Second Coming are the redeemed.

Their offspring are neither sinners nor saved. One act of disobedience as a child and the death penalty is instant. Adam received the death penalty immediately upon disobedience. But this time, death will be in the LOF, not walking around on earth in a state of death.

Adam and Eve gave birth to the entire earth of sinners living in a state of death. That will not not cannot happen after the Second Coming.

Amil deny life can exist on earth after the Second Coming. If people are not given life and removed from death, the Second Coming was pointless.

All those living on earth after the Second Coming are no longer in a state of physical death, but they are still void of a spiritual aspect to their existence. They do not sin, because sin is part of death. They will think disobedience is a rare abnormality.

All who think disobedience is OK, will find themselves in the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

In Zechariah 14:2 it says “I” will gather, meaning it’s the Lord that gathers the nations against Jerusalem to battle. In Revelation 16:13-14 it’s the unclean spirits out of the dragon, beast, and false prophet that gather, which corresponds to Revelation 19:19 where it’s the beast’s and kings of the earth armies that are gathered.

There are a few references where the Lord gathers, Joel 3:2 and Isaiah 13:4-6 are good examples, but I don’t see any place in Revelation where it specifically states the Lord gathers the nations.

If you have Zechariah 14 occurring just before a future millennium, then where in Revelation does the Lord gather the nations against Jerusalem?

Zechariah 14:2 is not Revelation 16:13-14.

But God gathers both groups. The point evil spirits are used is not relevant, other than God uses Satan to gather all on the earth to Armageddon, because no human will be physically alive at that point.


Zechariah 14 is before the Second Coming. And against Jerusalem.

Armageddon is after the Second Coming, and is not against Jerusalem, but Satan defending Jerusalem against God.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, then by that same logic we can say that the Lord gathers at the end of the millennium also.

In order for that idea to be plausible we would need to see an instance where it can’t be said that the Lord gathers, else it seems to be somewhat random as to who gets the credit for gathering. Do you know of a verse that shows the nations being gathered where we can’t attribute it to the Lord?

No, because there is no verse that claims God deceives humans, period.

This verse (16) states God, because God is the he, not Satan: Revelation 16:14-16

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty (the noun doing the action)." Behold, I (God Almighty as Jesus Christ) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (God Almighty) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Revelation 16 is for God's purposes.

Revelation 20 is for Satan:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth."

God is not found as the noun doing the action, but Satan is the one loosed and is deceiving. There is no "he" to point back, but Satan is the only noun singled out.

 

[Davidpt]

I'm not misrepresenting what some premils believe about that and I'm not misrepresenting what it implies if Zechariah 14:16-21 is supposed to be understood in a literal, futurist sense. You're just trying to go out of your way to accuse me of misrepresenting premil, which I am not doing. It would be helpful if you would give some kind of explanation of how the premil view of Zechariah 14:16-21 could be possible without taking it literally. What is it talking about if it's meant to be understood spiritually or figuratively in a futurist sense?

Why would I be doing that, though? Maybe because you have done something similar to that to me in the past, insisted I was misrepresenting your view even though I wasn't. IOW, if you can dish it out you should be able to take it as well.

I fully understand, that in your mind, if any of these things are post the 2nd coming, this would indicate we have to take these things pertaining to animal sacrificing in the literal sense in that case. But even so, I don't interpret it to mean that since it is nonsensical that animal sacrificing would resume post the 2nd coming even if there is a millennium after the 2nd coming.

Therefore, assuming there is a millennium that follows the 2nd coming it won't be involving literal animal sacrificing, period. What some of that might look like if not meaning in a literal sense, that I can't tell you. Too bad none of this can fit the current age somehow instead. That would solve the problem if it could. It simply can't because until Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, verses 16-19 can't be fulfilled in the meantime. It is ludricrous that Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled, in any sense.

 

[Davidpt]

OK then, who are the billions of satanists that overrun your millennium at the end?

Who are these billions of satanists in the final days of your millennium since they have to be alive in the final days of your millennium if they are present after the final days of your millennium? Why do they need to be deceived yet again after your millennium when your millennium already has them deceived during it?

 

[TribulationSigns]

It simply can't because until Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, verses 16-19 can't be fulfilled in the meantime. It is ludricrous that Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled, in any sense.

Zec 14:12
(12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Yes, fulfilled. At the Cross. The Lord was talking about the fall of Old Testament Congregation as the kingdom representative was taken from her. So the people of that congregation (other than the Jewish Elect with Christ) will spiritually no longer represent the kingdom (their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet). They will be spiritually blind (eyes shall consume away in their holes), and they will spiritually no longer be spokesmen of God (their tongue shall consume away in their mouth).