To the only God our Savior

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Matthias

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Justin Martyr says Jesus is God. Read here. And admits there are at least two persons of God.

Justin Martyr said there are two numerical Gods, with one of the Gods being superior to the other.

That’s not Jewish monotheism. Jewish monotheism is able to express that Jesus is “God” without mixing in polytheism.

Is it trinitarianism?

Are you willing to make that same claim Justin made for trinitarianism? Will you say that there are three numerical Gods, with one of the Gods being superior to the other two Gods?
 

Matthias

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@Scott Downey will you also agree with Tertullian? Does he represent your understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity? If he does, then please go on record and claim him.

”Tertullian the trinitarian.” Yes? No? Not sure?
 

Matthias

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Justin Martyr says Jesus is God. …

So does Jewish monotheism. The difference is in how Jewish monotheism can say that Jesus is God. (As I’ve mentioned and explained on numerous occasions.)

… And admits there are at least two persons of God.

He doesn’t, but just for the sake of discussion, let’s ignore that he said there are two, unequal, numerical Gods. Why do you think Justin didn’t “admit” that there are “three persons of God”?
 

Scott Downey

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Tertullian taught Christ made everything in heaven and earth, and also taught the Holy Spirit as the paraclete from page 31

This is a good history of the early church.


C. Tertullian's doctrine of the oikonomia of God and its Stoic source.

After having condemned Praxeas doctrine, Tertullian explains the true belief accepted by those who are “better instructed by the Paraclete,” implying that his theory of the Trinity was a product of Montanist speculation. God is one, but has the following internal structure, described in Tertullian's terminology as “dispensation”or “economy” (sub hac tamen dispensatione quam oikonomiam dicimus): he has a physical pneumatic Son (Filius), his Word (Sermo), who proceeded from himself. Through this Son all things are made, so he had a function of creating and maintaining the world. The Son was sent by the Father into the virgin and was born as a man and God, as Son of Man and as Son of God (Filium hominis et Filium Dei), and is called Jesus the Anointed (Christ). After his death he was resurrected by the Father, taken into heaven (in caelo) to be seated at the right side of the Father. He will come to judge all men, dead and alive, before the institution of God‟s kingdom on earth. In the meantime the Father in heaven sent the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete (Spiritum sanctum, Paracletum).165 Before Tertullian there was a tradition of the unity of the Godhead as a concept derived from the Hebrew tradition, and a tradition of the triad, of his appearance and function, as formulated by the Apologists and based on Philonic hypostatization of the divine powers. Today Christians speculate that the trinitarian doctrine was present in the baptismal formula, but it was before Tertullian who formulated it explicitly. Tertullian's “rule of faith” is based on the specific interpretation of the story found in the Gospels and the formula of the baptismal invocation found in all early Christian writers. This rule also imposed on him the necessity to formulate a doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The Apologists were preoccupied with the Greek concepts of the Logos and treated the Holy Spirit in a fashion analogical to the Logos. Tertullian made the Holy Spirit related to the Son as the Son is related to the Father. The original sense of the crucial terms used for the development of Tertullian‟s doctrine is already changed in the Greek environment. And Tertullian 32 32 makes a special reference to the “beginning of the Gospel,” (ab initio euangelii), presumably that of John 1:1, as the source of his opinion, to him the true and original story. Any later theory must be considered a heresy. Quo preaeque aduersus uniuersas haereses iam hinc praeiudicatum sit id esse uerum quodcumque primum, id esse adulterum quodcumque posterius.166 The innovation introduced by Tertullian was the ascription of the relative unity to the triadic entities found in the Christian Logos theory as the unity of substance. Starting from the baptismal formula, Tertullian distinguished three persons and prolations with specific names in one God who is the common substance as a mode of existence of God and his economy, that is, his internal organization. Though Tertullian never defined what he meant by the term “person,” we must understand this word as a depiction of a distinct divine individual with distinct quality and function. Substance is the unifying element in the divinity while person is the differentiating characteristic in the life of God. If so, then there is no real division in the Godhead, only purely relative modal distinction. But then Tertullian is in contradiction when he claims a reality of the Word, and of the Holy Spirit by extension, as a substantiva res and a rational substance. Thus in any case it seems to be a verbal device to reconcile a popular triadic interpretation of the terms found in the New Testament and in the baptismal formula with the requirement of the oneness of God. Such a term has obvious origin from the analogy with the human entity which is defined by a set of physical and behavioral characteristics, and its status is regulated by laws in a society. This unity of the three entities is produced by the unity of substance (per substantiae unitatem) though its structure, that is distribution of one into the three, still remains a mystery (oikonomiae sacramentum). Nevertheless Tertullian found a formula which would verbally justify the claim: the three (the Father, the Son, and the [Holy] Spirit) are formed not in condition (statu), but in degree or sequence (gradu); not in substance (substantia), but in form (forma); not in

power (potentate), but in manifestation (specie); yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as he is one God, from whom (unus Deus ex quo) these degrees and forms and manifestations are designated (deputantur), under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And Tertullian promises to show how these three entities can be differentiated numerically without division. Moreover, he developed a concept of the prolation of the Holy Spirit from the Son, as the Son is a prolation of the Father.167 In Tertullian‟s understanding, heaven is a concrete physical place located above the earth, the abode of divine beings in the pneumatic realm of the world whose substance must be “ether,” “noetic fire” or “pneuma,” in accordance with the current view.168 This must be also the substance of all divine beings. Tertullian faces a problem, however, namely, how to reconcile the unity of God with the statements about the three entities, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit found in the New Testament writings, but understood and interpreted in the Greek naturalistic mode. Tertullian is aware that his opinion is not the only one; on the contrary the majority of believers cannot understand how one can believe in one God who may have his own dispensation in three entities. In popular folkloric interpretation they were considered three divinities. Thus the pressing issue was finding a formula which would reconcile their mutual relationship with the requirement of the unity of the divinity. He could not accept the solution proposed by Praxeas who reasoned that one cannot believe in one God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the very sameself, since this would imply that the Father or God suffered himself on the cross. The task of Tertullian, therefore, was to develop a formula by which the complete deity of Jesus and the reality of his identity as the Logos or the Mediator is distinct from the source-deity yet without creating two Gods. In Logos theory the distinction was introduced between the transcendent God and the derivative God, the absolute and the relative, and special problems arise when we consider now the
 

Scott Downey

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question of eternity or temporality of this distinction. The new trinitarian formulation evidently was not a popular or accepted belief during the time of Tertullian since he emphasized that the simple believers, and they are always in the majority, may have problems understanding this trinitarian assumption. Instead, they accept a triadic division of the unity of God, whereas, according to Tertullian, the triadic doctrine is a misunderstanding of God's economy (oikonomia) or dispensation/disposition (dispensatio or dispositio). Tertullian was a profoundly Stoic philosopher and he developed his concept of the trinitarian God from the analysis of four general Stoic logical categories. His theory is based on the assumption of unity and unchangeability of the substance and the relative distinctiveness of the three members of the divinity, i.e., the Spirit as the substance of God. His concept of substance and the Spirit as the material substance of God is unquestionably Stoic and used to describe the nature of God.169 The source of these assumptions is found in the four categories of being as formulated by the Stoics: substrates or substances of everything that exists (u[poke ,imena), qualities (poia.), the modes of existence or dispositions (pw/j e;conta), and the relative modes or dispositions of existence (pro.j ti, pw/j e;conta).170 The term substrate or substance Stoics applied to the first matter of everything that exists, as a material and corporeal object. The object becomes specific if it acquires qualities which were described as certain matter or pneuma with a certain mode of existence.171 Plutarch reported that, according to Academy, two doves, e.g., are two substances with one quality, while the Stoics hold that they are one substance and two qualified entities. He quotes Chrysippus saying that when the universe is destroyed by fire, Zeus, who alone of all gods will survive the conflagration, withdraws into Providence and the two, presumably distinct entities, will continue to exist as a single substance, ether (e vpi. mi,aj th /j tou/ aivqe ,roj ouvsi,aj). According to this Stoic view everything that exists is present in one substance as the prime matter of all things. Zeus is different, however, from all other particular entities in 35 35 that sense that he will not disappear losing his individuality and will return to the action in the next cosmic cycle. The term mode of existence or disposition was used to describe the qualitative substrate, not the existential substrate, of the particular thing by which the objects were differentiated.172 For example, in a certain mode of existence, a fist is not a hand for the fist remains in relation to the hand as to its substrate.173 The category of the relative mode of existence or relative disposition arose from the distinction between “sweetness,” “bitterness,” and similar things on the one hand, and “father,” and “a person on the right side,” on the other hand. The former objects were distinguished according to a difference which consists in an intrinsic specific property. These objects are different because they refer to something else. The latter category of objects comprises all things which are characterized not by an intrinsic inherent difference, but by a simple relation to each other. The “son” and the “person on the right side,” in order to exist as such, depend on something external to them. It is sufficient that the son dies or the person on the right side changes his position that the father and the person on the right side cease to exist without any direct change to any of them. Whereas “sweetness” and “bitterness” cannot change unless their internal properties are changed. Therefore, if the relatively disposed things change without being affected themselves because of something else changing its relation to them, it is clear that their existence depends only on their relationship and not on any differentiating factor.174 It seems that Tertullian, using such speculations, transposed the logical relationship between objects on the metaphysical existence of the divine Father and his Son, and also the third entity – the Holy Spirit. Thus the divine Father and the divine Son have their existence conditioned by their disposition only. They are not identical. Moreover, the Father makes a Son and the Son makes a Father by logical relationship, i.e., relative disposition.
 

Matthias

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Tertullian taught Christ made everything in heaven and earth, and also taught the Holy Spirit as the paraclete from page 31

This is a good history of the early church.


C. Tertullian's doctrine of the oikonomia of God and its Stoic source.

After having condemned Praxeas doctrine, Tertullian explains the true belief accepted by those who are “better instructed by the Paraclete,” implying that his theory of the Trinity was a product of Montanist speculation. God is one, but has the following internal structure, described in Tertullian's terminology as “dispensation”or “economy” (sub hac tamen dispensatione quam oikonomiam dicimus): he has a physical pneumatic Son (Filius), his Word (Sermo), who proceeded from himself. Through this Son all things are made, so he had a function of creating and maintaining the world. The Son was sent by the Father into the virgin and was born as a man and God, as Son of Man and as Son of God (Filium hominis et Filium Dei), and is called Jesus the Anointed (Christ). After his death he was resurrected by the Father, taken into heaven (in caelo) to be seated at the right side of the Father. He will come to judge all men, dead and alive, before the institution of God‟s kingdom on earth. In the meantime the Father in heaven sent the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete (Spiritum sanctum, Paracletum).165 Before Tertullian there was a tradition of the unity of the Godhead as a concept derived from the Hebrew tradition, and a tradition of the triad, of his appearance and function, as formulated by the Apologists and based on Philonic hypostatization of the divine powers. Today Christians speculate that the trinitarian doctrine was present in the baptismal formula, but it was before Tertullian who formulated it explicitly. Tertullian's “rule of faith” is based on the specific interpretation of the story found in the Gospels and the formula of the baptismal invocation found in all early Christian writers. This rule also imposed on him the necessity to formulate a doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The Apologists were preoccupied with the Greek concepts of the Logos and treated the Holy Spirit in a fashion analogical to the Logos. Tertullian made the Holy Spirit related to the Son as the Son is related to the Father. The original sense of the crucial terms used for the development of Tertullian‟s doctrine is already changed in the Greek environment. And Tertullian 32 32 makes a special reference to the “beginning of the Gospel,” (ab initio euangelii), presumably that of John 1:1, as the source of his opinion, to him the true and original story. Any later theory must be considered a heresy. Quo preaeque aduersus uniuersas haereses iam hinc praeiudicatum sit id esse uerum quodcumque primum, id esse adulterum quodcumque posterius.166 The innovation introduced by Tertullian was the ascription of the relative unity to the triadic entities found in the Christian Logos theory as the unity of substance. Starting from the baptismal formula, Tertullian distinguished three persons and prolations with specific names in one God who is the common substance as a mode of existence of God and his economy, that is, his internal organization. Though Tertullian never defined what he meant by the term “person,” we must understand this word as a depiction of a distinct divine individual with distinct quality and function. Substance is the unifying element in the divinity while person is the differentiating characteristic in the life of God. If so, then there is no real division in the Godhead, only purely relative modal distinction. But then Tertullian is in contradiction when he claims a reality of the Word, and of the Holy Spirit by extension, as a substantiva res and a rational substance. Thus in any case it seems to be a verbal device to reconcile a popular triadic interpretation of the terms found in the New Testament and in the baptismal formula with the requirement of the oneness of God. Such a term has obvious origin from the analogy with the human entity which is defined by a set of physical and behavioral characteristics, and its status is regulated by laws in a society. This unity of the three entities is produced by the unity of substance (per substantiae unitatem) though its structure, that is distribution of one into the three, still remains a mystery (oikonomiae sacramentum). Nevertheless Tertullian found a formula which would verbally justify the claim: the three (the Father, the Son, and the [Holy] Spirit) are formed not in condition (statu), but in degree or sequence (gradu); not in substance (substantia), but in form (forma); not in

power (potentate), but in manifestation (specie); yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as he is one God, from whom (unus Deus ex quo) these degrees and forms and manifestations are designated (deputantur), under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And Tertullian promises to show how these three entities can be differentiated numerically without division. Moreover, he developed a concept of the prolation of the Holy Spirit from the Son, as the Son is a prolation of the Father.167 In Tertullian‟s understanding, heaven is a concrete physical place located above the earth, the abode of divine beings in the pneumatic realm of the world whose substance must be “ether,” “noetic fire” or “pneuma,” in accordance with the current view.168 This must be also the substance of all divine beings. Tertullian faces a problem, however, namely, how to reconcile the unity of God with the statements about the three entities, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit found in the New Testament writings, but understood and interpreted in the Greek naturalistic mode. Tertullian is aware that his opinion is not the only one; on the contrary the majority of believers cannot understand how one can believe in one God who may have his own dispensation in three entities. In popular folkloric interpretation they were considered three divinities. Thus the pressing issue was finding a formula which would reconcile their mutual relationship with the requirement of the unity of the divinity. He could not accept the solution proposed by Praxeas who reasoned that one cannot believe in one God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the very sameself, since this would imply that the Father or God suffered himself on the cross. The task of Tertullian, therefore, was to develop a formula by which the complete deity of Jesus and the reality of his identity as the Logos or the Mediator is distinct from the source-deity yet without creating two Gods. In Logos theory the distinction was introduced between the transcendent God and the derivative God, the absolute and the relative, and special problems arise when we consider now the

Tertullian also taught that there was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father. We would be doing our readers a disservice if we neglected to point that out.

We should be able to quickly, easily, and happily agree that what Terullian believed and taught about the existence / preexistence of the Son is not what trinitarianism teaches concerning the matter.

I’m extending my hand to you. Will you shake on it?

***

I enjoy reading Tertullian. Two years ago when a Catholic member of the board was speaking with me, he reignited my interest in reading (rereading some of the writings which I had read in college) the writings of Tertuallian and all (with the exception of Origen, my least favorite of the time period) the other AnteNicene Church Fathers again. (I’ll eventually get back to reading / rereading Origen again.)
 
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Matthias

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Tertullian has more in common with Arius than he does with trinitarianism.

The whole notion of trinitarians walking the earth in the days of the Old Testament and / or in the days of the New Testament doesn’t match historical reality.

The doctrine of the Trinity took centuries to formulate and finalize after the last of the apostles had died.

Fortman speaks in his book on the history of the doctrine of the Trinity about what he calls “elemental trinitarianism” in the New Testament. (I’ve quoted it before in other threads. I’ll get around to quoting it again in this thread.) If I were to self-identify as an “elemental trinitarian” - which is something I could easily do with a clear conscience - would that make a difference in the minds of trinitarians about me? Would it make a difference in your mind @Scott Downey?
 

Matthias

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Tertullian also taught that there was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father. We would be doing our readers a disservice if we neglected to point that out.

Against Hermogenes, Chapter 3.


We should be able to quickly, easily, and happily agree that what Terullian believed and taught about the existence / preexistence of the Son is not what trinitarianism teaches concerning the matter.

I’m extending my hand to you. Will you shake on it?

If we can’t agree on something as simple and straightforward as that then what hope is there of being able to agree on anything?
 

Matthias

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Tertullian has more in common with Arius than he does with trinitarianism.

The whole notion of trinitarians walking the earth in the days of the Old Testament and / or in the days of the New Testament doesn’t match historical reality.

The doctrine of the Trinity took centuries to formulate and finalize after the last of the apostles had died.

Fortman speaks in his book on the history of the doctrine of the Trinity about what he calls “elemental trinitarianism” in the New Testament. (I’ve quoted it before in other threads. I’ll get around to quoting it again in this thread.) If I were to self-identify as an “elemental trinitarian” - which is something I could easily do with a clear conscience - would that make a difference in the minds of trinitarians about me? Would it make a difference in your mind @Scott Downey?

“If we take the New Testament writers together they tell us there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe, who is the Father of Jesus. … They give us in their writings a triadic ground plan and triadic formulas. They do not speak in abstract terms of nature, substance, person, relation, circumincession, mission, but they present in their own ways the ideas that are behind these terms. They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.

To study the gradual transition from an unformulated Biblical witness to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to a dogmatic formulation of a doctrine of the Triune God, we look first to the Eastern Church where most of this development took place.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God, pp, xv, xvi)

Bold is mine.

He knows the NT writers are Jewish monotheists, not trinitarians. He knows how the Church gradually transitioned from Jewish monotheism to trinitarianism.

It’s nothing but history; Church history.

Fortman doesn’t deny my historical place inside the Church. He acknowledges my location in Church history.

Jewish monotheists weren’t attempting to break into the Church. We were there in the very beginning. We are the primitive Christians.
 

Matthias

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“The Apologists were, in a sense, the Church's first theologians; the first to attempt a sketch of trinitarian doctrine and an intellectually satisfying explanation of Christ’s relation to God the Father. To set forth the truth handed down to them from the Apostles they used the terminology and philosophy that were current, and in the process they christianized Hellenism to some extent.“

(Ibid., p. xvi)

This is the beginning of the transition in the 2nd century away from the 1st century Jewish monotheism of the apostles. What if it hadn’t have happened? There would have been no transition. But it did happen.

How did the transition start? It started with the use of terminology and philosophy that the apostles didn’t use.

Were they successful? Fortman knows and will tell us.
 

Matthias

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Picking up where I left off in post #330.

“They manifested a belief in the unity of God and in some sort of ‘trinity of divinity,’ even though they had as yet no distinct conception of ‘divine person’ and ‘divine nature.’ They identified Christ with God, with the Logos, with the Son of God, but they seemed to count His Sonship not from eternity but from the moment of his pre-creational generation. In thus using a two-stage theory of a pre-existent Logos to explain the Son’s divine status, and His relation to the Father, they probably did not realize that this theory had a built-in ‘inferiorizing principle’ that would win for them the accusation of ‘subordinationism.’”

(Ibid., p. xvi)

Bold is mine.

This is why we hear someone like Tertullian saying that “there was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father.”( Or Justin Martyr saying that there are two numerical Gods, with one of the Gods being inferior to the other God.) The Son isn’t eternal in his / their thinking.

Pre-creational generation. It’s important for us to remember that phrase. Fortman is setting the stage for Origen.

He knows “there was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father” isn’t trinitarian thought, and that it is incompatible and irreconcilable with trinitarianism.

He knows that pre-creational generation - defined as a Sonship not from eternity (the Son isn’t co-eternal with the Father, having been generated by the Father only at a moment just prior to the Genesis creation) - is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.

“Tertullian the Jewish monotheist” didn’t exist. ”Tertullian the trinitarian” didn’t exist. “Tertullian the unitarian” existed. He is an important transitional figure in Church history.

***

When I was still teaching in the classroom I would ask Freshmen students to identify who they thought said “There was a time when the Son did not exist with the Father”. And what did they almost always tell me? Arius.

Arius is a unitarian, not a trinitarian.

Tertuallian said it, but very few of my students knew it. Arius said it, and almost all of my students knew it. Arius and Tertullian were both unitarians.

***

Now Fortman will tell us about Origen. (The Lutheran scholar Neve, readers may recall, speaks of Origen’s “helpful suggestion”.)

P.S.

I’ll pause here for a while (24-48 hours?) to give interested readers an opportunity to read, digest, and comment before picking up where I left off in Fortman’s overview of the history of the doctrine. I have no interest whatsoever in, nor any intention of, “flooding”.
 
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Matthias

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Having received no comments or questions, and not being adverse to talking to the wind, I‘ll pick up now where I left off in Fortman.

” Origen, the greatest theologian in the East, rejected this two-stage theory …”

(Ibid. p. xvi)

Origen rejected the theology of Tertullian and others. The next time someone suggests that Tertullian is a trinitarian, remember this. A question to ask is, “If Tertullian is a trinitarian, wouldn’t that mean that Origen rejected trinitarianism? The answer, of course, is that Tertullian isn’t a trinitarian and trinitarianism is still being developed.

”… and maintained the eternal generation of the Son.“

(Ibid., p. xvi)

The pre-creational generation of Tertullian (see post #331) which precluded co-eternal existence (there can be no Triune God without co-eternal existence) is jettisoned. This is a major step in the post-biblical development / formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

”But to reconcile the eternity of the Son with a strict monotheism, he resorted to a Platonic hierarchical framework for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and ended up by also making the Son and Holy Spirit not precisely creatures but ’diminished gods.’”

(Ibid., p. xvii)

Platonic hierarchical framework“. Origen is resorting to something which Jesus and the apostles didn’t. “Diminished gods”. That, of course, is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Origen made a critical contribution with his concept of ”eternal generation” but at this point in history we still haven’t arrived at the doctrine of the Trinity.

“Thus two currents of thought and belief began to stand out. One read the Biblical witness to God as affirming that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three who are equally God and somehow one God. The other read the Biblical witness differently and concluded that Christ, although divine to some extent, was not equal to the Father in divinity but somehow an ‘inferior god.’

This set the stage for Arius, one of the pivotal figures in the development of trinitarian dogma. The idea of a ‘diminished god’ he found repugnant. Christ, he declared, must be either God or creature. But since God is and must be uncreated, unoriginated, unbegotten, and the Son is and must be originated and begotten, He cannot be God but must be a creature. And thus the subordinationist tendency in the Apologists and Origen reached full term.”

(Ibid., pp. xvi-xvii)

This is a big moment in the history of the doctrine of the Trinity. The course of theology had already moved away from the Jewish monotheism of the primitive Christians; now it is moving away from the subordinationism / unitarianism of the Apologists.
 

Matthias

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6. Origen’s Helpful Suggestion. It was the many-sided genius of Origen that helped to solve the problem. Origen, like Tertullian, was strongly opposed to Monarchianism with its emphasis on monotheism to the exclusion of hypostasianism and tri-personality. Abandoning the view of the Apologists and of Tertullian who conceived the Logos to be a person only from the time of creation, Origen declared the Logos to have been a person from all eternity. ‘His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy produced by the sun.’ ‘The Father did not beget the Son and set Him free after He was begotten, but He is always begetting Him.’ This suggestion of an eternal generation was a needed contribution. It was unconsciously a step in the direction of the co-eternity and co-equality of the Son with the Father, as expressed in the Church’s doctrine of the Trinity.“

(J.L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 108)

There is a lot to take in here.

1. Origen and Tertullian are anti-Monarchians. (Jewish monotheism is Dynamic Monarchianism.)
2. Origen abandoned the views of Tertullian and the Apologists.
3. Origen offered an analogy, and all analogies for the Trinity are heretical.
4. Origen believed that the Father is constantly begetting the Son and will always be constantly begetting the Son.
5. Origen took an “unconscious step” in the direction of something which at that point in history did not yet exist in Christian theology but shortly would (i.e. co-eternal / co-equal).
 

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“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
Yes, throughout the Bible when God acts, it's the Persons of one God--the Father through Jesus by the Spirit's power--doing his work of creating, saving, and sanctifying together.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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Rather than dealing with the people who differed with each other about theology, I prefer to go to the Bible for the answers if there are any. In the Gospel of John, the Trinity is clearly taught throughout the book. I'll give you an insight from a liberal commentator who didn't believe in the inspiration of Scripture. After commenting on the whole book, he concluded with the proclamation that John believed in the Trinity. There you have God's testimony through a liberal, false scholar.

My conclusion after studying and preaching on the Gospel of John is that God is Triune--three Persons in ONE God--a truth that is a mystery that the human mind cannot solve. After all, he is God; we're not.
 

Matthias

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Yes, throughout the Bible when God acts, it's the Persons of one God--the Father through Jesus by the Spirit's power--doing his work of creating, saving, and sanctifying together.

Not in Jewish monotheism.
 

Matthias

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Rather than dealing with the people who differed with each other about theology, I prefer to go to the Bible for the answers if there are any. In the Gospel of John, the Trinity is clearly taught throughout the book. I'll give you an insight from a liberal commentator who didn't believe in the inspiration of Scripture. After commenting on the whole book, he concluded with the proclamation that John believed in the Trinity. There you have God's testimony through a liberal, false scholar.

My conclusion after studying and preaching on the Gospel of John is that God is Triune--three Persons in ONE God--a truth that is a mystery that the human mind cannot solve. After all, he is God; we're not.

I’ve been discussing the history of the doctrine if the Trinity in this thread. I’ve taken it near to the Council of Nicaes but plan to stop there. The doctrine wasn’t finalized at Nicaea, and that is why the Council of Constantinople was necessary in 381.

As for John, he - like Jesus and all of the other apostles - is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian. None of them knew anything about a Triune God.

As a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, which is to say, as a primitive Christian, I’m convinced from my reading of John through the lens of Jewish monotheism that the one God is the Messiah’s God and Father, and no other.

It’s a good and desirable thing to place the views side by side. Thanks.
 

Matthias

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“John is as undeviating a witness as any in the New Testament to the fundamental tenet of Judaism, of unitary monotheism (cp. Rom. 3:30; James 2:19). There is the one true and only God (John 5:44; 17:3); everything else is idols (1 John 5:21). In fact nowhere is the Jewishness of John, which has emerged in all recent study, more clear.”

(J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, p. 175)