To the only God our Savior

[David in NJ]

The Father is the God of Jewish monotheism. You ruled out Jesus being a monotheist. How do you resolve this?



Did you mean to say, “There is no eternal life apart from the Lord Jesus Christ”?

If so, I agree.

If not, then I don’t know what you’re trying to tell me.

THANK YOU for the 'spell check' = correction made = LIFE not lie

Do you SEE this = "For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him."

Do you SEE that there is no separating the FATHER from the only begotten SON of the FATHER

 

[David in NJ]

The Father is the God of Jewish monotheism. You ruled out Jesus being a monotheist. How do you resolve this?



Did you mean to say, “There is no eternal life apart from the Lord Jesus Christ”?

If so, I agree. (Typos happen.)

If not, then I don’t know what you’re trying to tell me.

The FATHER is Elohim(Plural) as in Elohim WORD/SON and Elohim HOLY SPIRIT = "Let Us, Our, Our" = 3

 

[David in NJ]

@Matthias @MonoBiblical @Pierac

Good Night

 

[Matthias]

THANK YOU for the 'spell check' = correction made = LIFE not lie

You’re welcome. I hate spell check. It’s bailed me out a few times but it’s also gotten me into some ridiculous situations.

Do you SEE this = "For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him."

Yes.

Do you SEE that there is no separating the FATHER from the only begotten SON of the FATHER

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

The FATHER is Elohim(Plural) as in Elohim WORD/SON and Elohim HOLY SPIRIT = "Let Us, Our, Our" = 3

Are you trying to tell me that you believe the Father is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias @MonoBiblical @Pierac

Good Night

I still have a little work to do before it’s lights out for me. Hopefully we’ll talk again later today, or soon. Goodnight.

 

[MonoBiblical]

OK, my apology

Let me clarify: the Talmud is the oral law that BEGAN while the Jews were under Babylonian captivity because of their rebellion.

This then BECAME the written Talmud AFTER the MESSIAH because they, once AGAIN, REBELLED against their Elohim.

Again, you have no proof. Where is it among the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

[David in NJ]

Are you trying to tell me that you believe the Father is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

No, that would be 'modalism'

THEY are THREE and are ECHAD

How can we finite humans, that came into this world in sin and darkness, possibly understand:
a.) the Supernatural beyond our realm?
b.) see the Invisible SPIRIT of Elohim?
c.) know our HIM who created us?

Only One, Two, THREE

How many Elohim mentioned in this ONE passage???

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[Matthias]

No, that would be 'modalism'

THEY are THREE and are ECHAD

Thanks. It sounds to me that we are back to where I thought we were in the beginning -> you’re a trinitarian.

The God of the trinitarian or the God of the Jewish monotheist.

Jesus is a Jesus monotheist.

So which God does Jesus worship?

How can we finite humans, that came into this world in sin and darkness, possibly understand:
a.) the Supernatural beyond our realm?
b.) see the Invisible SPIRIT of Elohim?
c.) know our HIM who created us?

Only One, Two, THREE

How many Elohim mentioned in this ONE passage???

I agree with the Apostles’s Creed.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus himself is the helper.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I’m a Jewish monotheist. John is a Jewish monotheist. The history of the doctrine of the Trinity is easy to trace.



Yes. Jewish monotheism. It’s such an elementary historical point that it’s a concession by trinitarian scholars. I quoted J.A.T. Robinson as an example.




That’s a trinitarian perspective on a Jewish monotheist’s writing.



Isaiah is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

There is no “Isaiah the trinitarian” in history; there is a “Isaiah the Jewish monotheist” in history.

You’re once again taking something written by a Jewish monotheist and making use and application of it through your trinitarian eyes and mind.

There is no question that the Church began as a sect of, and within, Judaism. Everyone knows, or should, that Judaism (Jewish monotheism) is unitarian. (I’ll quote some trinitarian scholars to establish the point, if that’s really necessary.)

There is also no question that in the second century the Church moved away from Jewish monotheism, and that in the third century we still haven’t arrived at trinitarianism.

There is no question that the Church came close to trinitarianism at Nicaea in 325. There is no question that as late as 380 the Church was still unsettled on who or what the Holy Spirit is (I’ve quoted Gregory of Nazianzus, from Schaff’s History of the Christian Church, to demonstrate and document the point.)

Finally, there is no question that in 381, at the Council of Constantinople, the doctrine of the Trinity was completed.

This is nothing but Church history.

The only question is the one asked by the trinitarian scholar Harold O.J. Brown.

I quote trinitarian scholars (I rarely quote non-trinitarian scholars) and Church history not to prove or disprove the doctrine of the Trinity. The history is there and as plain as the nose on our faces. Everyone has to answer Dr. Brown’s question for themselves.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The Holy Spirit guided the church closer and closer to the Trinitarianism of the Gospel of John, rightly so, as I have shown you in the above quotes. The Word (the second Person) was with God (the Father) and was God (as the second Person).

The quote from Isaiah 55 is there to show you that the Trinity is a mystery that we cannot solve with our human minds.

 

[Matthias]

The Holy Spirit guided the church closer and closer to the Trinitarianism of the Gospel of John, rightly so, as I have shown you in the above quotes. The Word (the second Person) was with God (the Father) and was God (as the second Person).

The quote from Isaiah 55 is there to show you that the Trinity is a mystery that we cannot solve with our human minds.

Thanks. I’m an ex-trinitarian. When I was a trinitarian I thought and said what you are saying.

I’m a Jewish monotheist now.

 

[Matthias]

“What does the Old Testament tell us of God? It tells us there is one God, a wonderful God of life and love and righteousness and power and glory and mystery, who is the creator and lord of the whole universe, who is intensely concerned with the tiny people of Israel. It tells us of His Word, Wisdom, Spirit, of the Messiah He will send, of a Son of Man and a Suffering Servant to come. But it tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

(Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. xv)

The Old Testament is written by Jewish monotheists, not trinitarians.

“Isaiah the trinitarian” isn’t a biblical person.

Isaiah is a prophet of the one God. He doesn’t know anything about a Triune God or the doctrine of the Trinity. His God is the echad elohim of Jewish monotheism.

Fortman allows him to be what is -> a Jewish monotheist.

P.S.

Fortman is cognizant of the constraints of history. Shouldn’t we all be?

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks. It sounds to me that we are back to where I thought we were in the beginning -> you’re a trinitarian.

The God of the trinitarian or the God of the Jewish monotheist.

Jesus is a Jesus monotheist.

So which God does Jesus worship?



I agree with the Apostles’s Creed.



Jesus himself is the helper.

Jesus monotheist.

YHWH YAHshua HaMashiach Speaks of 3 = IAM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Echad Elohim = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

 

[Matthias]

That’s helpful. Now that you’ve ruled out Jesus being a monotheist, we are left with two questions:

1. What are the alteratives to Jesus being a monotheist? and

2. Who do you say Jesus worshipped as his deity?

There is no alternative to Jesus being a monotheist.

The only alternative to Jewish monotheism given in scripture is idolatry.

The Messiah is a Jewish monotheist. It’s inconceivable that the Messiah is an idolater.

 

[Matthias]

YHWH YAHshua HaMashiach Speaks of 3 = IAM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Echad Elohim = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

Jesus worships the one God. He either worships the Trinity (your God) or he worships the God of Jewish monotheism (my God).

I asked earlier why it doesn’t make sense to you that a Jewish monotheist worships the God of Jewish monotheism. I wasn’t moved by your response.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus worships the one God. He either worships the Trinity (your God) or he worships the God of Jewish monotheism (my God).

I asked earlier why it doesn’t make sense to you that a Jewish monotheist worships the God of Jewish monotheism. I wasn’t moved by your response.

Jesus, along with His Father, along with the Holy Spirit are ECHAD ELOHIM

Why are you not looking to the TRUTH???

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Echad Elohim = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

 

[Matthias]

Jesus, along with His Father, along with the Holy Spirit are ECHAD ELOHIM

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. His God is the echad elohim.

Why are you not looking to the TRUTH???

I am.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Echad Elohim = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

The scripture is the truth. It’s your conclusion that I don’t agree with.

Why are you not able to see that Jesus didn’t worship the Trinity?

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. His God is the echad elohim.



I am.



The scripture is the truth. It’s your conclusion that I don’t agree with.

Why are you not able to see that Jesus didn’t worship the Trinity?

Why are you not able to see that Jesus didn’t worship the Trinity?

The Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

How is it you refuse to SEE every scripture of TRUTH that SHOUTS OUT = "IAM HE"

Who does Zechariah chapter 12 speak of ???
a.) the FATHER
b.) the LORD
c.) the HOLY SPIRIT

 

[Matthias]

The Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Jesus is the embodiment of God’s logos.

How is it you refuse to SEE every scripture of TRUTH that SHOUTS OUT = "IAM HE"

Jesus is the logos of the one God made flesh.

Who does Zechariah chapter 12 speak of ???
a.) the FATHER
b.) the LORD
c.) the HOLY SPIRIT

The one God of Jewish monotheism.

You still haven’t answered the question I asked. Are you not going to?