To the only God our Savior

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - Expanded Bible

Christ Comes to the World - In the beginning [Gen. 1:1] ·there was the Word [the Word already existed; the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [the Father], and the Word was [fully] God. He was ·with [in...

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John 1​

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Expanded Bible​

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Christ Comes to the World​

1 In the beginning [Gen. 1:1] ·there was the Word [the Word already existed; C the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [C the Father], and the Word was [fully] God.

2 He was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God in the beginning.

3 All things ·were made [were created; came to be] ·by [through] him, and nothing ·was made [came to be] without him [Prov. 8:22–31].

4 ·In him there was life [or What was made through him was life], and that life was the light of all people. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not ·overpowered [defeated; or understood; comprehended] it.


6 There was a man named John [C the Baptist; Matt. 3; Luke 3] who was sent by God. 7 He came to ·tell people the truth [testify; bear witness] about the Light so that ·through him all people could hear about the Light and believe [L everyone might believe through him]. 8 John was not the Light, but he came to ·tell people the truth [testify; bear witness] about the Light. * 9 The true Light that ·gives light to [shines on; illuminates; enlightens] all [people] was coming into the world! [or 9 The true Light gives light to all who have come into the world.]

10 ·The Word [L He] was in the world, and the world ·was made [was created; came into being] ·by [through] him, but the world did not ·know [recognize] him. 11 He came to ·the world that was his own [or his own country; L that which was his own], but his own people did not ·accept [receive] him. 12 But to all who did ·accept [receive] him and believe ·in him [L in his name; C the name indicating the character of the person] he gave the ·right [power; authority] to become children of God. 13 They did not become his children ·in any human way [by natural descent; by physical birth; L by blood]—by ·any human parents [human passion/decision; L desire/will of the flesh] or ·human desire [a husband’s decision; L desire/will of a man/husband]. They were born of God.

14 The Word became ·a human [T flesh] and ·lived [made his home; pitched his tabernacle; C God’s glorious presence dwelt in Israel’s tabernacle in the wilderness] among us. We saw his ·glory [majesty]—the glory that belongs to the ·only Son [one and only; T only begotten] ·of [who came from] the Father—and he was full of ·grace and truth [God’s gracious love and faithfulness; Ex. 34:5–7].

15 John ·tells the truth about [testifies concerning; witnesses about] him and cries out, saying, “This is the One I told you about: ‘The One who comes after me [C in time] is greater than I am, because he ·was living [existed] before me [C a reference to Christ’s preexistence; 1:1–2].’”

16 ·Because he was full of grace and truth [L From his fullness; 1:14], from him we all received ·one gift after another [L grace for grace; C this could mean abundant grace or that the grace under Christ replaced grace under the law].

17 The law was given through Moses [Ex. 19—24], but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18 No one has ever seen God [C God the Father, who is pure spirit; 4:24]. But ·God the only Son[a] [God the one and only; the only Son who is himself God; T God the only begotten] is ·very close to [by the side of; close to the heart of; T in the bosom of] the Father, and he has ·shown us what God is like [made him known].

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1 - Expanded Bible

From Paul, an ·apostle [messenger] of Christ Jesus. ·I am an apostle because that is what God wanted […by the will of God]. Also from Timothy [Acts 16:1–5; 1 Cor. 16:10–11; Phil. 2:19–24; 1 and 2 Timothy], our brother. To the ·holy [saints] and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ that live...

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The Importance of Christ​

15 The Son [L …who] is ·the image of [exactly like; the visible representation of] the invisible God [John 1:18; Heb. 1:3]. He ·ranks higher than [L is the firstborn of/over] ·everything that has been made [all creation; Prov. 8:22–30].

16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.

17 He ·was there before anything was made [L is before all things], and all things ·continue [endure; or hold together; unite] ·because of [or in] him.

18 He is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning [C meaning (1) the source of the church; (2) the creator of all things; or (3) the beginning/initiator of the end-time resurrection]. He is the ·first one who was raised [L firstborn] from the dead. So in all things Jesus has ·first place [supremacy].

19 God was pleased for all ·of himself [that he is; L of his fullness] to live in ·Christ [or the Son; L him].

20 And through ·Christ [L him], God has ·brought all things back to himself again [L reconciled all things to himself]—things on earth and things in heaven. ·God made [L …by making] peace through the blood of ·Christ’s death on the cross [L his cross].

 

[Lambano]

That’s right. I don’t know if you can do this or not but can you forget for a moment that you’ve ever read John 1:1-3? Can you wipe your mind free and put yourself in the place of someone who is coming to John’s Gospel for the very first time and doesn’t know anything at all about? No preconceived idea, just a blank slate? If you can, let’s try this. I’m going to give you the first three verses in John and ask you to tell me what you hear and see.

***

”In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God and that Word was God. This same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.”

(John 1:1-3, Geneva Bible)

Read it a couple of times. Read it out loud at least once. What do you hear? What do you see?

I remember my Eastern and Soviet SciFi lit prof had programmed his HP 43C calculator to display John's Prologue in Russian, in the Cyrillic characters. Cool guy, Dr. Abernathy. I ran across an old pulp magazine with one of his stories at a SciFi convention in Denver a few years later; I regret not buying it.

That class got me thinking about John's Prologue for the first time. Going back in time 40 years...

I remember asking myself, How could a "Word" create anything? And how could a "Word" have an independent existence? And how could something other than God get credit for creating everything?

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ on a White Horse​

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
**********************************************

Christ also has a name written that no one else knows

 

[Matthias]

I remember my Eastern and Soviet SciFi lit prof had programmed his HP 43C calculator to display John's Prologue in Russian, in the Cyrillic characters. Cool guy, Dr. Abernathy. I ran across an old pulp magazine with one of his stories at a SciFi convention in Denver a few years later; I regret not buying it.

That class got me thinking about John's Prologue for the first time. Going back in time 40 years...

I remember asking myself, How could a "Word" create anything? And how could a "Word" have an independent existence? And how could something other than God get credit for creating everything?

God did it by it.

 

[Scott Downey]

Same as written in the 1599 Geneva bible

11 [p]And I saw [q]heaven open, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and he judgeth and fighteth righteously.

12 And his eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns: and he had a name written, that no man knew but himself.

13 And he was clothed with a garment dipped in blood, and his name is called, THE WORD OF GOD.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19 - 1599 Geneva Bible

1 The heavenly company praise God for avenging the blood of his servants on the whore. 9 They are written blessed, that are called to the Lamb’s supper. 10 The Angel will not be worshipped. 11 That mighty King of Kings appeareth from heaven. 19 The battle, 20 wherein the beast is taken, and cast...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Matthias]

Same as written in the 1599 Geneva bible

Would you care to comment on John 1:1-3 as rendered in the Geneve Bible?

11 [p]And I saw [q]heaven open, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and he judgeth and fighteth righteously.

12 And his eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns: and he had a name written, that no man knew but himself.

13 And he was clothed with a garment dipped in blood, and his name is called, THE WORD OF GOD.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19 - 1599 Geneva Bible

1 The heavenly company praise God for avenging the blood of his servants on the whore. 9 They are written blessed, that are called to the Lamb’s supper. 10 The Angel will not be worshipped. 11 That mighty King of Kings appeareth from heaven. 19 The battle, 20 wherein the beast is taken, and cast...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Scott Downey]

John 1:3 in many different versions, all use He
Wonder why Geneva uses it

John 1:3 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Reformers notes do not reference it, focused on Him as the everlasting Godhead

John 1:3

1599 Geneva Bible

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3 [a]All [b]things were made by it, and [c]without it [d]was made nothing that was made.
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. John 1:3 The son of God declareth that same his everlasting Godhead, both by the creating of all things, and also by the preserving of them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding, wherewith he that beautified man above all other creatures.
2. John 1:3 Paul expoundeth this place, Col. 1:15 and 16.
3. John 1:3 That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for he was fellow worker with him.
4. John 1:3 Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

 

[Scott Downey]

This Geneva bible uses He, not it.

John 1 Geneva Study Bible

biblehub.com

Geneva Study Bible John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God. (1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father. (a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things. (b) Had his being. (c) This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God. (d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here. (e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. {2} All {f} things were made by him; and {g} without him {h} was not any thing made that was made. (2) The Son of God declares that his everlasting Godhead is the same as the Father's, both by the creating of all things, and also by preserving them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding with which he has beautified man above all other creatures. (f) Paul expounds on this in Col 1:15-16. (g) That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for the Son was a fellow worker with him. (h) Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. {i} In him {k} was life; and the life was {l} the light of men. (i) That is, by him: and this is spoken after the manner of the Hebrews, meaning by this that by his force and working power all life comes to the world. (k) That is, even at that time when all things were made by him, for otherwise he would have said, Life in him, and not life was. (l) That force of reason and understanding which is kindled in our minds to acknowledge him, the author of so great a benefit. John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. {3} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness {m} comprehended it not. (3) The light of men is turned into darkness, but yet there is enough clearness so that they are without excuse. (m) They could not perceive nor reach it to receive any light from it, no, they did not so much as acknowledge him.

 

[Matthias]

John 1:3 in many different versions, all use He
Wonder why Geneva uses it

John 1:3 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Reformers notes do not reference it, focused on Him as the everlasting Godhead

John 1:3​

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1599 Geneva Bible​

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3 [a]All [b]things were made by it, and [c]without it [d]was made nothing that was made.
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. John 1:3 The son of God declareth that same his everlasting Godhead, both by the creating of all things, and also by the preserving of them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding, wherewith he that beautified man above all other creatures.
2. John 1:3 Paul expoundeth this place, Col. 1:15 and 16.
3. John 1:3 That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for he was fellow worker with him.
4. John 1:3 Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

Why do you think the translators of the Geneva Bible used ”it”? Every English translation directly from Greek published prior to 1611 also used “it”. Why do you think they did?

What do you see and hear when you read “it”?

 

[Scott Downey]

Several different Geneva versions exist through different years, last printed in 1644.
KJV 1611 took over as King James disliked the Geneva bible. And it was copied over and a few changes made.

Here is the 1525 Tyndale Bible. the newe testiment. John Chapter 1:1-51.

'it' in John 1:3 is used, and Him in John 1:10 as it is written still Christ made the world that He came into, sent by God
It is the word, and the word is Christ. Without the word (it) nothing was made. Our understanding of words has changed since the 1500's.

¶ In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. The same was in the beginning with god. All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was. In it was life, And life was the light of men, And the light shineth in the darkness, and darkness comprehended it not.
¶ There was a man sent from god, whose name was Ihon. The same came as a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that light: but to bear witness of the light. That was a true light, which lighteneth all men that come into the world. He was in the world, and the world by him was made: and the world knew him not.
¶ He came among his own, and his received him not. Unto as many as received him, gave he power to be the sons of god: in that they believed on his name: which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor yet of the will of man: but of god.
¶ And that word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw the glory of it, as the glory of the only begotten son of the father, which word was full of grace, and verity.

 

[Matthias]

Several different Geneva versions exist through different years, last printed in 1644.
KJV 1611 took over as King John dislike the Geneva bible. And it was copied over and a few changes made.

Here is the 1525 Tyndale Bible. the newe testiment. John Chapter 1:1-51.

'it' in John 1:3 is used, and Him in John 1:10 as it is written still Christ made the world that He came into, sent by God
It is the word, and the word is Christ. Without the word (it) nothing was made. Our understanding of words has changed since the 1500's.

¶ In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. The same was in the beginning with god. All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was. In it was life, And life was the light of men, And the light shineth in the darkness, and darkness comprehended it not.
¶ There was a man sent from god, whose name was Ihon. The same came as a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that light: but to bear witness of the light. That was a true light, which lighteneth all men that come into the world. He was in the world, and the world by him was made: and the world knew him not.
¶ He came among his own, and his received him not. Unto as many as received him, gave he power to be the sons of god: in that they believed on his name: which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor yet of the will of man: but of god.
¶ And that word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw the glory of it, as the glory of the only begotten son of the father, which word was full of grace, and verity.

A person is a ‘he” not an “it”.

When I read the English translations published prior to 1611 (and many translations published after 1611) I see and hear Jewish monotheism.

There is only one person in John 1:1-3 -> “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25).

Yahweh did it alone, by himself. John is taking his readers back to Genesis before taking his readers forward to the new genesis, which begins with the creation of the man in the womb of the virgin.

Hebrew davar = Greek logos. That’s what the translators of the Geneva Bible understood and that is why they translated logos as “it”.

 

[Matthias]

I read in another thread this morning someone saying that only trinitarians are Christians. That’s a popular position but it’s not historically accurate.

When Christians were Jews -> the 1st century primitive Christians, including the Messiah and the apostles.

Which came first in the Church? Jewish monotheism.

The history of the doctrine of the Trinity is the unfolding story of the gradual transition from Jewish monotheism to trinitarianism.

 

[Matthias]

In the words of Harold O.J. Brown - “the transition from the prayer Shema Yisroel, of Deuteronomy 6:4 (‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord …’), to the confession of the Athanasian Creed, ‘We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity.’”

Dr. Brown asked a crucial question: “Was the transition from the personal monotheism of Israel” - Jewish monotheism, unitarian - “to the tripersonal theism of Nicaea” - Nicene Christianity, trinitarian - “a legitimate development of Old Testament revelation?”

The Messiah and the apostles are Jewish monotheists, not Nicene trinitarians. The Shema is the greatest commandment, said Jesus. The Shema is his (and my) creed.

Trinitarianism (but not all trinitarians) excludes me (a believing Jewish monotheist) from being Christian. The Messiah and the apostles (all Jewish monotheists) recognize me as Christian - a follower of the Messiah.

 

[Lambano]

God did it by it.

Yes, but the question I asked back then was, what was "the Word", and how could "it" be God and yet be portrayed as distinct from God, both at the time of creation and when "it" became flesh and lived among us?

And why call "it" "the Word"?

 

[Scott Downey]

A person is a ‘he” not an “it”.

When I read the English translations published prior to 1611 (and many translations published after 1611) I see and hear Jewish monotheism.

There is only one person in John 1:1-3 -> “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25).

Yahweh did it alone, by himself. John is taking his readers back to Genesis before taking his readers forward to the new genesis, which begins with the creation of the man in the womb of the virgin.

Hebrew davar = Greek logos. That’s what the translators of the Geneva Bible understood and that is why they translated logos as “it”.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Do you believe that Christ is the Word of God?
Not certain you do...

Geneva Bible Study Notes :: John 1

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Matthias]

Yes…

A person is a “he” or a “him”, not an it”. John is speaking in the prologue about only one person, Yahweh.

… but the question I asked back then was, what was "the Word", and how could "it" be God and yet be portrayed as distinct from God, both at the time of creation and when "it" became flesh and lived among us?

The word is the plan of God. What existed only as thought in his mind came into existence when he created the heavens and the earth.

And why call "it" "the Word"?

John called “it” the logos (Heb. davar).

Everyone has logos / davar. You do, I do, God does, the Messiah does, every person does.

John is speaking about the incarnation of the Father’s logos / davar. What was “it” in the prologue becomes “he” (a person) when ”it” became flesh - and that took place when God beget Jesus in the womb of the virgin.

 

[Matthias]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

The word is not a person with God. “It“ is God.

Just as your thought are you. Have you ever been alone with your thoughts?

Do you believe that Christ is the Word of God?
Not certain you do...

Yes, but I don’t read it into John’s prologue. Messiah is the word of God, not another person who is also God, made flesh. That is Jewish monotheism.

At some point I think you must face the fact that John, like the Messiah himself, is a Jewish monotheist, not a Nicene trinitarian.

 

[MatthewG]

A person is a “he” or a “him”, not an it”. John is speaking in the prologue about only one person, Yahweh.



The word is the plan of God. What existed only as thought in his mind came into existence when he created the heavens and the earth.



John called “it” the logos (Heb. davar).

Everyone has logos / davar. You do, I do, God does, the Messiah does, every person does.

John is speaking about the incarnation of the Father’s logos / davar. What was “it” in the prologue becomes “he” (a person) when ”it” became flesh - and that took place when God beget Jesus in the womb of the virgin.

Thank you for some of your insight. This pretty much my line of thought since running across them a few years back. The Word of God to me is an expression of Yahavahs/Yahwehs heart. The mind and heart are synonymous with each other. As Jesus said from the heart thoughts come in the end words are typically expressed what the heart is thinking.

 

[APAK]

A person is a ‘he” not an “it”.

When I read the English translations published prior to 1611 (and many translations published after 1611) I see and hear Jewish monotheism.

There is only one person in John 1:1-3 -> “our only God and Savior” (Jude 1:25).

Yahweh did it alone, by himself. John is taking his readers back to Genesis before taking his readers forward to the new genesis, which begins with the creation of the man in the womb of the virgin.

Hebrew davar = Greek logos. That’s what the translators of the Geneva Bible understood and that is why they translated logos as “it”.

yes, the old Genesis to the new one in Christ...I created an illustration of this 'Genesis transition' a few years back....uncanny