Which Millennium is better? Amil's or Premil's proposed millennium?

[grafted branch]

Isn't that something you would want to find and bring up in the discussion? I've made it clear the Lord is ultimately making sure the enemy does exactly as He wants of them to fulfill prophecy.

Ok, I’ll bring up a solution that makes sense …

In Zechariah 14:2 the word “nations” <1471> is the Hebrew word goy. Here is what Biblehub says …



Usage: The Hebrew word "goy" primarily refers to a nation or a group of people. In the Old Testament, it is often used to describe non-Israelite nations, commonly referred to as "Gentiles." However, it can also refer to the nation of Israel itself, emphasizing the collective identity of a people group. The term underscores the idea of a distinct community bound by common cultural, ethnic, or political ties.



The word “nations” can be referring to “nation of Israel” and perhaps when the Lord gathers it’s referring to the nation of Israel and when Satan or an evil spirt gathers it’s not to be interpreted as the nation of Israel but as Gentile nations.

In Revelation 11:8 the city where our Lord was crucified is at some point no longer referred to as Jerusalem but as a Gentile city or nation. It could very well be that the change in who gathers corresponds to the same time that Jerusalem changes into a Gentile name.

 

[Davidpt]

Ok, then by that same logic we can say that the Lord gathers at the end of the millennium also.

In order for that idea to be plausible we would need to see an instance where it can’t be said that the Lord gathers, else it seems to be somewhat random as to who gets the credit for gathering. Do you know of a verse that shows the nations being gathered where we can’t attribute it to the Lord?

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Per my translation there is this pronoun 'he' in verse 16. Who should we assume is being meant by this 'he'?

Why not God Almighty in verse 14? After all, it does involve His battle.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


According to Zechariah 14:3, God already fought in the day of battle in the past, and that Revelation 16:14 is involving another battle of that great day of God Almighty in the future. Why wouldn't Zechariah 14:2-3 be involving the same battle Revelation 16:14 is involving?

Obviously, Zechariah 14:2 can't be involving 70 AD since verse 3 would be contradicting what happened then. That verse says the LORD shall go forth, and fight against those nations, as in defend the occupants of Jerusalem, which would mean unbelieving Jews if 70 AD is meant. Except He never did any such thing at the time. He never defended unbelieving Jews living in Jerusalem in 70 AD. He had wrath against them instead.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You use so many red herrings to distract from the fact that Amill thinks this world is the pit, the same world/pit Jesus was born into. The pit is not the Earth and satan is not only bound by a chain (not a dog on a leash concept) but is also locked in that pit.

Who said that the bottomless pit is the Earth? You assume that I said this. WRONG!

Again, Satan is a spirit!

The bottomless pit represents the DOMINION Christ has over Satan! It is merely a spiritual picture of the victory Christ has secured since before the foundation of the world FOR HIS PEOPLE!

Mark 3:27
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

The strong man is Satan. His house is his kingdom that keep people under spiritual bondage. Christ bound him through His perfect sacrifice for our sins, so that the gospel could go forth to spoil Satan's kingdom in the world. In Revelation we see another picture of this same principle.

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The bottomless pit represents the dominion Christ has over Satan and his kingdom. Christ has the key which signifies AUTHORITY for the control of Satan, to spoil his kingdom. He does not have a literal key, nor is Satan held in literal chains, nor is he counting on the wall in in a literal bottomless pit. These are spiritual pictures provided to believers to let us know Chirst holds the victory over Satan.

Ephesians 4:8
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Christ secured the victory for us and is now withholding Satan so the Kingdom of Christ can be built. PERIOD!

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[grafted branch]

Per my translation there is this pronoun 'he' in verse 16. Who should we assume is being meant by this 'he'?

Why not God Almighty in verse 14? After all, it does involve His battle.

That pronoun could be referring to God except for the fact that verse 14 attributes the gathering to the evil spirits.

Obviously, Zechariah 14:2 can't be involving 70 AD since verse 3 would be contradicting what happened then. That verse says the LORD shall go forth, and fight against those nations, as in defend the occupants of Jerusalem, which would mean unbeliving Jews if 70 AD is meant. Except He never did any such thing at the time. He never defended unbelieving Jews living in Jerusalem in 70 AD. He had wrath against them instead.

The unbelieving Jews were in the physical city of Jerusalem, which changed to a Gentile name (Sodom and Egypt). The Lord “defended” New Jerusalem and its occupants by destroying the unbelieving Jews in 70AD.

 

[Davidpt]

The unbelieving Jews were in the physical city of Jerusalem, which changed to a Gentile name (Sodom and Egypt). The Lord “defended” New Jerusalem and its occupants by destroying the unbelieving Jews in 70AD.

You lost me here. What nations did He gather together and then fight against at the time? Where can I read about this in the Bible or in any ancient history records?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle ; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations , as when he fought in the day of battle.


What nations if the first century is meant?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Can you explain the following if a real place is not meant by the pit?

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

This verse uses the very same Greek word that the book of Revelation uses for the pit, abussos.

What is it about the deep that they were afraid of and dreaded being cast into if it was not a literal place? They didn't seem to fear being cast into the nearby lake, but feared being cast into the deep. There has to be a logical reason why. That logical reason being that the deep was a literal place, would be my guess. Do some of you seriously think that spirits, demons, etc, can't be imprisoned? Have you ever ventured into the realm they exist in to know for a fact they can't be imprisoned in that realm?

Again...Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain of Iron, or locked in a pit with a literal brass Key. Satan is a spirit being which cannot be bound by literal earthly devices. The words here of keys and chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us. Once we understand this, half the battle of understanding His Word is won. The key here symbolizes that the Messenger has the right and authority to bind and loose. This messenger come down from Heaven holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan". That would also include ability and authority to loose Satan from that restraint. Don't forget about when Christ gave the key to the church that bound or loosen on Earth (as in heaven) as long as she is faithful to her great commission. Now the chain symbolizes the power (force or energy required to do the holding) to bind. It is a "Great" Chain because Satan is a spiritual and strong adversary upon whom only a great or special binding from God will restrain. The bottomless pit is symbolism for a boundless void (or Abyss) of nothingness. Satan (a spirit being) is held in idleness, that his ability to deceive the gentiles whom God is now also drawing by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, is stopped. For example, Satan CANNOT prevent this while God's church is being built or as long as the church kept him bound until her ministry is finished. Once church no longer do the great commission and experience apostasy in the end time, she helps Satan being loosened and God uses him against her for her unfaithfulness.

Symbolism:

Satan = A strong spirit that kept people under spiritual bondage
Key = Authority, Right, Ability
Chain = Power, means to restrain
Bottomless Pit = Boundless Void, an Abyss without form, to make Satan idleness for the sake of the Elect during the building of the Church

Selah!

 

[Marty fox]

Let's do some comparing of both. If you think of something else to add, be sure to mention it and I will add it to the OP unless it causes the OP to increase in size to the point it makes it too lengthy to add it to it. The OP is already somewhat lengthy to begin with. Or if you see something that doesn't fit your proposed Millennium, be sure to mention it and I will remove it from the OP if you convincingly argue why it doesn't.

Amil's proposed Millennium first.

People can be saved throughout their proposed Millennium.

People are still being deceived throughout their proposed Millennium. Billions and billions of people, the fact not everyone manages to get saved during their proposed Millennium.

Righteousness is not dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour(1 Peter 5:8), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can fill one's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost(Acts 5:3), during their proposed Millennium

satan can take advantage of some since some can be ignorant of his devices(2 Corinthians 2:11), during their proposed Millennium.

satan is transformed into an angel of light(2 Corinthians 11:14), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can hinder someone(1 Thessalonians 2:18), during their proposed Millennium.

That's enough for now. Next Premil's proposed Millennium.

Not one single person on the entire planet is still being deceived during their proposed Millennium. And the reasons why are obvious. There is no one to deceive them during the Millennium. Christ and His bodily immortal saints are ruling and governing the entire planet. satan is the pit, the beast and false prophet are in the LOF.

Righteousness is dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are no more crooked courts, no more crooked judges, no more crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, is not walking about, seeking whom he may devour, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't fill anyone's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't take advantage of anyone since no one can be ignorant of his devices, during their proposed Millennium, the fact satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan is not transformed into an angel of light, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't hinder anyone, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

Thus far, based on the above, which Millennium seems to be the better one? The only thing I can see being better about Amil's proposed Millennium is that people can be saved during it. Is that alone enough to make their Millennium the better one? Maybe, maybe not.

We have to factor in that Not once saved always saved, that this is Biblical, regardless that some deny it. How many might fall away over all? Millions, billions perhaps? If so, their proposed Millennium didn't manage to keep everyone still saved in the end, obviously. If Amil views Premil's proposed Millennium as a failure based on satan's little season that follows, why don't they view their proposed Millennium equally as a failure? Could the real reason be that most of them likely deny that NOSAS is Biblical? Thus no failure whatsoever since no one saved ever loses their salvation, right? Only if NOSAS is not Biblical, though. Except it is Biblical, 100% Biblical.

Who said that the bottomless pit is the Earth? You assume that I said this. WRONG!

Again, Satan is a spirit!

The bottomless pit represents the DOMINION Christ has over Satan! It is merely a spiritual picture of the victory Christ has secured since before the foundation of the world FOR HIS PEOPLE!

Mark 3:27
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

The strong man is Satan. His house is his kingdom that keep people under spiritual bondage. Christ bound him through His perfect sacrifice for our sins, so that the gospel could go forth to spoil Satan's kingdom in the world. In Revelation we see another picture of this same principle.

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The bottomless pit represents the dominion Christ has over Satan and his kingdom. Christ has the key which signifies AUTHORITY for the control of Satan, to spoil his kingdom. He does not have a literal key, nor is Satan held in literal chains, nor is he counting on the wall in in a literal bottomless pit. These are spiritual pictures provided to believers to let us know Chirst holds the victory over Satan.

Ephesians 4:8
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Christ secured the victory for us and is now withholding Satan so the Kingdom of Christ can be built. PERIOD!

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Of course the bottomless pit is symbolic as a bottomless pit is impossible a pit has to have a bottom.

 

[Marty fox]

Let's do some comparing of both. If you think of something else to add, be sure to mention it and I will add it to the OP unless it causes the OP to increase in size to the point it makes it too lengthy to add it to it. The OP is already somewhat lengthy to begin with. Or if you see something that doesn't fit your proposed Millennium, be sure to mention it and I will remove it from the OP if you convincingly argue why it doesn't.

Amil's proposed Millennium first.

People can be saved throughout their proposed Millennium.

People are still being deceived throughout their proposed Millennium. Billions and billions of people, the fact not everyone manages to get saved during their proposed Millennium.

Righteousness is not dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour(1 Peter 5:8), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can fill one's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost(Acts 5:3), during their proposed Millennium

satan can take advantage of some since some can be ignorant of his devices(2 Corinthians 2:11), during their proposed Millennium.

satan is transformed into an angel of light(2 Corinthians 11:14), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can hinder someone(1 Thessalonians 2:18), during their proposed Millennium.

That's enough for now. Next Premil's proposed Millennium.

Not one single person on the entire planet is still being deceived during their proposed Millennium. And the reasons why are obvious. There is no one to deceive them during the Millennium. Christ and His bodily immortal saints are ruling and governing the entire planet. satan is the pit, the beast and false prophet are in the LOF.

Righteousness is dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are no more crooked courts, no more crooked judges, no more crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, is not walking about, seeking whom he may devour, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't fill anyone's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't take advantage of anyone since no one can be ignorant of his devices, during their proposed Millennium, the fact satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan is not transformed into an angel of light, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't hinder anyone, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

Thus far, based on the above, which Millennium seems to be the better one? The only thing I can see being better about Amil's proposed Millennium is that people can be saved during it. Is that alone enough to make their Millennium the better one? Maybe, maybe not.

We have to factor in that Not once saved always saved, that this is Biblical, regardless that some deny it. How many might fall away over all? Millions, billions perhaps? If so, their proposed Millennium didn't manage to keep everyone still saved in the end, obviously. If Amil views Premil's proposed Millennium as a failure based on satan's little season that follows, why don't they view their proposed Millennium equally as a failure? Could the real reason be that most of them likely deny that NOSAS is Biblical? Thus no failure whatsoever since no one saved ever loses their salvation, right? Only if NOSAS is not Biblical, though. Except it is Biblical, 100% Biblical.

Gods millennium is better.

Until you figure out what the great chain is you will never understand the truth of the millennium.

 

[grafted branch]

What nations if the first century is meant?

The nation of Israel. The scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses’ seat and shut up the kingdom of heaven. The heavenly Jerusalem is in the kingdom of heaven and they fought against it.



Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


Zechariah 14:2 has the statement “and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” The word “residue” is remnant. The remnant were not cut off from New Jerusalem, they believed Jesus was the Messiah. The others went into captivity under the Law. Their houses were rifled and women ravished is showing they are in bondage, similar to Babylon being in bondage in Isaiah 13:16.

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Davidpt]

Until you figure out what the great chain is you will never understand the truth of the millennium.

Do you mean that long chain that is long as the world is round or maybe even longer? If satan can walk about and devour someone in the USA and also walk about and devour someone in Japan, I would say that's a pretty long chain tied to that dog.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

After all, it's pretty silly to think that satan can only walk about in someone's backyard in the USA, for example, but can't also walk about in someone's backyard in Japan, seeking whom he may devour. Which already doesn't make sense, since he can walk around in more than just someone's backyard.

The point is, 1 Peter 5:8 proves that satan is not bound since he is free to roam any place on this planet he desires to roam and then devour someone. He is not like a dog tied to a chain in someone's backyard, where as long as you stay away from that back yard the dog can't reach and attack you. satan is not limited in that manner if he can walk about and devour someone in the USA and can also do the same to someone in Japan, or Russia, or China, or any place on the planet.

 

[Marty fox]

Do you mean that long chain that is long as the world is round or maybe even longer? If satan can walk about and devour someone in the USA and also walk about and devour someone in Japan, I would say that's a pretty long chain tied to that dog.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

After all, it's pretty silly to think that satan can only walk about in someone's backyard in the USA, for example, but can't also walk about in someone's backyard in Japan, seeking whom he may devour. Which already doesn't make sense, since he can walk around in more than just someone's backyard.

The point is, 1 Peter 5:8 proves that satan is not bound since he is free to roam any place on this planet he desires to roam and then devour someone. He is not like a dog tied to a chain in someone's backyard, where as long as you stay away from that back yard the dog can't reach and attack you. satan is not limited in that manner if he can walk about and devour someone in the USA and can also do the same to someone in Japan, or Russia, or China, or any place on the planet.

As I said until you figure out what the great chain is you will never understand the truth of the millennium.

I didn't say how long the chain is.

 

[WPM]

And if the pit is the entire world, what is it supposed to mean when satan is no longer in the pit? That he is no longer in the world? But if he still in the world the logic per this scenario would have to be that he is still bound in the pit, right? Per Amil logic I guess we are all bound in this pit with satan until we die or that we are able to leave this planet entirely and live on another planet instead?

You have been told countless times but refuse to receive the truth on this. Twisting what Amils believe has been your forte in forums for years. That is why no Amil takes you serious.

Amils simply challenge what Premillennialism promotes. It sinks itself. It is non-corroborative.

 

[WPM]

And if the pit is the entire world, what is it supposed to mean when satan is no longer in the pit? That he is no longer in the world? But if he still in the world the logic per this scenario would have to be that he is still bound in the pit, right? Per Amil logic I guess we are all bound in this pit with satan until we die or that we are able to leave this planet entirely and live on another planet instead?

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[Davidpt]

Again...Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain of Iron, or locked in a pit with a literal brass Key. Satan is a spirit being which cannot be bound by literal earthly devices. The words here of keys and chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us. Once we understand this, half the battle of understanding His Word is won. The key here symbolizes that the Messenger has the right and authority to bind and loose. This messenger come down from Heaven holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan". That would also include ability and authority to loose Satan from that restraint. Don't forget about when Christ gave the key to the church that bound or loosen on Earth (as in heaven) as long as she is faithful to her great commission. Now the chain symbolizes the power (force or energy required to do the holding) to bind. It is a "Great" Chain because Satan is a spiritual and strong adversary upon whom only a great or special binding from God will restrain. The bottomless pit is symbolism for a boundless void (or Abyss) of nothingness. Satan (a spirit being) is held in idleness, that his ability to deceive the gentiles whom God is now also drawing by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, is stopped. For example, Satan CANNOT prevent this while God's church is being built or as long as the church kept him bound until her ministry is finished. Once church no longer do the great commission and experience apostasy in the end time, she helps Satan being loosened and God uses him against her for her unfaithfulness.

Symbolism:

Satan = A strong spirit that kept people under spiritual bondage
Key = Authority, Right, Ability
Chain = Power, means to restrain
Bottomless Pit = Boundless Void, an Abyss without form, to make Satan idleness for the sake of the Elect during the building of the Church

Selah!

Consider the following. It is raining cats and dogs outside. Even though the cats and dogs part is obviously not literal, the raining outside is obviously literal. You seem to think if something isn't literal nothing is literal. If that was true why is the raining outside literal while the cats and dogs part isn't literal?

This time I will use a Bible example.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Obviously, the sword of him, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, is not literal nor is the horse He is sitting upon is literal. Does that then mean the one sitting upon the horse is not literal either?

2 examples thus far, and in both examples it involves things that are not literal and involves things that are literal. Yet, you would have us believe, that just because the chain and key might not be literal, neither is the pit literal, nor is the thousand years he is bound, is literal? I guess the angel that binds him is not literal either, right?

The point I see Revelation 20:1-3 making, is this. When satan is cast into this literal pit, his binding will be so secure and sure, that it will be as if he is as helpless as someone would be in the real world if they were bound with a chain, cast into a dungeon, then the dungeon locked up on top of that. Meaning, even if one manages to escape the chain somehow, they still couldn't escape the dungeon because it is locked up. In the real world, no one in that situation could possibly be having contact with the outside world at the time. They certainly wouldn't be freely roaming the earth if they are locked away in a pit instead.

What is the point of using real world imagery in the Bible if our interpretations are making nonsense of the real world imagery used? In the real world, not one person would believe, that if someone is bound with a chain locked up in a pit, that this same one is also freely walking about the earth at the same time. That contradicts reality, not agrees with reality. And besides, only God, and certainly not satan as well, can literally be in more than one place at the same time. Amil's interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 has satan having the same abilities as God, that satan too can be in more than one place at the same time since Amils have satan freely roaming the earth though he is depicted chained and locked up in a pit. That equals being in multiple places at the same time.

 

[WPM]

Consider the following. It is raining cats and dogs outside. Even though the cats and dogs part is obviously not literal, the raining outside is obviously literal. You seem to think if something isn't literal nothing is literal. If that was true why is the raining outside literal while the cats and dogs part isn't literal?

This time I will use a Bible example.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Obviously, the sword of him, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, is not literal nor is the horse He is sitting upon is literal. Does that then mean the one sitting upon the horse is not literal either?

2 examples thus far, and in both examples it involves things that are not literal and involves things that are literal. Yet, you would have us believe, that just because the chain and key might not be literal, neither is the pit literal, nor is the thousand years he is bound, is literal? I guess the angel that binds him is not literal either, right?

The point I see Revelation 20:1-3 making, is this. When satan is cast into this literal pit, his binding will be so secure and sure, that it will be as if he is as helpless as someone would be in the real world if they were bound with a chain, cast into a dungeon, then the dungeon locked up on top of that. Meaning, even if one manages to escape the chain somehow, they still couldn't escape the dungeon because it is locked up. In the real world, no one in that situation could possibly be having contact with the outside world at the time. They certainly wouldn't be freely roaming the earth if they are locked away in a pit instead.

What is the point of using real world imagery in the Bible if our interpretations are making nonsense of the real world imagery used? In the real world, not one person would believe, that if someone is bound with a chain locked up in a pit, that this same one is also freely walking about the earth at the same time. That contradicts reality, not agrees with reality. And besides, only God, and certainly not satan as well, can literally be in more than one place at the same time. Amil's interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 has satan having the same abilities as God, that satan too can be in more than one place at the same time since Amils have satan freely roaming the earth though he is depicted chained and locked up in a pit. That equals being in multiple places at the same time.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The horse(s) coming represents the strength of the battle. It is not actual horses. The sword represents the Word of God. It's not an actual sword. The fowls represent his messengers (Elect who comes with Christ), it is not actual birds.

Selah!

Obviously, the sword of him, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, is not literal nor is the horse He is sitting upon is literal. Does that then mean the one sitting upon the horse is not literal either?

The "his," "him" refers to Jesus Christ.

Yet, you would have us believe, that just because the chain and key might not be literal

Right.

, neither is the pit literal,

Right

nor is the thousand years he is bound, is literal?

Right.

I guess the angel that binds him is not literal either, right?

The word angel here is the Greek word [aggelos] meaning messenger, and is the "exact" same word translated messenger throughout New Testament scripture. This Messenger who came down from heaven with the key and great Chain to bind Satan is God's anointed Messenger Jesus. He is Messenger of the Covenant of God who comes down from heaven with the power to bind Satan and by His death give that Covenant strength (Philippians 2:6-8).

The point I see Revelation 20:1-3 making, is this. When satan is cast into this literal pit, his binding will be so secure and sure, that it will be as if he is as helpless as someone would be in the real world if they were bound with a chain, cast into a dungeon, then the dungeon locked up on top of that.

False. First, Satan is a spirit. Not a created being as many thought! And no its not a literal pit.

Meaning, even if one manages to escape the chain somehow, they still couldn't escape the dungeon because it is locked up. In the real world, no one in that situation could possibly be having contact with the outside world at the time. They certainly wouldn't be freely roaming the earth if they are locked away in a pit instead.

Sigh...

Satan, as a spirit, was restrained for the sake of the elect while he was still roaming freely on Earth through ungenerated people! Do you understand that before being born again, Satan was the spirit of disobedience within you? Just as Peter had his own spirit of disobedience called "Satan" which was why Christ rebuked him because his will does not align with His, Matthew 16:22 and Mark 8:33. So because of the Cross, Christ has restrained YOUR SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE so that you could hear and receive the message of salvation. God has held back the spirit of disobedience in the elect so that they can receive the Spirit of Christ. It is important to note that Satan is not a created being or entity; rather, he represents the spirit of disobedience within mankind since Eve and Adam, that was once within you.

 

[Marty fox]

The horse(s) coming represents the strength of the battle. It is not actual horses. The sword represents the Word of God. It's not an actual sword. The fowls represent his messengers (Elect who comes with Christ), it is not actual birds.

Selah!


The "his," "him" refers to Jesus Christ.



Right.



Right



Right.



The word angel here is the Greek word [aggelos] meaning messenger, and is the "exact" same word translated messenger throughout New Testament scripture. This Messenger who came down from heaven with the key and great Chain to bind Satan is God's anointed Messenger Jesus. He is Messenger of the Covenant of God who comes down from heaven with the power to bind Satan and by His death give that Covenant strength (Philippians 2:6-8).



False. First, Satan is a spirit. Not a created being as many thought! And no its not a literal pit.


Sigh...

Satan, as a spirit, was restrained for the sake of the elect while he was still roaming freely on Earth through ungenerated people! Do you understand that before being born again, Satan was the spirit of disobedience within you? Just as Peter had his own spirit of disobedience called "Satan" which was why Christ rebuked him because his will does not align with His, Matthew 16:22 and Mark 8:33. So because of the Cross, Christ has restrained YOUR SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE so that you could hear and receive the message of salvation. God has held back the spirit of disobedience in the elect so that they can receive the Spirit of Christ. It is important to note that Satan is not a created being or entity; rather, he represents the spirit of disobedience within mankind since Eve and Adam, that was once within you.

Great post

 

[Davidpt]

Great post

Hmmmm...You agree satan is not a created being? After all, you found his post to be great and he did say in that post satan is not a created being, did he not? Which either means God didn't create satan after all, that maybe satan has always existed the same way God has always existed? Or it could maybe mean he doesn't believe satan even exists, period? Who knows what he means? I just find it disturbing that anyone that claims satan wasn't a created being, that someone else would find that to be a great post. This has zero to do with Premil vs Amil. This goes much deeper than that if someone is insisting satan wasn't a created being, and that others are finding posts like that to be great posts.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hmmmm...You agree satan is not a created being? After all, you found his post to be great and he did say in that post satan is not a created being, did he not? Which either means God didn't create satan after all, that maybe satan has always existed the same way God has always existed?

I knew this may have shocked many people like you. Because many of you (like myself in the past) believed that God created Satan as "Lucifer" as the son of the morning, per misinterpretation and speculation of Ezekiel 28.
There was no spirit of disobedience before Adam and Eve sinned. To have a disobedient spirit one has to violate God's law. Before Adam and Eve sinned, there was no violation of God's law. God tells us all his creation, including Adam and Eve, were perfect before they sinned by violating God's law. That was the introduction of the spirit of disobedience. Once Eve and Adam disobeyed, they had a spirit in the flesh that plunged man into bondage to that sin. And mankind remains in that bondage until Christ made atonement overcoming that spirit in us. Where the word of God resides in us, there is no spirit of disobedience.

1Jo 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We have overcome that spirit of wickedness. Satan is not an infinite being like God is, so how does he indwell all the unbelievers in the world at the same time? It is because he is NOT a being, he is a spirit, the spirit to disobey. It is this spirit that was defeated and bound by Christ.

Eph 2:2
(2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It's the lust of our flesh that creates the spirit to disobey. The adversary of God is our flesh that wars with him. That is the spirit that caused Adam and Eve to disobey and fall. In Adam we are ruled by the flesh, in Christ by the spirit by being born again!

This has zero to do with Premil vs Amil. This goes much deeper than that if someone is insisting satan wasn't a created being, and that others are finding posts like that to be great posts.

Wrong. It is essential to first understand Lucifer/Satan, as this directly relates to his binding and loosening in Revelation 20. Because of the Cross, the spirit of Christ was able to restrain the spirit of disobedience within the Elect whom He intended to seal (Revelation 7:1-4). This is how Satan has been bound (or restrained) for the sake of the Elect. That allows them (though not everyone in the world) to be saved through the testimony of the church, represented by the Two Witnesses. That is the purpose of the millennial kingdom and it has been since Pentecost!

 

[TribulationSigns]

I also like to add if anyone wanted to know more about the Cherub in Ezekiel 28 that many people thought was Satan but it was not!

Isaiah 55:8-9

• "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

God is a Spirit being, He doesn't think like the world, nor define images as Webster's dictionary or modern mythology does. These images are not literal pictures of God, they are spiritual pictures, shadows, tokens pointing to some aspect of God that will ultimately bring Him glory. The very fact that the Bible is silent on God's actual appearance, giving absolutely no physical description at any time, clearly demonstrates the seriousness of God's divine care in making sure conscientious Christians hold to the second commandment.
In closing, I would be remiss in this study if I did not also touch on a chapter concerning, "what are Cherubim," that has been of great controversy. It is the passage where theologians originally got the whole idea of Cherubim being angels in the first place. The source of confusion is the mention of the Cherub in Ezekiel 28:14. The passage in question quite clearly declares that the person it is speaking about as the covering Cherub is the king of Tyrus, not an angel. Nevertheless, certainly we can understand their logic, if not their entrenchment. They "assume" that because the reference here says the king was in the Garden of Eden, it has to refer to Satan as a fallen angel. And from this they surmise that God is using the king as a type of Satan. However, without Biblical warrant, we cannot make such a leap of faith in interpretation. The rule of thumb applies that "assumption is the mother of error." He was called the anointed cherub because he was representative man, created in the likeness of God in Adam, and has fallen to sin and lost all semblance of the image of God. Clearly, the King of Tyrus waws not in the Garden of Eden, nor perfect in beauty as Adam was, but he is representative of mankind and his degradation.

Ezekiel 28:12-16

• "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
• Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
• Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
• By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

At first glance it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel. However, rather than "reading into this text" an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God to be righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin and thus come under judgment. So rather than represent a fallen angel, this represents FALLEN MAN. It illustrates original man in Adam, created good (Genesis 1:26-27) in the image/likeness of God before the fall. Man, as he was created without sin, but who has fallen in Adam, losing the glory of the likeness of God he was created with. Thus because of his fall and our inheritance of his spirit of bondage to disobedience, we are all subject to death. But thanks to our God, that full glory of God's image can be restored in Christ Jesus. Thus He is often referred to as the second Adam.

1st Corinthians 15:20-22

• "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
• For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Now we can see the spiritual darkness begin to clear as we can see more of the picture. We were 'all' created in the image of God in Adam. The sin of Adam separated man from that image of God. And in the process, it separated all of us in generations to follow from that likeness. It was man who was perfect in the mountain (Kingdom) of God. But sin was found in us, and we all died in Adam (1st Corinthians 15:20-22) and are come under judgment as surely as King Tyrus had. And except we are restored to the image of God that 'man' had in the garden, we remain fallen and subject to the wrath of God. The king of Tyrus is man directly from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. In point of fact, the very name "Tyrus" means a stone. So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here. It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But Angels do not qualify. We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

Genesis 3:22

• "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

It is man who was corrupted because of knowledge, not angels. He sought to be as God by his disobedience in eating of the tree of knowledge, and it was this that caused his fall in the day he transgressed. Satan in the Garden of Eden didn't have every precious stone his covering, but Adam was made glorious, precious in the sight of the Lord. Satan was not set the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the holy mountain of God, but scripture says Adam (man) was created in the very image of God so that this definition is consistent. In point of fact, everything in the Garden of Eden, including the serpent, was 'under dominion of Adam,' (Genesis 1:26-28;3:1) as He was perfect. Adam was the very likeness or image of God. ..as a Cherub.