Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Timtofly]

Looking at the rampaging horsemen in the vials, it seems trouble starts before the trumpets. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is placed 1260 days before Jesus returns. Not sure what you call the abomination, but the one in the bible cannot be placed after Jesus returns to earth. Like He would not toss the punk into the lake, and allow him to have a kingdom etc?

Explain to me how anything is done after the Second Coming if you put the Second Coming last?

There cannot be a harvest without Jesus. Matthew 13. When is the harvest after Armageddon? No one is alive after Armageddon. A harvest is the removal of the soul from the body. You take the pea out of the pod. You take the corn out of the husk. You even take wheat out of the chaff. You don't ressurect a corpse and call that a harvest. The corpse is the pod, the husk, and the chaff. A harvest is not raising the dead useless parts.

A harvest is walking among the living and sending their soul to their eternal destinations. After Armageddon is only the dead corpse. In fact those dead souls are not ressurected for over 1,000 years. That is not a harvest.

Christ comes as Prince at the 6th Seal and carries out the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. The week of the 7th Trumpet is the celebration week, exactly like Palm Sunday was the week of the Atonement. This time the week has an even worse event. That punk kid wins this time and is given 42 months of total anarchy. The only way to prevent that is to have a completed harvest before the 7th Trumpet sounds. If the Atonement is confirmed and just one soul needs to have their head chopped off, Satan still gets 42 months, even if that head comes off 1 Second later. Perhaps the bar should be set higher? Should we prevent 100 people, from eternal life, so Satan does not get 42 months?

Remember Abraham's bargain with God over Sodom. You all are planning on Satan ruling for 42 months if you claim the Second Coming is Armageddon, because Armageddon is too late to stop Satan's 42 months. They already happened.

If there are no souls who would choose the Atonement after the Second Coming, then not a single head would have to come off. Only those beheaded are resurrected in Revelation 20:4. If no one has their head chopped off, no one is resurrected. No resurrection means no reason to have those 42 months. No one said, hey let's give Satan 42 months just for the fun of it. Abraham's offer was to stop the destruction to save them all. God is not going to save any one, after the 7th Trumpet who is not willing. So we have the winepress in Revelation 14 and no 42 months. Would you rather condemn no one, and put up with Sodom being destroyed? Or would you let Sodom have a 42 month extension if just one person repented in that 42 months? Abraham's faith did not go past 5. God would have let Sodom alone had Abraham asked for 1. Lot was about the only one, and he was in pretty bad shape. Abraham did not even have faith in Lot.

Perhaps you think this does not apply. Do you have a better reason for Revelation 13? Do you think there are some Job's in those 42 months? Job's life was spared. He did not have to cut his head off or be removed from the Lamb's book of life by receiving the mark instead. This 42 months is clearly linked to the Flood and Sodom. But the only reason for this 42 months is the gleanings that come after a harvest. The only gleanings are those with their heads cut off. The only gospel are those 2 witnesses. The only alter call is a guillotine.

The Second Coming is before the 7th Seal and 1st Trumpet. Then the final harvest.

 

[dad]

That happens long before the second coming so the only stars falling on the day Christ returns are his own angels, and again, not falling in the sinful sense. I've been making sense this whole time...maybe I am right on this one also.

If, as you say, the seals are foretelling what will happen, then where is that mentioned? The only place stars falling are mentioned is the sixth seal.
In addition the 144,000 from the 12 tribes that are sealed are only sealed AFTER those stars fall! Wow

 

[dad]

Explain to me how anything is done after the Second Coming if you put the Second Coming last?

There is plenty done when He returns. He saves Israel, and all new believers, He destroys all enemies and takes over the world...etc.

There cannot be a harvest without Jesus.

Matthew 9:37
Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

That did not mean all the people alive were to be harvested into space then! That means they are growing.

Matthew 13. When is the harvest after Armageddon? No one is alive after Armageddon. A harvest is the removal of the soul from the body. You take the pea out of the pod. You take the corn out of the husk. You even take wheat out of the chaff. You don't ressurect a corpse and call that a harvest. The corpse is the pod, the husk, and the chaff. A harvest is not raising the dead useless parts.

After that final battle, Jesus rules the world. All enemies are destroyed and all believers live. That is quite a harvesting!

A harvest is walking among the living and sending their soul to their eternal destinations. After Armageddon is only the dead corpse. In fact those dead souls are not ressurected for over 1,000 years. That is not a harvest.

What is your point about this harvest? If the bible used the term harvest for how the earth is when the tribulation started, well, that would be fine. That would indicate that the people are ripe and ready for what comes.

Christ comes as Prince at the 6th Seal and carries out the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Yet it is after that sixth seal that the 144,000 are sealed.

The week of the 7th Trumpet is the celebration week, exactly like Palm Sunday was the week of the Atonement.

What week? Some Jewish holiday?

This time the week has an even worse event. That punk kid wins this time and is given 42 months of total anarchy.

What time? What week?

The only way to prevent that is to have a completed harvest before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

To prevent what?

If the Atonement is confirmed and just one soul needs to have their head chopped off, Satan still gets 42 months, even if that head comes off 1 Second later. Perhaps the bar should be set higher? Should we prevent 100 people, from eternal life, so Satan does not get 42 months?

No idea what you are talking about. What atonement?

Remember Abraham's bargain with God over Sodom. You all are planning on Satan ruling for 42 months if you claim the Second Coming is Armageddon, because Armageddon is too late to stop Satan's 42 months. They already happened.

He is already in power when that 42 months starts. No idea what you are trying to say.

If there are no souls who would choose the Atonement after the Second Coming, then not a single head would have to come off.

Look, after Jesus returns forget about all that stuff. He kills all enemies dead and rules.

Only those beheaded are resurrected in Revelation 20:4. If no one has their head chopped off, no one is resurrected. No resurrection means no reason to have those 42 months.

You seem confused.

No one said, hey let's give Satan 42 months just for the fun of it.

Satan does get a little time in the end to rule by his man, the AntiChrist. God said so.

Perhaps you think this does not apply. Do you have a better reason for Revelation 13? Do you think there are some Job's in those 42 months? Job's life was spared. He did not have to cut his head off or be removed from the Lamb's book of life by receiving the mark instead. This 42 months is clearly linked to the Flood and Sodom. But the only reason for this 42 months is the gleanings that come after a harvest. The only gleanings are those with their heads cut off. The only gospel are those 2 witnesses. The only alter call is a guillotine.

The Second Coming is before the 7th Seal and 1st Trumpet. Then the final harvest.

I would recommend the gospels and psalms. The milk of the word. Obviously you can't begin to chew the meat.

 

[ewq1938]

If, as you say, the seals are foretelling what will happen, then where is that mentioned? The only place stars falling are mentioned is the sixth seal.

Here:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Angels are called stars,a and going from heaven DOWN to the Earth is "falling stars".

In addition the 144,000 from the 12 tribes that are sealed are only sealed AFTER those stars fall! Wow

No, the sealing happens before thousand years Great Tribulation starts while the falling stars/angels take place after the Great Tribulation has ended.

 

[dad]

Here:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Of course Jesus comes with the angels and the saints. That does not say that no stars fall before then.

Angels are called stars,a and going from heaven DOWN to the Earth is "falling stars".

Sorry, that is a very weak argument. The angels coming with Jesus are supposed to be falling stars!? Come on man.

No, the sealing happens before thousand years Great Tribulation starts while the falling stars/angels take place after the Great Tribulation has ended.

Thousand year great tribulation? Never heard of that and it is not in the bible. The Tribulation in the bible is a lot less.

Sorry I tried to take you seriously this long.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course Jesus comes with the angels and the saints. That does not say that no stars fall before then.
Sorry, that is a very weak argument. The angels coming with Jesus are supposed to be falling stars!? Come on man.

They are metaphorically falling stars/angels. Who else can the stars be in the 6th seal?

Thousand year great tribulation? Never heard of that and it is not in the bible. The Tribulation in the bible is a lot less.

That was a mistake on my part. "Thousand years" was meant to be the word "the". I have a shortcut when I type t and h to be "thousand years" but I meant to type t h e but missed the E.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Looking back, I see I must have misread your post.

"This one will be defeated by christ himself.. I do not think either are in the first 3.5 years. As they are said to be a time of peace."

I had thought you meant they will be attacked in a time of peace.

I also was thinking of this verse
Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

So the attack comes when they dwell safely.

Ezekiel 38:14
Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God ; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?



Yes there will be terrible persecution of believers.

remember a few things.

Ezek 38 says they dwell in the mountains. Rev 13 says that the beast goes after the woman, and can not harm her, so he turns and goes after her offspring (that would be gentile believers)

Matt 24, Jesus says when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel. run...That is when they run into the mountains. and God protects them (they live in peace)

It is then when God threatens to attack, and as Ezek 38 says, God will destroy them with a natural disaster.. Not an army..

 

[Davy]

The only blind one is the one who says zech is about the church

[FONT=Open Sans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Those in Zech 13 are scattered (2.3) this occured in 70 AD.. 1/3 are saved, this is the remnant, Even paul mentioned the remnant in Rom 11[/FONT]

Biblical blindness is with thinking that if it's written in the Old Testament, then it must always be about Israel.

 

[Davy]

I was not ignoring those verses, but getting the context of when it was that was being talked about. The clear context repeated often is 'in that day'!
Also, we see this
Zechariah 13:8
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord , two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Two thirds of the people in Israel did not die when they killed Jesus.

You still don't get it. Because Jesus' crucifixion was being pointed to directly in the two prior verses, it shows those 'saved' HAVE TO BE CHRISTIANS.

 

[Davy]

At the 7th trumpet Jesus returns to the earth. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, he will remain in the clouds.

No, you're adding to the Scripture with that last part about His remaining in the clouds. When Jesus comes, He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him, and then those of us still alive are "caught up" to them and Him, ON THE WAY to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. He comes in the clouds, not stay... in the clouds. That staying in the clouds, or going back into Heaven is a false pre-trib rapture theory creation by men.

 

[The Light]

It's sad that you even believe that ..There's only TWO advents of Christ in ALL of scripture, PERIOD!!!!

What's really sad is watching so many of you go back and forth about what the Church is doing during the 70th week of Daniel, not understanding that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and it is the time when God regrafts the 12 tribes across the earth. Then comes the explanations about who the 144,000 are without understanding that they are exactly what the Bible says they are, the first fruits of the second harvest. What I believe does not require me to make anything up, it only requires that I accept what is written. Jesus tells us that He is coming when we think not and yet it appears many do not believe that.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Chapter and verse?

If you do not understand the Seals are a part of the 70th week then that's on you. I shan't even waste the effort to try and inform you on that. Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER.

Except that at the end of that time the earth and heaven are made new and the old ones pass forever away and all the dead are raised to be judged. You should not get so lost in playing with numbers that you lose track of reality.

No one is "playing with numbers" this has been my calling for over 37 years, I am an expert on these things. I am writing a book on End Time Eschatology as we speak.

You have so jumbled up this post I cant tell what is my words or yours.

 

[The Light]

No, you're adding to the Scripture with that last part about His remaining in the clouds. When Jesus comes, He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him, and then those of us still alive are "caught up" to them and Him, ON THE WAY to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. He comes in the clouds, not stay... in the clouds. That staying in the clouds, or going back into Heaven is a false pre-trib rapture theory creation by men.

No, you are ignoring what the scripture says. At the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, He sends His angels. Jesus remains in the clouds.
Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,

This has nothing to do with the pretribulation rapture. The pretrib rapture happens BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel, which is before the seals are opened.

It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured from the earth at the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the wrath of God.
2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Believers are NOT appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The gathering from heaven and earth is before the wrath of God. Only the those that flee as instructed and unbelievers will be on earth when the wrath of God occurs. Those that flee, will be in a place of protection. Jesus returns at the end of wrath with His armies after the marriage supper which is in heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Biblical blindness is with thinking that if it's written in the Old Testament, then it must always be about Israel.

Biblical blindness is looking at any passage old or new, and translating it to fit your belief system, and not looking at it in context.

Salvation of gentilkes and the church is in the OT. However, In the passage we are discussing, It is not part of that context.

When your actually ready to discuss the passage, and set aside your pride. let me know.. I will be glad to discuss it.

as long as you just want to attack with this same strawman of how I am blind etc etc. Then I will let you be.

 

[Timtofly]

There is plenty done when He returns. He saves Israel, and all new believers, He destroys all enemies and takes over the world...etc.

Matthew 9:37
Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

That did not mean all the people alive were to be harvested into space then! That means they are growing.

After that final battle, Jesus rules the world. All enemies are destroyed and all believers live. That is quite a harvesting!
What is your point about this harvest? If the bible used the term harvest for how the earth is when the tribulation started, well, that would be fine. That would indicate that the people are ripe and ready for what comes.
Yet it is after that sixth seal that the 144,000 are sealed.

What week? Some Jewish holiday?

What time? What week?

To prevent what?


No idea what you are talking about. What atonement?

He is already in power when that 42 months starts. No idea what you are trying to say.

Look, after Jesus returns forget about all that stuff. He kills all enemies dead and rules.

You seem confused.

Satan does get a little time in the end to rule by his man, the AntiChrist. God said so.




I would recommend the gospels and psalms. The milk of the word. Obviously you can't begin to chew the meat.

I am talking about in the narrative of Revelation.

The harvest happens in the Trumpets and Thunders. Even in the opening of the 4th Seal. Jesus is already here during the harvest. The Second Coming is not 42 months after the harvest is already over. The Second Coming is before the harvest starts.

 

[The Light]

No idea what that actually means in your mind. The chosen Jews from the tribes are chosen to be a witness in that tribulation period, not chosen to join captain Picard on a space flight somewhere.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So you say that the Jews will be a witness in the tribulation period. That's truth and as we CAN PROVE, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars that are in Matt 24 and the sixth seal. Then you say that the Jews are not chosen for a flight somewhere. The Word says that they are.
Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Those that are raptured from the earth at the sixth seal, just before the wrath of God are singing the Song of Moses. They are Jews that took a flight and are in heaven for the marriage supper.

Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests. God will regraft Israel into the olive tree during the 70th week of Daniel. This is why the Church is not mentioned after Rev 5 unless they are in heaven. All you have to do is read what the word says. When it says we are not appointed to wrath, that means we will not be here during the wrath of God. And neither will His other bride.

 

[dad]

They are metaphorically falling stars/angels. Who else can the stars be in the 6th seal?

In more than one place in the bible, Satan falling is connected with stars. There is a difference, I would think, between flying somewhere and 'falling'.

You have not addressed the issue of how the sealing of the witness is AFTER the sixth seal.

 

[dad]

Ezek 38 says they dwell in the mountains. Rev 13 says that the beast goes after the woman, and can not harm her, so he turns and goes after her offspring (that would be gentile believers)

These prophesies are about different events and times.

Matt 24, Jesus says when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel. run...That is when they run into the mountains. and God protects them (they live in peace)

When the abomination is set up, they will run and be protected.

It is then when God threatens to attack, and as Ezek 38 says, God will destroy them with a natural disaster.. Not an army..

So now you are back at that Eze 38 and 39 battle. Try to focus and articulate what you are trying to say.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

These prophesies are about different events and times.
When the abomination is set up, they will run and be protected.
So now you are back at that Eze 38 and 39 battle. Try to focus and articulate what you are trying to say.

excuse me my friend, My whole post was about the gog attack that Jesus puts down.

I am very focused. Are you?

 

[dad]

You still don't get it. Because Jesus' crucifixion was being pointed to directly in the two prior verses, it shows those 'saved' HAVE TO BE CHRISTIANS.

There were no Christians then. The chapter is about the last days...'in that day'.
For context of when this is all about we can, for example, look at the last chapter

Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

That is not talking about Christians. It is Israel, and the time is when Jesus returns, and Israel finally believes.