We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[teamventure]

Is satan a literal dragon and other names of infamy, or was he once "the anointed cherub that covereth" at God's throne, whose real identity is Lucifer? Ezk. 28:13-16.
By the way, who is "the angel of the LORD", having numerous names (such as Michael), but His true identity was being kept "secret"? Judges 13
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Satan being referred to as a dragon in scripture is obviously symbolic.
Michael being an archangel and not an imaginary figure is also obvious.
Actually, Satan and Michael are both literal beings so thank you for helping me prove my point.

 

[Earburner]

Satan being referred to as a dragon in scripture is obviously symbolic.
Michael being an archangel and not an imaginary figure is also obvious.
Actually, Satan and Michael are both literal beings so thank you for helping me prove my point.

You are welcome. I thank you also, because I agree. Lucifer being referred to as satan is obviously symbolic.
But Michael being an arch-angel, who is Jesus, is also obviously symbolic, if one would investigate a little deeper.

From my post #153:
Strong's #746: arche (pronounced ar-khay')
from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

Mat. 21
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead.

Rom. 16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Eph. 3
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col. 1
[26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

However, Jesus gives us a clue in how to locate Him within the OT scriptures.
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures [OT]; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And so I ask, who is "the angel of the LORD", and why would he not give his name, when he was asked?
Ans. His name was being kept a secret.
Judges 13
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Though many angels have given their names, when they aporoached us, "The angel of the LORD", who is mentioned 50 times in the OT, interacting with and standing for Israel, never did give His name.

As for the name of "Michael", Michael of himself also never gave out his name, though angels (Gabriel) and men spoke of him as "Michael".

So, Who is MIchael? He is "the angel of the LORD", and He is only revealed to each of us, who will receive Him, by the Father.
Mat. 16
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it [that secret] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Rom. 16:25

 

[Christian Gedge]

Marty you have the two witnesses described below as having bodies that die, lay in a Jerusalem street, a world watching while exchanging gifts celebrating their deaths, they are raised to heaven as their enemies watch?

How do you justify all that above, with claims the two witnesses represent the law and prophets symbolically?

Good point. Also, their resurrection and ascent to heaven reminds me of the general resurrection/rapture. As for their identity, I think of the ‘Mosaic’ witness representing the saints of the first covenant and the ‘Elijaic‘ witness being the saints of the new covenant. Just a thought.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good point. Also, their resurrection and ascent to heaven reminds me of the general resurrection/rapture. As for their identity, I think of the ‘Mosaic’ witness representing the saints of the first covenant and the ‘Elijaic‘ witness being the saints of the new covenant. Just a thought.

The typical interpretation in reformed eschatology, symbolic allegory of the old/new testaments with a different dress and hairdo

Don't forget the part in Revelation Chapter 11 of bodies dying, bodies laying in a street, a world watching in celebrating their deaths in exchanging gifts?

Christian you can't walk away from the chapter and pretend as if the items mentioned above don't exist as reformed eschatology does, just go with the reformed flow and call it good? "Wrong"

The items mentioned are future literal two witnesses, literal bodies that Die, laying in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration, exchanging literal gifts

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Christian Gedge]

When I go up in the Rev. 11 rapture I'm going to ask for a nice new hairdo.

 

[ewq1938]

When I go up in the Rev. 11 rapture I'm going to ask for a nice new hairdo.

You are going to be raptured with the two prophets? Looks to me they are the only ones mentioned.

 

[teamventure]

You are welcome. I thank you also, because Lucifer being referred to as satan is obviously symbolic also.
But Michael being an arch-angel, who is Jesus, is also obviously symbolic, if one would investigate a little deeper.

From my post #153:
Strong's #746: arche (pronounced ar-khay')
from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

Mat. 21
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead.

Rom. 16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Eph. 3
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col. 1
[26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

However, Jesus gives us a clue in how to locate Him within the OT scriptures.
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures [OT]; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And so I ask, who is "the angel of the LORD", and why would he not give his name, when he was asked?
Ans. His name was being kept a secret.
Judges 13
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Though many angels have given their names, when they aporoached us, "The angel of the LORD", who is mentioned 50 times in the OT, interacting with and standing for Israel, never did give His name.

As for the name of "Michael", Michael of himself also never gave out his name, though angels (Gabriel) and men spoke of him as "Michael".

So, Who is MIchael? He is only revealed to each of us, who will receive Him.
Mat. 16
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Rom. 16:25

So, getting around all of your hyperbole may I just ask,
Who is Michael
and who is Satan?

 

[face2face]

To rightly understand this OP, you need to start with the right interpretive model of the Apocalypse - God does not change, so just as Daniels prophecy is continuous historical so is the Revelation. Even if you didn't agree, logic has it, you would agree in principle.
F2F

 

[Truth7t7]

To rightly understand this OP, you need to start with the right interpretive model of the Apocalypse - God does not change, so just as Daniels prophecy is continuous historical so is the Revelation. Even if you didn't agree, logic has it, you would agree in principle.
F2F

Sounds like if one doesn't believe reformed historicism, they aren't rightfully understanding?

 

[face2face]

Sounds like if one doesn't believe reformed historicism, they aren't rightfully understanding?

You can put it like that if you so desire...the reality 7t7 is the correct interpretation of Daniel was known at the time of it being written, and the same goes for the Revelation, so how does reformed historicism fit if that period of history was not even in existence?

Are you a futurist? Most Christians are...but it doesn't take long to work out many have not delved deeply into the text. The prophecy of Daniel is key to opening the Revelation, without it, you are wasting your time.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Truth7t7

Take Revelation 1:13 cmp Daniel 10:16

Daniel saw in his vision "one like the similitude of the sons of men" after he had been raised from his figurative death. What
the prophet and the apostle saw was symbolic representations of the glorified body of Christ, of whom the Lord Jesus
is the head (Ephesians 4:13).

Revelation is consistently drawing on Daniel's prophecy and the more you look, the more you will find. Revelation is based on the continuous historical interpretation in the same way you would interpret Daniel.

God leaves clues - just need to follow them.

F2F

 

[Marty fox]

@Truth7t7

Take Revelation 1:13 cmp Daniel 10:16

Daniel saw in his vision "one like the similitude of the sons of men" after he had been raised from his figurative death. What
the prophet and the apostle saw was symbolic representations of the glorified body of Christ, of whom the Lord Jesus
is the head (Ephesians 4:13).

Revelation is consistently drawing on Daniel's prophecy and the more you look, the more you will find. Revelation is based on the continuous historical interpretation in the same way you would interpret Daniel.

God leaves clues - just need to follow them.

F2F

Your wisdom is very inspiring thanks

 

[Truth7t7]

You can put it like that if you so desire...the reality 7t7 is the correct interpretation of Daniel was known at the time of it being written, and the same goes for the Revelation, so how does reformed historicism fit if that period of history was not even in existence?

Are you a futurist? Most Christians are...but it doesn't take long to work out many have not delved deeply into the text. The prophecy of Daniel is key to opening the Revelation, without it, you are wasting your time.

F2F

Daniel and the Revelation are both future, I disagree with your claim they are fulfilled

Start posting selected verses from Daniel/Revelation that you claim are historically fulfilled, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation is based on the continuous historical interpretation in the same way you would interpret Daniel.

I Disagree that Daniel/Revelation are "Historical" as you claim, start posting these historical verses that are fulfilled, waiting?

My claim is Daniel 7:9-11 & Daniel 9:24-27 are "Future" unfulfilled

 

[face2face]

I Disagree that Daniel/Revelation are "Historical" as you claim, start posting these historical verses that are fulfilled, waiting?

My claim is Daniel 7:9-11 & Daniel 9:24-27 are "Future" unfulfilled

Interesting response. I get the feeling whatever you were shown you would disregard.

I'm intrigued you would choose these two sections of Daniel's prophecy which deal with a period of history which takes you up to, and includes Christ's second coming. So, you are partially right with your own claim, however something tells me you might not fully understand what “Continuous Historical” means.

Take your Daniel 9 reference.

Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Daniel 9:24

This is a little off topic in understanding that the Continuous Historical interpretation model is the correct one for understanding the Revelation.

Can you explain your understanding of how this prophecy is to be fulfilled?

Read Daniel 9:15-16 for context to the fuilfillment of the red text.

What do you think was the end of Israels trasngression?
When do you believe God put an end to sin?
And when did God atone for iniquity ?
In an ultimate sense when will God through Christ bring in everlasting righteousness and unseal the vision and the prophet, to anoint the most Holy Place?

I'm hoping your answers will show us in this one verse you have continuous historical events which leads you to a future event to fulfill this prophecy.

Ultimately, what is shown in this verse is precisely how Daniel & the Revelation must be interpreted.

Hence the different metals of the image in Daniel 2 are historical empires one succeeding the other...same goes for Daniel Chapter 7 though from God's perspective (ugly vicious beasts).

Likewise, the unfolding of History in Revelation 7 to the end (scattered throughout the Revelation are visions for each generation to hold onto, to keep their lamps alight).

Thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

Daniel and the Revelation are both future, I disagree with your claim they are fulfilled

Start posting selected verses from Daniel/Revelation that you claim are historically fulfilled, waiting?

Also, both prophecies have unfulfilled events, but this has nothing to do with interpreting the prophecies as continuous historic. What we are talking about are prophecies being fulfilled throughout history, extending from the past through the present to the future. This is how Daniel has been recorded and the Revelation also.

I hope that makes sense?

Hence my original comment about this OP - you cannot understand what the two witnesses are from the past without knowing those events; the question of course, is when did these two witnesses exist & why?

F2F

 

[Timtofly]

What it does say in the OT is that God hid/burried the body of Moses.

In Paradise with Elijah.

 

[David in NJ]

In Paradise with Elijah.

Moses was buried by God.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

Elijah was not buried.
2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[face2face]

Elijah was not buried.
2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

We are just not told - it likely he was.

 

[face2face]

Interesting response. I get the feeling whatever you were shown you would disregard.

I'm intrigued you would choose these two sections of Daniel's prophecy which deal with a period of history which takes you up to, and includes Christ's second coming. So, you are partially right with your own claim, however something tells me you might not fully understand what “Continuous Historical” means.

Take your Daniel 9 reference.

Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Daniel 9:24

This is a little off topic in understanding that the Continuous Historical interpretation model is the correct one for understanding the Revelation.

Can you explain your understanding of how this prophecy is to be fulfilled?

Read Daniel 9:15-16 for context to the fuilfillment of the red text.

What do you think was the end of Israels trasngression?
When do you believe God put an end to sin?
And when did God atone for iniquity ?
In an ultimate sense when will God through Christ bring in everlasting righteousness and unseal the vision and the prophet, to anoint the most Holy Place?

I'm hoping your answers will show us in this one verse you have continuous historical events which leads you to a future event to fulfill this prophecy.

Ultimately, what is shown in this verse is precisely how Daniel & the Revelation must be interpreted.

Hence the different metals of the image in Daniel 2 are historical empires one succeeding the other...same goes for Daniel Chapter 7 though from God's perspective (ugly vicious beasts).

Likewise, the unfolding of History in Revelation 7 to the end (scattered throughout the Revelation are visions for each generation to hold onto, to keep their lamps alight).

Thanks
F2F

@Truth7t7 worthy of a bump?