Is you reference to Romans 8 something like the "Second Blessing" or such? I take it Paul wrote the entire epistle to the Romans at one sitting. You think Paul wrote his letter a piece at a time, at different time periods?
When are God's Elect Justified?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You keep forgetting the justify part. You have sanctification apart from justification there is no such thing you would still be dead in your in
What?
So you are sinless? Why can”t you achieve your own belief. You want people to follow you but you can not even hold up your own gospel
No.
It justified us and we are idiots as gods children born agai. Into the family of god
Yes. Anyone who
Follows you is following religion. Again you prove your gospel has no power. You have not even arrived yet .
Will you go to him now. Or continue to serve self?
Roman’s 8 is the end result of the 1st 7 chapters
Paul made a statement of fact there is no
More condemnation to those in Christ period.
Why do you teach we are still
Condemned?
I think we need to walk in the Spirit to fulfill Romans 8. If that takes a 2nd blessing then go for it. Seek the Lord for His power at the throne of grace. I, personally, received that baptism on the first go.
I don't know that affects the writing. But if you mean in one phase of his life...like over a day or a week or so...then yes.
Another reason for eternal justification of Gods elect, which is connected to His Suretyship, and that is the non imputation of sin.
God purposed not to punish sin in His Elect but in His Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8. His counsel to punish sin in His Son, who became sin for us, includes also His will to impute sin to Him. Uniformly, the Father’s purpose not to punish sin in His elect includes His will not to impute it to them, and is their justification from all sin in His sight 2 Cor 5:19 1
God purposed not to punish sin in His Elect but in His Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8. His counsel to punish sin in His Son, who became sin for us, includes also His will to impute sin to Him. Uniformly, the Father’s purpose not to punish sin in His elect includes His will not to impute it to them, and is their justification from all sin in His sight 2 Cor 5:19 1
Imputation is satisfactory for the justification of God’s elect. Again in connection with Christs Suretyship undertaking that commenced from everlasting, the sins of His people were charged or imputed to Him. When He came the first time, He came with sin imputed to Him versus when He comes the second time its without sin, meaning without sin imputed to Him Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The first time He appeared sin was imputed to Him because He came to be a sacrifice Heb 10:5-10
So with the sins of Gods elect already imputed to Christ even when He came into the world the first time as Surety, then they, by this imputation of sin to Christ, meant their Justification before God from them.
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The first time He appeared sin was imputed to Him because He came to be a sacrifice Heb 10:5-10
So with the sins of Gods elect already imputed to Christ even when He came into the world the first time as Surety, then they, by this imputation of sin to Christ, meant their Justification before God from them.
So are those for whom He died and risen again, Justified before God before they believe in Him ?
As it reads in Romans 4, this is implied, and also as it is certain, without any doubt, what God has ordained to occur.
However, to fulfill all righteousness, there is a process that had to be performed, or say walked out in, in our time.
Similar to when John said this here, and Jesus responded,
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and [b]He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
God has fore ordained, fore appointed we who believe as the children of God.
And it is also true that this is why we have believed, because were fore appointed to believe in Christ.
There is no uncertainty in our individual salvation.
We on our human side may not feel it, but if you read scripture, you will sense it inside your own selves, in your spirit that we are thus the children of God, in accordance with His will for us. He did all this for the sake of Christ, that Christ would have a family, we are of the family of God, by His mercy. Even though we deserved God's condemning justice for our sins, He chose to not impute to us our sin for the sake of His Son.
John 17, “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Any other way is folly, madness and deviltry as then God cannot be God who as He has said in many places determined all things according to the council of His own will.
Especially so as this is written down for the church of believers in Christ about our own salvation.
Romans 8:29
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
(YLT)
Romans 8:30
and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
NKJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
We still had to walk this out in our lives, in our own time. God gave to us a guarantee that we would. God not only gifted to you your belief in Christ, God created beforehand all the good works we would do in our lives on earth.
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
And it is also true that this is why we have believed, because were fore appointed to believe in Christ.
There is no uncertainty in our individual salvation.
We on our human side may not feel it, but if you read scripture, you will sense it inside your own selves, in your spirit that we are thus the children of God, in accordance with His will for us. He did all this for the sake of Christ, that Christ would have a family, we are of the family of God, by His mercy. Even though we deserved God's condemning justice for our sins, He chose to not impute to us our sin for the sake of His Son.
John 17, “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Any other way is folly, madness and deviltry as then God cannot be God who as He has said in many places determined all things according to the council of His own will.
Especially so as this is written down for the church of believers in Christ about our own salvation.
Romans 8:29
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
(YLT)
Romans 8:30
and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
NKJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
We still had to walk this out in our lives, in our own time. God gave to us a guarantee that we would. God not only gifted to you your belief in Christ, God created beforehand all the good works we would do in our lives on earth.
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJ21
For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
ASV
because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:
AMP
For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
AMPC
For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf.
BRG
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
CSB
For it has been granted to you on Christ’s behalf not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,
CEB
God has generously granted you the privilege, not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for Christ’s sake.
CJB
because for the Messiah’s sake it has been granted to you not only to trust in him but also to suffer on his behalf,
CEV
and he has blessed you. Not only do you have faith in Christ, but you suffer for him.
DARBY
because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also,
DLNT
Because to you was granted the thing for Christ’s sake— not only the believing in Him, but also the suffering for His sake,
DRA
For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
ERV
God has blessed you in ways that serve Christ. He allowed you to believe in Christ. But that is not all. He has also given you the honor of suffering for Christ. Both of these bring glory to Christ.
EASY
God is helping you to serve Christ well. That means that you believe in Christ. But it also means that you receive trouble and pain on his behalf. Both of those are gifts from God.
EHV
For it has been graciously granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,
For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
ASV
because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:
AMP
For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
AMPC
For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf.
BRG
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
CSB
For it has been granted to you on Christ’s behalf not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,
CEB
God has generously granted you the privilege, not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for Christ’s sake.
CJB
because for the Messiah’s sake it has been granted to you not only to trust in him but also to suffer on his behalf,
CEV
and he has blessed you. Not only do you have faith in Christ, but you suffer for him.
DARBY
because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also,
DLNT
Because to you was granted the thing for Christ’s sake— not only the believing in Him, but also the suffering for His sake,
DRA
For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
ERV
God has blessed you in ways that serve Christ. He allowed you to believe in Christ. But that is not all. He has also given you the honor of suffering for Christ. Both of these bring glory to Christ.
EASY
God is helping you to serve Christ well. That means that you believe in Christ. But it also means that you receive trouble and pain on his behalf. Both of those are gifts from God.
EHV
For it has been graciously granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,
Christ does not lose what God has given Him.
In Christ saying it is God's will that none of those given Him be lost except for the son of Hell to fulfill scripture, this was understood to be absolute, as in impossible to occur.
John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Phillipians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
From eternity God knew all His works, and your salvation is one of His works.
You should fear and tremble, that God has done all of this in your life, so seek then to please God in all that you do.
2 Peter 1
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither [e]barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth.
Acts 15
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus [b]Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’
18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
In Christ saying it is God's will that none of those given Him be lost except for the son of Hell to fulfill scripture, this was understood to be absolute, as in impossible to occur.
John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Phillipians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
From eternity God knew all His works, and your salvation is one of His works.
You should fear and tremble, that God has done all of this in your life, so seek then to please God in all that you do.
2 Peter 1
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither [e]barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth.
Acts 15
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus [b]Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’
18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
God works all things after the counsel of His will- Sovereignty
All things are in the control and hand of God, the unchangeable Creator, and not in the hand of His creatures. Therefore, we are comforted in knowing that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.”
christiandefense.org
God “works all things after the counsel of His will.” YHWH speaks of His absolute sovereignty in
Isaiah 46:8-11:
8 “Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. 9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.”
So are those for whom He died and risen again, Justified before God before they believe in Him ? Simple yes or no please
Very wrong and muddled thinking. God can only impute something that He sees as real. The justification of the elect is that they walk in the resurrection life of Christ...without sin.
Totally false. No sin was ever imputed to Christ...who knew NO SIN. So you are barking up the wrong tree.
You are misunderstanding the bible in a very gross way. Jesus was imputed with sins by the wicked...not God. God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God did NOT impute sin to Himself.
Again muddled. Bearing sin means you are the victim of sinners...not that you did anything wrong. And those who are without sin INTO salvation are those who LOOK FOR HIM.
Muddled.
Impossible. This doctrine makes the devil smile to be sure.
God isn't evil. He doesn't blame one person for what another has done. A son is not responsible for what his father commits. A father is not responsible for what his son commits. That's the law according to righteousness.
As for holiness, the law begins as a life for a life. This Jesus accomplished to win back His creation (all men) from the devil.
The second part of the law is "a life IN a life". For those who enter INTO Christ to walk as He walked (the elect)...there is a holiness fulfillment by a liberation from sin into a reconciliation with God...by a new and living way that fulfill God's commandments.
Good discussion..I guess that is as much as you can stoop to ...in conversation rather than judge.
That's how discussions begin. Of course I denied it...because you are not understanding the bible narrative. I could help you with it...or we could compare notes...and then we and maybe others could learn ...either to be more sure of what we believe, or else question those beliefs that are not biblically founded.
How do you know for sure that you're saved until the end of your life?
You have no way of knowing for sure that God picked you for salvation.
Because of this following in John Calvin's writings:
there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
How do you know for sure which of God's lists you're on?
You don't.
One of the first things I learned when I became Christian is that we don't go BY FEELINGS....
but by the Word of God.
And, are you reformed??
You shouldn't even mention the mercy of God.
In Calvinist teaching...
God has NO MERCY.
He doesn't even let you, yes you, know WHY you were saved and He certainly doesn't let ANYONE know HOW they could become saved.
Does that sound like a merciful God to you?
(not to the rest of humanity).
Foreknow is always in reference to HOW or to WHY
NEVER TO WHO.
God wishes that all men come to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
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