Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

[GodsGrace]

So there is not punishment in Hell then, right? What you have explained is the equivalent of saying Hell is coach and Heaven is first class. Not as good but.... eh.

You DO have a problem understanding love M,,,
and is it any wonder why.

 

[Mjh29]

You DO have a problem understanding love M,,,
and is it any wonder why.

You're right. Let me go back and read your posts to learn what true love is.

...

So.... sarcasm and name calling with a side of jeering and railing? Coupled with literally no interest in letting the Scriptures correct you, and any time your backed into a corner spitting out more names and insults?

You're right, I must not understand love.

 

[Mjh29]

And IF IT IS GOD who determines if I am to do GOOD OR EVIL....

is He a JUST GOD, as scripture states, if He sends me to hell for doing what
HE MADE ME DO?

God is just:

Deuteronomy 32:4
Romans 3:26

God made Adam disobey and eat of the fruit of his own FREE WILL?

 

[GodsGrace]

God made Adam disobey and eat of the fruit of his own FREE WILL?

Did God determine that Adam was to eat the fruit?

Does God have to determine everything that happens because He's so afraid of free will?
(libertarian of course).

If you understand about love...
HOW could you not have understood what the other member was posting?

Would YOU want YOUR wife to love you because you forced her to?
Or your friend, or sibling, or anyone you love.

THAT is not real love.

And, it looks to me like YOU are backed into the corner...

Where's my verse stating Jesus died for only a select few?
Where's my verse stating that God removed free will from our make up?

 

[atpollard]

And could you please post a verse that states that Jesus died for only a select few?
I'd rather see the verse rather than hear your incorrect opinion.

Here you go:

[Jhn 10:2-4, 11, 14-16, 26-30 NASB]
2 "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

• Jesus is the “shepherd” and God’s chosen are the “sheep” (see below).

3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

• The shepherd (Jesus) leads only his sheep (God’s Chosen).

4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. ...

• Jesus leads all of God’s Chosen and God’s Chosen follow of there own free will.

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ...

• Jesus makes it 100% clear that He is the shepherd.
• A shepherd guards his own flock. Remember that the sheep will only follow THEIR shepherd and not a stranger.
• Jesus lays down his life for his sheep ... God’s Chosen.

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

• Jesus repeats that he is the shepherd.
• Jesus repeats that he knows his sheep (God’s Chosen).
• Jesus repeats that God’s Chosen know Him.

15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The relationship between God the Father and God the Son is the same as the relationship between Jesus and His sheep (God’s Chosen).

16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. ...

• Jesus speaks of bringing the Gentiles into the Jewish Christian fold of God’s Chosen.
• Jesus must BRING THEM (not their free will decision to come).
• These sheep (God’s Chosen) WILL hear (no maybe).
• These sheep (God’s Chosen) WILL become one flock (no maybe).

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

• THE PEOPLE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING TO, THAT HEARD HIS WORDS, WERE NOT HIS SHEEP ( God’s Chosen).
• So not everyone is one of Jesus’ sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

• The characteristics if Jesus’ sheep (God’s Chosen) are
  • They hear Jesus
  • Jesus knows them
  • They follow Jesus

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

• The promises for Jesus’ sheep (God’s Chosen):
  • Eternal life
  • Never perish
  • Security in Jesus’ hand

29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• God’s Chosen: Jesus’ sheep belong to Jesus because God the Father GAVE those particular sheep to Jesus. Those that are not Jesus’ sheep must not have been given to Jesus by the Father or else they would be Jesus’ sheep.
• Jesus sheep are all God’s Chosen and God’s Chosen are

30 "I and the Father are one."

• Complete unity with this plan.

To recap:
God gave some sheep (people), but not all, to Jesus. Jesus is the Good Shepherd that died for His sheep (people) and gives eternal life to His sheep (people) and protects His sheep (people). Those people that are not His sheep (people) do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.

 

[marks]

So there is not punishment in Hell then, right? What you have explained is the equivalent of saying Hell is coach and Heaven is first class. Not as good but.... eh.

Not my words.

 

[atpollard]

1. How could our free will be free to do what is in our nature if we don't have free will?
2. In theology free will means the ability to make A MORAL CHOICE.

Ok, let’s talk about “Able To” vs “Want To” ...

Do you have the moral free will to immolate yourself (to pour gasoline all over your body and set yourself on fire)?

Do you want to set yourself on fire?

 

[Earburner]

I was asking for the name of an actual person in the Bible.

How about Judas Iscariot? You know that he was called "the son of perdition".
Since there is more than one (see 2 Thes. 2:3), how "many" more are there?

 

[atpollard]

And IF IT IS GOD who determines if I am to do GOOD OR EVIL....

No scripture states that, so no Calvinist claims that.

• Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity ... Rom 1:24
• For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions ... Rom 1:26
• And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind ... Rom 1:28

God restrains evil, or gives you enough rope to hang yourself.

 

[atpollard]

How about Judas Iscariot? You know that he was called "the son of perdition".
Since there is more than one (see 2 Thes. 2:3), how "many" more are there?

Did God call Judas to salvation?

 

[quietthinker]

GENESIS 4:


[Genesis 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis

tooooooooo many words atpollard. It's a straw man, a decoy, an appearance of insight only. If there was insight the subject matter would be different ie, 'when the Spirit of God comes he will take what is mine and give it to you' ...Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

Did God call Judas to salvation?

Every man is called unto the Gift of the Lord's salvation. It is evident that Judas did not "open the door". Rev. 3:20.

 

[Enoch111]

tooooooooo many words atpollard.

When you don't have a leg to stand on, then you have to be wordy. In politics it is called FILIBUSTERING.

 

[atpollard]

tooooooooo many words atpollard. It's a straw man, a decoy, an appearance of insight only. If there was insight the subject matter would be different ie, 'when the Spirit of God comes he will take what is mine and give it to you' ...Jesus.

Umm ... I was accused of avoiding the question of “When, where and how did man Lise free will?”. This topic was created just to answer that one question to the very best of my ability.

I am sorry if you don’t like the subject, but there are other topics that you could have responded to instead of this one.

With respect to the FALSE charge that it is a strawman, what argument by what opponent have I misrepresented in order to gain advantage in what debate?

 

[atpollard]

Every man is called unto the Gift of the Lord's salvation. It is evident that Judas did not "open the door". Rev. 3:20.

Revelation 3 is written to the churches. If Judas was not called to salvation then he was never part of the church and Rev 3 applies to him no more than the promise in John 10:28.

Judas was the “son of damnation”, does this sound like the Apostles chose to accept God or like God chose to claim the Apostles:

[John 17:6-12 NASB] 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received [them] and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 "I am no longer in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [the name] which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We [are.] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

[John 17:22-24 NASB] 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Is Judas where Jesus is? If not, then I guess that he was NOT one of “whom You have given Me”.

So where is the evidence that Judas was called to salvation and not to “perdition” (prophetic damnation)?

 

[atpollard]

When you don't have a leg to stand on, then you have to be wordy. In politics it is called FILIBUSTERING.

What is it called when you are brief and say nothing?

 

[atpollard]

What is it called when you are brief and say nothing?

Oh yeah, anti-Calvinism.
(Classic Arminians and Wesleyan Arminians at least have something to say.)

 

[Enoch111]

What is it called when you are brief and say nothing?

Silence is GOLDEN.:cool:

 

[quietthinker]

Umm ... I was accused of avoiding the question of “When, where and how did man Lise free will?”. This topic was created just to answer that one question to the very best of my ability.

I am sorry if you don’t like the subject, but there are other topics that you could have responded to instead of this one.

With respect to the FALSE charge that it is a strawman, what argument by what opponent have I misrepresented in order to gain advantage in what debate?

It's making a mountain out of a construct

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 3 is written to the churches. If Judas was not called to salvation then he was never part of the church and Rev 3 applies to him no more than the promise in John 10:28.

Judas was the “son of damnation”, does this sound like the Apostles chose to accept God or like God chose to claim the Apostles:

[John 17:6-12 NASB] 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received [them] and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 "I am no longer in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [the name] which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We [are.] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

[John 17:22-24 NASB] 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Is Judas where Jesus is? If not, then I guess that he was NOT one of “whom You have given Me”.

So where is the evidence that Judas was called to salvation and not to “perdition” (prophetic damnation)?

LOL...it was not the fault, plan or failure of God, that Judas didn't/couldn't HEAR His Voice!!

The fault lies with Judas, in his own free will choice to KEEP his OWN free will. Jesus did say "ye are gods", which is to say that He repects the sovereignty of our free will, even though it shall bring us to eternal destruction!!

That is the burden that God has concerning us, as He revealed in 2 Peter 3[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
.
I trust that you are aware, that when we do "hear His Voice and do open the door", we are entering into a covenant relalationship, that "we are bought with the price" of his precious Blood", and therefore WE ARE relinquishing OUR free will OVER TO HIS.

Surely you do understand that transaction, as shown in Romans 12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies aliving sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.