To the only God our Savior

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
 
J

Johann

Guest
“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
"And Jesus our great God and Savior"

"And"

Conjunction: This connects the phrase to a preceding clause or sentence, implying that "Jesus" is included with something else that has been stated, likely referring to "God" or another subject previously mentioned.

"Jesus"

Proper noun: This is the subject of the phrase, referring specifically to Jesus Christ. It is the name of the person being described or identified.

"our"

Possessive pronoun: This modifies "Jesus" by indicating that He is personally related to the speaker and the listeners. In this case, it shows possession or belonging, making the phrase personal to the audience. It modifies both "great God" and

"Savior."
"great"

Adjective: This modifies "God," emphasizing the greatness of Jesus. It qualifies Jesus as not just a God, but a great God, implying His supreme nature or status.

"God"

Noun: This is the first predicate noun, indicating the divine nature or essence of Jesus. It is describing who Jesus is in terms of His identity, not just a human being but fully God.
In this case, it is part of a double-barreled title that stresses the deity of Jesus.

"and"

Coordinating conjunction: This connects "God" and "Savior," making both titles applicable to Jesus. It emphasizes that Jesus holds both titles simultaneously.

"Savior"

Noun: This is the second predicate noun, further describing Jesus' role and function. It denotes Jesus' role as the one who saves or rescues. Here, "Savior" reinforces the salvific function of Jesus alongside His identity as "God."

Summary of Grammatical Breakdown:
The phrase "And Jesus our great God and Savior" is composed of a subject (Jesus), a possessive pronoun ("our"), and two predicate nouns ("great God" and "Savior") connected by a conjunction ("and").
"Great" serves as an adjective modifying "God," emphasizing the magnitude of Jesus' divinity.
"God and Savior" work together as compound titles describing the full nature and role of Jesus.
The possessive pronoun "our" personalizes the phrase, linking the speaker and audience to Jesus.
This phrase encapsulates the dual nature of Jesus—He is both fully God (great God) and fully Savior, central to Christian doctrine, especially in the context of His divine and redemptive roles.

Who is Jesus in this verse? Is it not our great God and Savior?

J.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
"And Jesus our great God and Savior"

"And"

Conjunction: This connects the phrase to a preceding clause or sentence, implying that "Jesus" is included with something else that has been stated, likely referring to "God" or another subject previously mentioned.

"Jesus"

Proper noun: This is the subject of the phrase, referring specifically to Jesus Christ. It is the name of the person being described or identified.

"our"

Possessive pronoun: This modifies "Jesus" by indicating that He is personally related to the speaker and the listeners. In this case, it shows possession or belonging, making the phrase personal to the audience. It modifies both "great God" and

"Savior."
"great"

Adjective: This modifies "God," emphasizing the greatness of Jesus. It qualifies Jesus as not just a God, but a great God, implying His supreme nature or status.

"God"

Noun: This is the first predicate noun, indicating the divine nature or essence of Jesus. It is describing who Jesus is in terms of His identity, not just a human being but fully God.
In this case, it is part of a double-barreled title that stresses the deity of Jesus.

"and"

Coordinating conjunction: This connects "God" and "Savior," making both titles applicable to Jesus. It emphasizes that Jesus holds both titles simultaneously.

"Savior"

Noun: This is the second predicate noun, further describing Jesus' role and function. It denotes Jesus' role as the one who saves or rescues. Here, "Savior" reinforces the salvific function of Jesus alongside His identity as "God."

Summary of Grammatical Breakdown:
The phrase "And Jesus our great God and Savior" is composed of a subject (Jesus), a possessive pronoun ("our"), and two predicate nouns ("great God" and "Savior") connected by a conjunction ("and").
"Great" serves as an adjective modifying "God," emphasizing the magnitude of Jesus' divinity.
"God and Savior" work together as compound titles describing the full nature and role of Jesus.
The possessive pronoun "our" personalizes the phrase, linking the speaker and audience to Jesus.
This phrase encapsulates the dual nature of Jesus—He is both fully God (great God) and fully Savior, central to Christian doctrine, especially in the context of His divine and redemptive roles.

Who is Jesus in this verse? Is it not our great God and Savior?

J.

No. Jesus is the Son of my great God and Savior.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Ritajanice and APAK
J

Johann

Guest
No. Jesus is the Son of my great God and Savior.
Praise God for those who uphold the Deity of Messiah!


Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6)

Irenaeus frequently affirms the divinity of Jesus and His role in salvation. He writes:
"For the Word, who is the Son of God, was made flesh, and He is our Savior, the same who is both the eternal and the visible God."

Here, Irenaeus speaks of Jesus as both God (eternal) and Savior (visible), underlining His full divine nature and His work in salvation.

2. Athanasius (Against the Arians, Discourse 1, 35)

Athanasius defends the divinity of Jesus, specifically rejecting any subordinationist views. He says:
"He who is the Word of God is God, the Savior of all, the Creator, who made everything through Himself. For He is not some lesser deity, but the full manifestation of God."
Athanasius affirms the full divinity of Jesus and His role as Savior, emphasizing that He is not a created being but is fully God.

3. Tertullian (Against Praxeas, Chapter 27)
Tertullian, in his defense of the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, says:
"We recognize that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But the Son, being God, is also the Savior of mankind, in whom we are redeemed."
Tertullian highlights Jesus as both God and Savior, aligning with the Trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is fully divine while also acting as the Savior.

4. Cyril of Alexandria (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 5)
Cyril of Alexandria, commenting on the Johannine passages, writes:
"The Savior, who is both God and the Son of God, is rightly called the great God because of His nature and authority. For He is the one who has redeemed us and brought us to the Father."
Cyril acknowledges that Jesus, as God, is also Savior because of His redemptive mission, showing His dual role as divine and salvific.

5. John Chrysostom (Homilies on John, Homily 33)
Chrysostom makes clear the distinction between Jesus' divinity and His role as Savior:
"The Word, who is the eternal God, has become our Savior. Through Him, the Father is revealed, and by Him, we are saved."
Chrysostom emphasizes the unity of Jesus' divine nature and His role as Savior, expressing the theological point that salvation comes from the one who is God.

6. Augustine of Hippo (Against the Donatists, Book 3, Chapter 9)
Augustine affirms the belief that Jesus is both God and Savior:
"The Savior, who is God, assumed our nature. Through His incarnation, He has become both the Son of God and the Savior of man."
Augustine highlights Jesus' dual role in salvation, affirming His divinity while recognizing His redemptive mission as Savior.

7. Ambrose of Milan (Exameron, Book 5)
Ambrose, in his discussions of Christ’s nature, says:
"The same Jesus, the eternal Word, who is God of God, became our Savior. It is He who holds both the power of God and the mercy of the Savior."
Ambrose reiterates that Jesus is both God (the eternal Word) and Savior (who brings mercy and salvation).

Summary of the Early Church Fathers’ Views:
The ECFs consistently uphold the dual nature of Jesus as both God and Savior. They affirm that:

Jesus is not a lesser deity but fully God in His essence, sharing the same divine nature as the Father.
Jesus’ role as Savior is integral to His identity, with His divine nature enabling Him to accomplish the work of salvation for humanity.
The dual titles of God and Savior are not contradictory but complementary, showing that Jesus’ divinity is inseparably linked with His redemptive mission.

KJV AND SHARP’S FIRST RULE
Granville Sharp was a Christian abolitionist and devout scholar of the Greek [N]ew [T]estament who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the NT employs the Greek definite article (“the”) in respect to passages related to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules, the first of which has a direct bearing on how key texts in regards to Christ should be rendered in English.

Here’s an articulation of Sharp’s first rule: When two singular personal nouns/adjectives/participles that do not include proper names are connected by the conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun/adjective/participle, then both of the nouns/adjectives/participles refer to the same individual. Scholars subsequent to Sharp have carefully examined the Greek NT and have found no exceptions to this first rule.

Two such verses that fall under the purview of Sharp’s first rule, and which have spawned centuries of heated discussion and debate, are Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Here’s how they read in the Authorized King James Version (AV). I also include the rendering of both the New King James Version (NKJV) and New International Reader’s Version (NIRV) for comparative purposes:

“looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou);” Titus 2:13 AV

“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” NKJV

“13 That’s how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in his glory. He is our great God and Savior.” NIRV

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hemon kai soteros ‘Iesou Christou):” 2 Peter 1:1 AV

“Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” NKJV

“I, Simon Peter, am writing this letter. I serve Jesus Christ. I am his apostle. I am sending this letter to you. You are those who have received a faith as valuable as ours. You received it because our God and Savior Jesus Christ does what is right.” NIRV

Suffice it to say, some have taken the AV’s translation of these key verses as a denial of the Deity of Christ. At the very least, these individuals argue that the AV is less than explicit and leaves room for doubt, which is not the case with other versions such as the NKJV or the NIRV.

It is this objection to the AV which I seek to address here in my post.

A DENIAL OF CHRIST’S DEITY?


J.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them, But when they cried to You in the time of their distress, You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You gave them deliverers who delivered them from the hand of fheir oppressors.”

(Nehemiah 9:27, NASB)

”Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaving, according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.”

(Nehemiah 9:27, ESV)

Nehemiah is speaking here about Yahweh sending them deliverers / saviors, not about sending them the Messiah; nor is he speaking about the Messiah sending them deliverers / saviors.

Yahweh sent his oppressed people deliverers / saviors, to deliver / save, his people from their enemies.

Yahweh is the great God their Savior. He used human beings to deliver / save.

Yahweh is also the great God Messiah’s Savior.
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
Yahew Yahshua HaMashiach is the Savior that came down from Heaven directly from His FATHER who is God

If you understand that the word used for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural, then you can see what the Scriptures are saying beginning in Genesis

You will notice that in the Gospel it is ALWAYS "I and my FATHER are ONE" and this includes the HOLY SPIRIT

LOOK at the scripture you posted - “to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord,

SAME as "this is Eternal Life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

We cannot remove the Lord from God - Scripture will never allow this for the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God
 
  • Like
Reactions: ProDeo

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Praise God for those who uphold the Deity of Messiah!


Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6)

Irenaeus frequently affirms the divinity of Jesus and His role in salvation. He writes:
"For the Word, who is the Son of God, was made flesh, and He is our Savior, the same who is both the eternal and the visible God."

Here, Irenaeus speaks of Jesus as both God (eternal) and Savior (visible), underlining His full divine nature and His work in salvation.

2. Athanasius (Against the Arians, Discourse 1, 35)

Athanasius defends the divinity of Jesus, specifically rejecting any subordinationist views. He says:
"He who is the Word of God is God, the Savior of all, the Creator, who made everything through Himself. For He is not some lesser deity, but the full manifestation of God."
Athanasius affirms the full divinity of Jesus and His role as Savior, emphasizing that He is not a created being but is fully God.

3. Tertullian (Against Praxeas, Chapter 27)
Tertullian, in his defense of the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, says:
"We recognize that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But the Son, being God, is also the Savior of mankind, in whom we are redeemed."
Tertullian highlights Jesus as both God and Savior, aligning with the Trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is fully divine while also acting as the Savior.

4. Cyril of Alexandria (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 5)
Cyril of Alexandria, commenting on the Johannine passages, writes:
"The Savior, who is both God and the Son of God, is rightly called the great God because of His nature and authority. For He is the one who has redeemed us and brought us to the Father."
Cyril acknowledges that Jesus, as God, is also Savior because of His redemptive mission, showing His dual role as divine and salvific.

5. John Chrysostom (Homilies on John, Homily 33)
Chrysostom makes clear the distinction between Jesus' divinity and His role as Savior:
"The Word, who is the eternal God, has become our Savior. Through Him, the Father is revealed, and by Him, we are saved."
Chrysostom emphasizes the unity of Jesus' divine nature and His role as Savior, expressing the theological point that salvation comes from the one who is God.

6. Augustine of Hippo (Against the Donatists, Book 3, Chapter 9)
Augustine affirms the belief that Jesus is both God and Savior:
"The Savior, who is God, assumed our nature. Through His incarnation, He has become both the Son of God and the Savior of man."
Augustine highlights Jesus' dual role in salvation, affirming His divinity while recognizing His redemptive mission as Savior.

7. Ambrose of Milan (Exameron, Book 5)
Ambrose, in his discussions of Christ’s nature, says:
"The same Jesus, the eternal Word, who is God of God, became our Savior. It is He who holds both the power of God and the mercy of the Savior."
Ambrose reiterates that Jesus is both God (the eternal Word) and Savior (who brings mercy and salvation).

Summary of the Early Church Fathers’ Views:
The ECFs consistently uphold the dual nature of Jesus as both God and Savior. They affirm that:

Jesus is not a lesser deity but fully God in His essence, sharing the same divine nature as the Father.
Jesus’ role as Savior is integral to His identity, with His divine nature enabling Him to accomplish the work of salvation for humanity.
The dual titles of God and Savior are not contradictory but complementary, showing that Jesus’ divinity is inseparably linked with His redemptive mission.

KJV AND SHARP’S FIRST RULE
Granville Sharp was a Christian abolitionist and devout scholar of the Greek [N]ew [T]estament who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the NT employs the Greek definite article (“the”) in respect to passages related to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules, the first of which has a direct bearing on how key texts in regards to Christ should be rendered in English.

Here’s an articulation of Sharp’s first rule: When two singular personal nouns/adjectives/participles that do not include proper names are connected by the conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun/adjective/participle, then both of the nouns/adjectives/participles refer to the same individual. Scholars subsequent to Sharp have carefully examined the Greek NT and have found no exceptions to this first rule.

Two such verses that fall under the purview of Sharp’s first rule, and which have spawned centuries of heated discussion and debate, are Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Here’s how they read in the Authorized King James Version (AV). I also include the rendering of both the New King James Version (NKJV) and New International Reader’s Version (NIRV) for comparative purposes:

“looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou);” Titus 2:13 AV

“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” NKJV

“13 That’s how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in his glory. He is our great God and Savior.” NIRV

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hemon kai soteros ‘Iesou Christou):” 2 Peter 1:1 AV

“Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” NKJV

“I, Simon Peter, am writing this letter. I serve Jesus Christ. I am his apostle. I am sending this letter to you. You are those who have received a faith as valuable as ours. You received it because our God and Savior Jesus Christ does what is right.” NIRV

Suffice it to say, some have taken the AV’s translation of these key verses as a denial of the Deity of Christ. At the very least, these individuals argue that the AV is less than explicit and leaves room for doubt, which is not the case with other versions such as the NKJV or the NIRV.

It is this objection to the AV which I seek to address here in my post.

A DENIAL OF CHRIST’S DEITY?


J.

None of those whom you extoll for “upholding the Deity of the Messiah!” are Jewish monotheists. And Tertullian believed that there was a time when the Son did not exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Yahew Yahshua HaMashiach is the Savior that came down from Heaven directly from His FATHER who is God

All good gifts come down from heaven (James 1:17). They come down to us from the Father, who is God. The Messiah is the Father’s greatest gift to mankind.

If you understand that the word used for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural, then you can see what the Scriptures are saying beginning in Genesis

Elohim is plural in form, not plural.

You will notice that in the Gospel it is ALWAYS "I and my FATHER are ONE" and this includes the HOLY SPIRIT

LOOK at the scripture you posted - “to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord,

SAME as "this is Eternal Life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

We cannot remove the Lord from God - Scripture will never allow this for the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God

The only true God is the Father. The life of the age to come requires knowing both the only true God (the Father) and Jesus Messiah (the Son of the only true God.)

Yahweh and Jesus. Two persons. One God (the Father). One Messiah (Jesus).
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, ...”

(1 Corinthians 8:6a, ESV)

This is the one God of Jewish monotheism. This is Yahweh, the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.

”Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.” - Paul and Peter, both Jewish monotheists.

”…and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”

(1 Corinthians 8:6b,c, ESV)

This is the Messiah, the “my lord” of Psalm 110:1.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
10,356
10,827
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Praise God for those who uphold the Deity of Messiah!


Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6)

Irenaeus frequently affirms the divinity of Jesus and His role in salvation. He writes:
"For the Word, who is the Son of God, was made flesh, and He is our Savior, the same who is both the eternal and the visible God."

Here, Irenaeus speaks of Jesus as both God (eternal) and Savior (visible), underlining His full divine nature and His work in salvation.

2. Athanasius (Against the Arians, Discourse 1, 35)

Athanasius defends the divinity of Jesus, specifically rejecting any subordinationist views. He says:
"He who is the Word of God is God, the Savior of all, the Creator, who made everything through Himself. For He is not some lesser deity, but the full manifestation of God."
Athanasius affirms the full divinity of Jesus and His role as Savior, emphasizing that He is not a created being but is fully God.

3. Tertullian (Against Praxeas, Chapter 27)
Tertullian, in his defense of the orthodox understanding of the Trinity, says:
"We recognize that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But the Son, being God, is also the Savior of mankind, in whom we are redeemed."
Tertullian highlights Jesus as both God and Savior, aligning with the Trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is fully divine while also acting as the Savior.

4. Cyril of Alexandria (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 5)
Cyril of Alexandria, commenting on the Johannine passages, writes:
"The Savior, who is both God and the Son of God, is rightly called the great God because of His nature and authority. For He is the one who has redeemed us and brought us to the Father."
Cyril acknowledges that Jesus, as God, is also Savior because of His redemptive mission, showing His dual role as divine and salvific.

5. John Chrysostom (Homilies on John, Homily 33)
Chrysostom makes clear the distinction between Jesus' divinity and His role as Savior:
"The Word, who is the eternal God, has become our Savior. Through Him, the Father is revealed, and by Him, we are saved."
Chrysostom emphasizes the unity of Jesus' divine nature and His role as Savior, expressing the theological point that salvation comes from the one who is God.

6. Augustine of Hippo (Against the Donatists, Book 3, Chapter 9)
Augustine affirms the belief that Jesus is both God and Savior:
"The Savior, who is God, assumed our nature. Through His incarnation, He has become both the Son of God and the Savior of man."
Augustine highlights Jesus' dual role in salvation, affirming His divinity while recognizing His redemptive mission as Savior.

7. Ambrose of Milan (Exameron, Book 5)
Ambrose, in his discussions of Christ’s nature, says:
"The same Jesus, the eternal Word, who is God of God, became our Savior. It is He who holds both the power of God and the mercy of the Savior."
Ambrose reiterates that Jesus is both God (the eternal Word) and Savior (who brings mercy and salvation).

Summary of the Early Church Fathers’ Views:
The ECFs consistently uphold the dual nature of Jesus as both God and Savior. They affirm that:

Jesus is not a lesser deity but fully God in His essence, sharing the same divine nature as the Father.
Jesus’ role as Savior is integral to His identity, with His divine nature enabling Him to accomplish the work of salvation for humanity.
The dual titles of God and Savior are not contradictory but complementary, showing that Jesus’ divinity is inseparably linked with His redemptive mission.

KJV AND SHARP’S FIRST RULE
Granville Sharp was a Christian abolitionist and devout scholar of the Greek [N]ew [T]estament who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the NT employs the Greek definite article (“the”) in respect to passages related to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules, the first of which has a direct bearing on how key texts in regards to Christ should be rendered in English.

Here’s an articulation of Sharp’s first rule: When two singular personal nouns/adjectives/participles that do not include proper names are connected by the conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun/adjective/participle, then both of the nouns/adjectives/participles refer to the same individual. Scholars subsequent to Sharp have carefully examined the Greek NT and have found no exceptions to this first rule.

Two such verses that fall under the purview of Sharp’s first rule, and which have spawned centuries of heated discussion and debate, are Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.

Here’s how they read in the Authorized King James Version (AV). I also include the rendering of both the New King James Version (NKJV) and New International Reader’s Version (NIRV) for comparative purposes:

“looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou);” Titus 2:13 AV

“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” NKJV

“13 That’s how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in his glory. He is our great God and Savior.” NIRV

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hemon kai soteros ‘Iesou Christou):” 2 Peter 1:1 AV

“Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” NKJV

“I, Simon Peter, am writing this letter. I serve Jesus Christ. I am his apostle. I am sending this letter to you. You are those who have received a faith as valuable as ours. You received it because our God and Savior Jesus Christ does what is right.” NIRV

Suffice it to say, some have taken the AV’s translation of these key verses as a denial of the Deity of Christ. At the very least, these individuals argue that the AV is less than explicit and leaves room for doubt, which is not the case with other versions such as the NKJV or the NIRV.

It is this objection to the AV which I seek to address here in my post.

A DENIAL OF CHRIST’S DEITY?


J.
Johann, do you deliberately try to cause chaos and confusion when faced with a simple verse to reply to? The verse in the OP is clear and very simple and yet you are defiant, and continue to create novel meanings with clutter as lists of other verses in process.

Can you for once not hide behind words that are usually not yours and reply with your own view, in your own words for a change. Because when you have finished one of your extra long posts as this one here, the original intent of writing you post is usually lost in this clutter.

One is left with: 'what did he say or really mean.'

Now here is the simple verse once again:

AFV) To the only wise God our Savior, be the glory and greatness, the might and authority, even now, and into all the ages of eternity. Amen.
(DRB) To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages, and now, and for all ages of ages. Amen.
(EMTV) To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.
(KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
(LSV) to the only wise God our Savior, is glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and forever! Amen.
(Murdock) before his majesty, with joy, namely, the only God, our Deliverer, by means of Jesus the Messiah our Lord, be praise, and dominion, and honor, and majesty, both now and in all ages. Amen.
(NEV) to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now and for always in the future. Amen.
(RV) to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.
(Webster) To God the only wise, our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
(YLT) to the only wise God our Saviour, is glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen.

Johann: this is only ONE subject in many of these translations, and then two if we add in 'through Jesus the Christ' in some translations

Why make communications SO difficult as if you have a real agenda...and of course you do...

Can you guess who is the main subject in this verse Johann. Anybody home!?
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
10,356
10,827
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yahew Yahshua HaMashiach is the Savior that came down from Heaven directly from His FATHER who is God

If you understand that the word used for 'God' is Elohim and is Plural, then you can see what the Scriptures are saying beginning in Genesis

You will notice that in the Gospel it is ALWAYS "I and my FATHER are ONE" and this includes the HOLY SPIRIT

LOOK at the scripture you posted - “to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord,

SAME as "this is Eternal Life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

We cannot remove the Lord from God - Scripture will never allow this for the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God
and yet another person who cannot reply to the OP without adding in clutter...
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
and yet another person who cannot reply to the OP without adding in clutter...
Good Morning

The OP was directly addressed.

Why do you insist on calling God's Word as "clutter"???
 
J

Johann

Guest
None of those whom you extoll for “upholding the Deity of the Messiah!” are Jewish monotheists. And Tertullian believed that there was a time when the Son did not exist.
I can provide numerous Jewish sources that support the deity of the Messiah, Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, but since you have made this a salvation issue, despite the clear grammar in our Bible-both the Jewish Bible and Christian scriptures-you are far from truly embodying what it means to be "Jewish monotheists."


The inspired New Testament writings identify Jesus as that very one Lord through and for whom all things were created!

“Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one (kai hoti oudeis Theos, ei me heis). For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God, the Father (heis Theos, ho Pater), from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (heis Kyrios ‘Iesous Christos), through whom all things are and we through him.” 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 NWT

Therefore, a Greek speaking Jew would have understood the proclamation that Jesus is the heis Kyrios through and for whom everything exists as an affirmation that Christ is none other than the human incarnation of that very Jehovah God that the Israelites had to love with their whole being!

What this means is that the first Christians saw within the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 a clear testimony to the Father and the Son being the Lord God whom the Israelites were commanded to profess and worship.

In other words, within less than twenty years of our Lord’s physical and bodily resurrection and heavenly ascension, both Jewish and Gentile Christians were professing the Father as the Eloheinu (“our God”) of the Shema while also worshiping Jesus as that one and only YHVH of that very same Shema!

As the late Princeton theologian Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield put it:

“In the very act of asserting his monotheism Paul takes our Lord up into this unique Godhead. ‘There is no God but one,’ he roundly asserts, and then illustrates and proves this assertion by remarking that the heathen may have ‘gods many, and lords many,’ but ‘to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him’ (I Cor. vii. 6). Obviously, this ‘one God, the Father,’ and ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ,’ are embraced together in the one God who alone is. Paul’s conception of the one God, whom alone he worships, includes, in other words, a recognition that within the unity of His being, there exists such a distinction of Persons as is given us in the ‘one God, the Father’ and the ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Trinity; bold emphasis mine)

AN OBJECTION REFUTED

Here I would like to address the claim made by a New Testament professor named James F. McGrath in regards to the foregoing passage from Paul.

In his book, McGrath writes:

“As far as grammatical considerations are concerned, there is a sense in which either part of Paul’s statement could be taken on its own as a paraphrase of the Shema. The combination ‘one God and . . .’ suggests that we are dealing with a paraphrase of the Shema with an additional affirmation added alongside it—otherwise we would surely have expected Paul to express himself differently. Theoretically, he could have written, ‘There is one God: the Father, from whom are all things, and the Son, through whom are all things.’ This would have emphasized the oneness of God while including Jesus clearly within that one God. Instead, Paul uses a statement about one God, which itself is sufficient to reiterate the point of the Shema, and then goes further to talk about ‘one Lord.’ When the oneness of God is coupled with another assertion of oneness in this way, we must look carefully to determine whether we are indeed dealing with a splitting of the Shema that is without parallel, or an addition of a second clause alongside the Shema, which is not in fact unparalleled in Jewish literature.

“We are of course in no way denying that the Shema is in mind in 1 Corinthians 8, and that Jesus is being related to it. However, the nature of the relationship has for too long been assumed, and is in desperate need of clarification. The first part of Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 resembles the statement of faith, probably itself a paraphrase of the Shema, found in Philo’s writings: ‘Let us, then, engrave deep in our hearts this as the first and most sacred of commandments, to acknowledge and honor one God who is above all, and let the idea that gods are many never even reach the ears of the man whose rule of life it is to seek for truth in purity and goodness.’5 The point here is that there is one God who is incomparably ‘above all.’ Such language in early Judaism rarely if ever means that no other being may be referred to as ‘god,’ but simply that all others are (to use Paul’s own phrase) merely ‘so called gods’ who are not worthy of comparison with the one true God. Similarly, Paul’s statement slightly earlier that “there is no God but one” (1 Corinthians 8:4) closely resembles the statement in the Sibylline Oracles (3.629) that ‘He alone is God and there is no other.’ Mention may also be made of Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 5.112, which refers either to one God who is common to all Hebrews, or perhaps to the affirmation ‘God is one’ as being common to all Hebrews. At any rate, it seems clear that the language of ‘one God’ was already a well-known way of summarizing this aspect of Jewish belief. Paul uses this language of ‘one God’ and adds to it a reference to “one Lord.” It is thus the addition of another element alongside this traditional affirmation of Jewish monotheistic faith that we must attempt to understand.

“The contrast Paul makes—between many gods and one God and many lords and one Lord—sounds like it is referring to figures in the heavenly and earthly realms, respectively, to divine beings and their earthly representatives or mediators. Paul had just referred to ‘so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth’ (1 Cor. 8:5), and his reference to ‘many gods’ and ‘many lords’ appears to be an expansion or clarification of what Paul had in mind in referring to both heavenly and earthly ‘so-called gods.’6 The flow of the sentence and the parallels within it become clearer when outlined as follows:

“This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: ‘I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens BY MYSELF, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?’” Isaiah 44:24 NWT

“Because of him his messenger finds the way, and by his word all things hold together.” Sirach 43:26 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

“O sovereign Lord, didst thou not speak at the beginning when thou didst form the earth — AND THAT WITHOUT HELP— and didst command the dust and it gave thee Adam, a lifeless body? Yet he was the workmanship of thy hands, and thou didst breathe into him the breath of life, and he was made alive in thy presence.” 4 Ezra 3:4-5 RSV

“then I planned these things, and they were made THROUGH ME AND NOT THROUGH ANOTHER, just as the end shall come through me and not through another.” 4 Ezra 6:6 RSV

“This name was very appropriately bestowed upon him by our first ancestors, in order to signify that He THROUGH whom all things are endowed with life and come into being, is necessarily the ruler and lord of the Universe. Set all mankind an example of magnanimity by releasing those who are held in bondage.” Letter of Aristeas 16 RSV

“The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’” Acts 17:24-28 NWT

And yet the earliest Christians described Jesus as the Agent by and for whom all creation was brought into being!

“This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men… The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him… So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.” John 1:2-4, 9-10, 14 NWT

“who delivered you out of the jurisdiction of darkness and transferred you into the kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, the pardon of sins,—Who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation, because IN HIM everything was created in the heavens and on earth, the visible and the invisible, be it thrones or lordships or governments or dominions—everything has been created THROUGH HIM and to come TO HIM, and before everything HE IS, and IN HIM everything holds together.” Colossians 1:15-17 The Bible in Living English









And attributing it to his glorious Son!



jesus-christ-the-one-lord-of-the-shema/#:~:text=The%20inspired%20New,human%20existence.7

J.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
10,356
10,827
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good Morning

The OP was directly addressed.

Why do you insist on calling God's Word as "clutter"???
Stop with the cow manure and be real/honest. How clear can the intent of the OP be?
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All good gifts come down from heaven (James 1:17). They come down to us from the Father, who is God. The Messiah is the Father’s greatest gift to mankind.



Elohim is plural in form, not plural.



The only true God is the Father. The life of the age to come requires knowing both the only true God (the Father) and Jesus Messiah (the Son of the only true God.)

Yahweh and Jesus. Two persons. One God (the Father). One Messiah (Jesus).
Elohim is Plural AND Elohim is Truth and Elohim is the Eternal LIFE AND not the author of confusion

How 'Elohim' is used as singular denotes that Elohim's BEING is PLURAL and HIS Plurality is ONE

Therefore no matter Who Speaks/Works/Lives, the FATHER, the WORD, the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE

Yahweh/Lord is Jesus = OT Prophets declare this, JESUS declared this and the Apostles declared this

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Crystal CLEAR = 3 are ONE beginning in Genesis and all throughout the Holy Scriptures which are the Word of Elohim

May the Grace and Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ reveal this to you from the FATHER thru the Holy Spirit - Amen
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I can provide numerous Jewish sources that support the deity of the Messiah, Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, but since you have made this a salvation issue, despite the clear grammar in our Bible-both the Jewish Bible and Christian scriptures-you are far from truly embodying what it means to be "Jewish monotheists."


The inspired New Testament writings identify Jesus as that very one Lord through and for whom all things were created!

“Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one (kai hoti oudeis Theos, ei me heis). For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God, the Father (heis Theos, ho Pater), from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (heis Kyrios ‘Iesous Christos), through whom all things are and we through him.” 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 NWT

Therefore, a Greek speaking Jew would have understood the proclamation that Jesus is the heis Kyrios through and for whom everything exists as an affirmation that Christ is none other than the human incarnation of that very Jehovah God that the Israelites had to love with their whole being!

What this means is that the first Christians saw within the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 a clear testimony to the Father and the Son being the Lord God whom the Israelites were commanded to profess and worship.

In other words, within less than twenty years of our Lord’s physical and bodily resurrection and heavenly ascension, both Jewish and Gentile Christians were professing the Father as the Eloheinu (“our God”) of the Shema while also worshiping Jesus as that one and only YHVH of that very same Shema!

As the late Princeton theologian Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield put it:

“In the very act of asserting his monotheism Paul takes our Lord up into this unique Godhead. ‘There is no God but one,’ he roundly asserts, and then illustrates and proves this assertion by remarking that the heathen may have ‘gods many, and lords many,’ but ‘to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him’ (I Cor. vii. 6). Obviously, this ‘one God, the Father,’ and ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ,’ are embraced together in the one God who alone is. Paul’s conception of the one God, whom alone he worships, includes, in other words, a recognition that within the unity of His being, there exists such a distinction of Persons as is given us in the ‘one God, the Father’ and the ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Trinity; bold emphasis mine)

AN OBJECTION REFUTED

Here I would like to address the claim made by a New Testament professor named James F. McGrath in regards to the foregoing passage from Paul.

In his book, McGrath writes:

“As far as grammatical considerations are concerned, there is a sense in which either part of Paul’s statement could be taken on its own as a paraphrase of the Shema. The combination ‘one God and . . .’ suggests that we are dealing with a paraphrase of the Shema with an additional affirmation added alongside it—otherwise we would surely have expected Paul to express himself differently. Theoretically, he could have written, ‘There is one God: the Father, from whom are all things, and the Son, through whom are all things.’ This would have emphasized the oneness of God while including Jesus clearly within that one God. Instead, Paul uses a statement about one God, which itself is sufficient to reiterate the point of the Shema, and then goes further to talk about ‘one Lord.’ When the oneness of God is coupled with another assertion of oneness in this way, we must look carefully to determine whether we are indeed dealing with a splitting of the Shema that is without parallel, or an addition of a second clause alongside the Shema, which is not in fact unparalleled in Jewish literature.

“We are of course in no way denying that the Shema is in mind in 1 Corinthians 8, and that Jesus is being related to it. However, the nature of the relationship has for too long been assumed, and is in desperate need of clarification. The first part of Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 resembles the statement of faith, probably itself a paraphrase of the Shema, found in Philo’s writings: ‘Let us, then, engrave deep in our hearts this as the first and most sacred of commandments, to acknowledge and honor one God who is above all, and let the idea that gods are many never even reach the ears of the man whose rule of life it is to seek for truth in purity and goodness.’5 The point here is that there is one God who is incomparably ‘above all.’ Such language in early Judaism rarely if ever means that no other being may be referred to as ‘god,’ but simply that all others are (to use Paul’s own phrase) merely ‘so called gods’ who are not worthy of comparison with the one true God. Similarly, Paul’s statement slightly earlier that “there is no God but one” (1 Corinthians 8:4) closely resembles the statement in the Sibylline Oracles (3.629) that ‘He alone is God and there is no other.’ Mention may also be made of Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 5.112, which refers either to one God who is common to all Hebrews, or perhaps to the affirmation ‘God is one’ as being common to all Hebrews. At any rate, it seems clear that the language of ‘one God’ was already a well-known way of summarizing this aspect of Jewish belief. Paul uses this language of ‘one God’ and adds to it a reference to “one Lord.” It is thus the addition of another element alongside this traditional affirmation of Jewish monotheistic faith that we must attempt to understand.

“The contrast Paul makes—between many gods and one God and many lords and one Lord—sounds like it is referring to figures in the heavenly and earthly realms, respectively, to divine beings and their earthly representatives or mediators. Paul had just referred to ‘so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth’ (1 Cor. 8:5), and his reference to ‘many gods’ and ‘many lords’ appears to be an expansion or clarification of what Paul had in mind in referring to both heavenly and earthly ‘so-called gods.’6 The flow of the sentence and the parallels within it become clearer when outlined as follows:

“This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: ‘I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens BY MYSELF, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?’” Isaiah 44:24 NWT

“Because of him his messenger finds the way, and by his word all things hold together.” Sirach 43:26 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

“O sovereign Lord, didst thou not speak at the beginning when thou didst form the earth — AND THAT WITHOUT HELP— and didst command the dust and it gave thee Adam, a lifeless body? Yet he was the workmanship of thy hands, and thou didst breathe into him the breath of life, and he was made alive in thy presence.” 4 Ezra 3:4-5 RSV

“then I planned these things, and they were made THROUGH ME AND NOT THROUGH ANOTHER, just as the end shall come through me and not through another.” 4 Ezra 6:6 RSV

“This name was very appropriately bestowed upon him by our first ancestors, in order to signify that He THROUGH whom all things are endowed with life and come into being, is necessarily the ruler and lord of the Universe. Set all mankind an example of magnanimity by releasing those who are held in bondage.” Letter of Aristeas 16 RSV

“The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’” Acts 17:24-28 NWT

And yet the earliest Christians described Jesus as the Agent by and for whom all creation was brought into being!

“This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men… The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him… So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.” John 1:2-4, 9-10, 14 NWT


Your post was so large that the system wouldn’t allow me to reply to it without truncating it.

Yahweh is the Messiah’s God. Yahweh is the Messiah’s Father. There is no God besides Yahweh.

I like you, and I’ve tried to help you, but it‘s the trinitarians who have made your theology a salvation issue. It is the trinitarians who threw Jewish monotheists out of the church.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Elohim is Plural AND Elohim is Truth and Elohim is the Eternal LIFE AND not the author of confusion

How 'Elohim' is used as singular denotes that Elohim's BEING is PLURAL and HIS Plurality is ONE

Elohim is always plural in form and can be either singular or plural in meaning. There is no plurality in Yahweh in Jewish monotheism. He is only one person -> the Messiah’s God and Father.

The Messiah isn’t a trinitarian. His God isn’t plural. His God isn’t three in one. The Messiah is a Jewish monotheist, a strict unitarian.

Therefore no matter Who Speaks/Works/Lives, the FATHER, the WORD, the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE

Yahweh/Lord is Jesus = OT Prophets declare this, JESUS declared this and the Apostles declared this

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Crystal CLEAR = 3 are ONE beginning in Genesis and all throughout the Holy Scriptures which are the Word of Elohim

May the Grace and Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ reveal this to you from the FATHER thru the Holy Spirit - Amen
 
J

Johann

Guest
Johann, do you deliberately try to cause chaos and confusion when faced with a simple verse to reply to? The verse in the OP is clear and very simple and yet you are defiant, and continue to create novel meanings with clutter as lists of other verses in process.

Can you for once not hide behind words that are usually not yours and reply with your own view, in your own words for a change. Because when you have finished one of your extra long posts as this one here, the original intent of writing you post is usually lost in this clutter.

One is left with: 'what did he say or really mean.'

Now here is the simple verse once again:

AFV) To the only wise God our Savior, be the glory and greatness, the might and authority, even now, and into all the ages of eternity. Amen.
(DRB) To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages, and now, and for all ages of ages. Amen.
(EMTV) To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.
(KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
(LSV) to the only wise God our Savior, is glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and forever! Amen.
(Murdock) before his majesty, with joy, namely, the only God, our Deliverer, by means of Jesus the Messiah our Lord, be praise, and dominion, and honor, and majesty, both now and in all ages. Amen.
(NEV) to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now and for always in the future. Amen.
(RV) to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.
(Webster) To God the only wise, our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
(YLT) to the only wise God our Saviour, is glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen.

Johann: this is only ONE subject in many of these translations, and then two if we add in 'through Jesus the Christ' in some translations

Why make communications SO difficult as if you have a real agenda...and of course you do...

Can you guess who is the main subject in this verse Johann. Anybody home!?
You want to focus on just one solitary verse? Fine, I agree-can you agree with this verse? The only one pushing an agenda here is you, @APAK. Instead of letting the Scriptures speak for themselves, you’re trying to reinterpret them through the lens of your own philosophies.


"And Jesus our great God and Savior"
"And"

Conjunction: This connects the phrase to a preceding clause or sentence, implying that "Jesus" is included with something else that has been stated, likely referring to "God" or another subject previously mentioned.
"Jesus"

Proper noun: This is the subject of the phrase, referring specifically to Jesus Christ. It is the name of the person being described or identified.
"our"

Possessive pronoun: This modifies "Jesus" by indicating that He is personally related to the speaker and the listeners. In this case, it shows possession or belonging, making the phrase personal to the audience. It modifies both "great God" and

"Savior."
"great"

Adjective: This modifies "God," emphasizing the greatness of Jesus. It qualifies Jesus as not just a God, but a great God, implying His supreme nature or status.

"God"

Noun: This is the first predicate noun, indicating the divine nature or essence of Jesus. It is describing who Jesus is in terms of His identity, not just a human being but fully God.
In this case, it is part of a double-barreled title that stresses the deity of Jesus.

"and"

Coordinating conjunction: This connects "God" and "Savior," making both titles applicable to Jesus. It emphasizes that Jesus holds both titles simultaneously.

"Savior"

Noun: This is the second predicate noun, further describing Jesus' role and function. It denotes Jesus' role as the one who saves or rescues. Here, "Savior" reinforces the salvific function of Jesus alongside His identity as "God."
Summary of Grammatical Breakdown:
The phrase "And Jesus our great God and Savior" is composed of a subject (Jesus), a possessive pronoun ("our"), and two predicate nouns ("great God" and "Savior") connected by a conjunction ("and").
"Great" serves as an adjective modifying "God," emphasizing the magnitude of Jesus' divinity.
"God and Savior" work together as compound titles describing the full nature and role of Jesus.
The possessive pronoun "our" personalizes the phrase, linking the speaker and audience to Jesus.

Anyone home?

J.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,438
13,511
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Jude, like Jesus - and Paul and Peter - is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

Trinitarians aren’t reading the scriptures written by Jewish monotheists through the eyes of Jewish monotheism. It should come as no surprise then that Jewish monotheists and trinitarians read the same scripture and come away with a different understanding.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Wrangler