Which Millennium is better? Amil's or Premil's proposed millennium?

[Davidpt]

In Acts 15:28-29 a different burden was placed on the Gentiles than was placed on the Jews. Today nobody is asked if they are Jew or Gentile when they join a church.

During the first century a temporary situation occurred where a person could both hold to the old covenant Law and also believe that Jesus was the Messiah. There were some of these people that held both to the Law and believed in Jesus, that at some point kept the Law and rejected Jesus as the Messiah (1John 2:19, Hebrews 6:4-6, John 15:6).

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I don't get why you deny NOSAS when a passage like this one is teaching exactly that?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I don't get why you dispute NOSAS is Biblical when a passage like this one is teaching exactly that? How can one abide in Him to begin with unless they are believers first? And if they don't continue to abide in Him, how can that not equal that they lose possession of their expected eternal salvation? Look what their beginning is, it obviously begins with them abiding in Him initially because one can't 'not abide' in Him eventually unless they initially abide in Him first. Don't you think? Then look what their end is if they fail to continue to abide in Him---and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Sounds like to me they will get cast into the LOF if they don't continue to abide in Him, thus if they fall away, thus NOSAS.

Maybe it's just me, but I have never heard of anyone abiding in Him unless they are believers first. Being a believer equals being saved does it not?

 

[ewq1938]

Since you don’t think anyone has a version of the millennium that is full of just and righteous people, then your argument is really against the OP.

Nope. The sinners/unsaved are there, but are ruled by a rod of iron so they cannot and will not rebel etc. They aren't righteous anymore than satan is righteous, but both are under complete control.

Do you have a millennium that is similar to the Amil millennium where unbelievers are everywhere among us, sometimes even ruling entire cities, states, and countries?

No. The unsaved are ruled over strictly in the Mill. They are not in charge of anything, especially not sinful nations like in the world today and evil practices and murdering Christians.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL. What a lame analogy.

And they always leave out the whole locked in the pit part and focus only on the chain. They also rarely admit they believe the pit is the whole world, that Jesus and the saints all are born into the pit with satan which makes no sense.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. What a lame analogy. But you didn't come up with it though, therefore, you shouldn't take it personally. IOW, this is not the first time I have heard an Amil use that same exact analogy. Must be one long chain satan is bound with if he can devour someone in the USA and also devour someone in China, for instance.

If a dog was tied to a chain in it's yard in Dallas, Tx, it certainly wouldn't be able to bite anyone in China, or even anyone outside the yard it is tied in.

That dog on a chain analogy doesn't cut it because satan can roam the entire planet, a dog tied to a chain in it's yard can't roam the entire planet but can only roam the yard it is tied up in.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

You don't get it. You are indeed misunderstood on the purpose for Satan being bound or restrained. You do not understand the mystery of iniquity.
Satan is a SPIRIT, the spirit that works within the unsaved and opposes Christ in the Church. Christ had bound the spirit Satan by His Cross that it was RESTRAINED in its POWER so that Christ's church could be built from the Gentiles/Nations. In other words, though Satan was going forth as a roaring lion deceiving SOME, he could NOT come in the FULLNESS of his spiritual power to deceive the nations (Revelation 20) "UNTIL" after the period God says the nations were not to be deceived (Revelation 20:3) as the church was built in this millennial or 1,000 year reign of Christ.

AFTER the millennial reign of the nations being set free from spiritual bondage, then the spirit of Satan will be loosed from its chains to FREELEY go forth to deceive the nations again... anyone WHO HAVE NOT YET SEALED or SAVED by CHRIST, and gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

The army of the ministers of Satan, aka, Gog and Magog, coming "appearing LIKE ministers of Christ," in the camps of the Saints (Churches). They were the Antichrists or false Christs of Paul's day, as they are of our day. The difference is, in the latter days, these are those that will multiply greatly or abound, and this will be near the time of Christ's return. Then will the Antichrist be revealed in all his power to gather together the Gentiles against the camp of the saints. Those men with the spirit of the pseudo Christ, who worship a substitute Christ in the spirit of disobedience so that the sinful man is then ruling in the Holy Temple (God's house) in place of God.

Satan will not be chained in Texas or China. You are thinking carnal. Satan was bound "for the sake of the Elect" all over the world wherever the Gospel was preached. This means that Satan cannot prevent people in spiritual bondage in the first place from being freed by Christ through hearing the Gospel. This process of salvation has been ongoing since Pentecost as the Church expands into the world.

Only the Elect that God has chosen will be saved. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. Many unsaved individuals have come into God's congregation as corporate body of believers to help build the Church, similar to how many unbelievers assisted in constructing the ark alongside Noah and his family of eight.

After the Church is completed, with all the Elect being secured (you can see this in Revelation 7:1-4), God will loosen Satan, along with his army of false prophets and false Christs, into churches all over the world. Their purpose will be to deceive those who have not been sealed by God since the rest of the world is already in Satan's camp. This is how Satan can mislead those within the Church with false doctrine, which could almost deceive even the Elect, if it is possible.

Because some professing Christians do not love the truth and begin to fall away from God, He will call His chosen Elect to come out of Babylon to avoid being deceived alongside these professing Christians as a judgment from God.

It is happening right now. Haven't you noticed or are you spiritually blind thinking there should be a "world peace" on Earth, where Satan be in a secured place far far away in the galaxy (Star Wars theme) Really?! Not gonna happen.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And they always leave out the whole locked in the pit part and focus only on the chain. They also rarely admit they believe the pit is the whole world, that Jesus and the saints all are born into the pit with satan which makes no sense.

You do not even know what is the bottomless pit is, do you? Think it is a literal place? How did it hold a SPIRIT? Humm? With what? A literal chain and key? It calls for spiritual discernment, sir!

 

[Davidpt]

Tell the truth.

What do you mean tell the truth? How am I failing to do that? Take for instance, any of the initial 12 disciples besides Judas. Obviously, OSAS applies to these disciples, NOSAS doesn't. Obviously, NOSAS applies to Judas, OSAS doesn't. Therefore, both positions are Biblical, and not this instead--only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS is not Biblical. It's that simple. Have you not figured out by now that Judas is a 'type' for the man of sin, the son of perdition?

 

[Davidpt]

And they always leave out the whole locked in the pit part and focus only on the chain. They also rarely admit they believe the pit is the whole world, that Jesus and the saints all are born into the pit with satan which makes no sense.

And if the pit is the entire world, what is it supposed to mean when satan is no longer in the pit? That he is no longer in the world? But if he still in the world the logic per this scenario would have to be that he is still bound in the pit, right? Per Amil logic I guess we are all bound in this pit with satan until we die or that we are able to leave this planet entirely and live on another planet instead?

 

[Truth7t7]

Though, I think I get your point, but if one factors in Zechariah 14, everyone would already know who these mortals remaining are. They are the ones left of the nations which came against Jerusalem, but instead of the plague getting them too, they are spared to live another day. I tend to take it to maybe mean, though they were of the nations that come against Jerusalem, they didn't actually participate in it. Yet, they weren't eternally saved either, otherwise they would be immortal at the last trump. Except no one immortal at the last trump is going to be threatened with punishments if they fail to comply(Zechariah 14:17-19).

Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom​

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Though, I think I get your point, but if one factors in Zechariah 14, everyone would already know who these mortals remaining are. They are the ones left of the nations which came against Jerusalem, but instead of the plague getting them too, they are spared to live another day. I tend to take it to maybe mean, though they were of the nations that come against Jerusalem, they didn't actually participate in it. Yet, they weren't eternally saved either, otherwise they would be immortal at the last trump. Except no one immortal at the last trump is going to be threatened with punishments if they fail to comply(Zechariah 14:17-19).

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't get why you dispute NOSAS is Biblical when a passage like this one is teaching exactly that? How can one abide in Him to begin with unless they are believers first? And if they don't continue to abide in Him, how can that not equal that they lose possession of their expected eternal salvation?

A Jew who believed in the old covenant and believed that it was a valid covenant was considered a believer prior to the cross.

A Jew who believed in the old covenant and believed that it was a valid covenant was not a believer after the cross unless they believed Jesus was Messiah.

After the cross the old covenant became invalid and the new covenant came into force. The verses you are using to justify NOSAS are the very verses that are explaining the transition from old covenant to new covenant. OSAS works with these verses when they are understood this way.

 

[Davidpt]

You do not even know what is the bottomless pit is, do you? Think it is a literal place? How did it hold a SPIRIT? Humm? With what? A literal chain and key? It calls for spiritual discernment, sir!

Can you explain the following if a real place is not meant by the pit?

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

This verse uses the very same Greek word that the book of Revelation uses for the pit, abussos.

What is it about the deep that they were afraid of and dreaded being cast into if it was not a literal place? They didn't seem to fear being cast into the nearby lake, but feared being cast into the deep. There has to be a logical reason why. That logical reason being that the deep was a literal place, would be my guess. Do some of you seriously think that spirits, demons, etc, can't be imprisoned? Have you ever ventured into the realm they exist in to know for a fact they can't be imprisoned in that realm?

 

[grafted branch]

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

In Zechariah 14:2 it says “I” will gather, meaning it’s the Lord that gathers the nations against Jerusalem to battle. In Revelation 16:13-14 it’s the unclean spirits out of the dragon, beast, and false prophet that gather, which corresponds to Revelation 19:19 where it’s the beast’s and kings of the earth armies that are gathered.

There are a few references where the Lord gathers, Joel 3:2 and Isaiah 13:4-6 are good examples, but I don’t see any place in Revelation where it specifically states the Lord gathers the nations.

If you have Zechariah 14 occurring just before a future millennium, then where in Revelation does the Lord gather the nations against Jerusalem?

 

[Davidpt]

If you have Zechariah 14 occurring just before a future millennium, then where in Revelation does the Lord gather the nations against Jerusalem?

You might be misunderstanding his post since he is Amil and is arguing against, not for, a future millennium? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here for all I know?

 

[grafted branch]

You might be misunderstanding his post since he is Amil and is arguing against, not for, a future millennium? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here for all I know?

Ok, thanks, I skimmed over where he said eternal kingdom thinking it was millennial kingdom.

Regardless I’m interested in if he see the Lord gathering the nations in Revelation.

 

[ewq1938]

You do not even know what is the bottomless pit is, do you? Think it is a literal place? How did it hold a SPIRIT? Humm? With what? A literal chain and key? It calls for spiritual discernment, sir!

You use so many red herrings to distract from the fact that Amill thinks this world is the pit, the same world/pit Jesus was born into. The pit is not the Earth and satan is not only bound by a chain (not a dog on a leash concept) but is also locked in that pit.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, thanks, I skimmed over where he said eternal kingdom thinking it was millennial kingdom.

Regardless I’m interested in if he see the Lord gathering the nations in Revelation.

I believe that happens via the 6th vial.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe that happens via the 6th vial.

In Revelation 16:13-14 it is the unclean spirits that gather to battle. How are you making the connection that it’s the Lord that is gathering here?

 

[ewq1938]

In Revelation 16:13-14 it is the unclean spirits that gather to battle. How are you making the connection that it’s the Lord that is gathering here?

The vial is from God, poured via an angel which makes the enemy gather where God wants them to gather.

 

[grafted branch]

The vial is from God, poured via an angel which makes the enemy gather where God wants them to gather.

Ok, then by that same logic we can say that the Lord gathers at the end of the millennium also.

In order for that idea to be plausible we would need to see an instance where it can’t be said that the Lord gathers, else it seems to be somewhat random as to who gets the credit for gathering. Do you know of a verse that shows the nations being gathered where we can’t attribute it to the Lord?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, then by that same logic we can say that the Lord gathers at the end of the millennium also.

Sure, he allows it and shows it to us through prophecy.

In order for that idea to be plausible we would need to see an instance where it can’t be said that the Lord gathers, else it seems to be somewhat random as to who gets the credit for gathering. Do you know of a verse that shows the nations being gathered where we can’t attribute it to the Lord?

Isn't that something you would want to find and bring up in the discussion? I've made it clear the Lord is ultimately making sure the enemy does exactly as He wants of them to fulfill prophecy.