Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

All 144,000 are Christians. But only 3 tribes mentioned represented Jews of the "house of Judah".

Jewish Christians from the tribes.

In Ezekiel 38, the Israel dwelling in safety WITHOUT WALLS is being pointed to. The main part of the Book of Ezekiel was God sending His Word through Ezekiel to the TEN TRIBES in captivity a bit farther north in Assyria.

The main part of the thread was looking at prophesy, especially Eze 38 and 39

Ezek 3:1-5
1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.

2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
KJV

Rather than referring to far away lands and languages, it seems the term house of Israel denotes the people of Israel.

Eze 3:4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. 5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of a hard language, but to the house of Israel; 6 Not to many people of a strange speech and of a hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee. 7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hard-hearted

That does not sound like being sent to far flung strange lands or lost tribes.

At that time, God had long before already split old Israel into two separate houses, and had scattered the ten northern tribes of Israel first out of the land

Even before that in Moses's day they were called that.

Exodus 16:31
The house of Israel named it manna, and it was like coriander seed, white, and its taste was like wafers with honey.

So we know who He is talking to, no need to invoke lost tribes in the west etc.

 

[dad]

The idea that the one-third means only Jews like the false pre-trib rapture theory trib saints idea, is a leaven tradition of men.

One third actually means one out of three.

The one third represents Christ's faithful Church that is 'sealed' with God's seal to go through the great tribulation, and cannot be deceived.

Says who? He is talking about people of Israel. He says two thirds will die. Then the third left believe. When the people left alive (all Israel at the time) are saved, that will be all Israel getting saved.

 

[dad]

T
1. Does God's wrath normally contain (the seals themselves) the contents of the scroll?

There is nothing normal about that last seven years. Jesus made that clear. It will be unlike any other time past or future.

Jesus opening a seal doesn't imply wrath at all.

That depends if the seals are part of that last seven years. Looking at what happens in both the vials and trumpets and the seals, it is the same things. The vials are called the end of the wrath, so that period has to be wrath, of which the end part are the vials.

There is no verse that proves it.

Not if your mind is made up already, and you insist on interpreting all verses accordingly.

It only showed he was granted the ability to do it when mankind wasn't worthy. Breaking the seals allows its contents to be read and thereby known. If you read anything in Rev 4 and 5, understand that God gave all authority to Christ from the Old Covenant (which we see in Rev 4) to a New Covenant (in Rev 5) where the 7 spirits of God are first under God, and then Christ. It is describing the change of a new testator. A new covenant.

Does it even mention covenant? No, it does mention events of that last seven years though. It is all about how the world will be judged and changed.

He was worthy and given all power. It is a past event that John had to witness in order to explain a future event because its impossible to explain the trumpets if you dont explain the sealed 144k.

Not sure, but you seem to be saying the seals are past? Ha

And if you explain the sealed 144k, you have to explain the 6th seal call for his "orge".

Maybe tell us all what this 'call for his orge', and what it has to do with the Jews from the tribes?

And if you explain the 6th seal, you must explain the other 5 and the scroll that is sealed and the one who was made worthy.

Well, when something is sealed that means we can't see it or know what is in it, no? Not rocket science, that. Then it gets unsealed. So, then we can know what was in there! So what was in there? The same things that are in the vials and trumpets basically. That is anything but past.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

If we are told to not be troubled, why would a non troubled time be consider God's fiery wrath?

The Great Tribulation is trouble. Big trouble and wrath. We are not to be troubled because, for one thing we are not appointed to be there for that. Why would we be troubled?? What is somewhat troubling is that most people on earth will be there for it. Jews also. It is even called the time of Jacob's trouble.

6. The first occurrence of the word for wrath doesnt exist till the 6th seal is opened and it describes his "Orge" anger (judgment) during the trumpets which is nothing like his out poured fiery wrath of "Thumos" in the bowls.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is a question. In the above verses it seems like it is talking about the time when men are getting the mark, and it is said that people dying from this time forward (henceforth) are blessed. So this is wrath and this seems to be placed in that Tribulation time. No?

Wrath doesnt exist in any of the seals. The coming "Orge" is why they hide in the rocks and the mountains and it is why the 144k are then to be sealed. If you read up on anything regarding God's wrath or anger, at least look up a correlation between the rocks falling, the 6th seal signs in heaven.

That may be correct, that the time when people hide is seemingly that time when Jesus returns to take over and slay the wicked. That is wrath also, and the culmination and completion of wrath! However, looking at what you said about that is the time the 144,000 are sealed, I would wonder if there was a time also, earlier in the seven years when there was a great shaking also? It does seem that the 144,000 are sealed and protected for the whole time, no? That might be something to look at.

8. The 24 Elders still hold the prayers of the saints BEFORE the seals are opened implying the saints are still on earth during the seals (Revelation 5:8) and that those prayers go up before God.

Since the Bride was Raptured before all hell broke loose that makes perfect sense. Where else would we be?
Then, by the fifth seal, of course there would be many many new believers on earth that were killed and crying out, no?

 

[dad]

Where in all of scripture does God command believers redeemed by his blood to be literal virgins? If we take the 144k to be literal Jewish men, by bloodline, it exempts all women and we must also take them literally as virgins. Where does Christ command us that to be redeemed and the first fruits of his, we must be virgins (never sexually active) ?

Did you think virgin was about physical non sexual lifestyle? I would think it is pure in spirit and not committing adultery with the world sort of thing myself. Just like the Bride before that. Believers are not sexually inactive just because we are the Bride of Christ! I daresay that being sexless in this world is a dangerous thing, just look at the pedophiles in some churches that practice (supposedly) that sort of unnatural thing!

 

[dad]

Gabriel never told Daniel there would be a 7 year period called the "wrath of God".

He did tell him there would be a seven year period in which everlasting righteousness would be brought in. That terrible time for the world is spoken about all over the bible. There is no reason to call it anything but God judging the world in wrath. That wrath culminates at the end, but the end of that period is not the only wrath!

Jesus is the 70th week.

No. Jesus is not last Tuesday, next Wednesday, last Friday, Halloween, or Valentine's day either! Jesus is a Person!

Even Daniel 9:27 states "in the midst". Only half of the 70th week is future

No, it states nothing of the silly sort.

, because Christ/Messiah was cut off after 3.5 years of earthly ministry.

Oh? Can you show the verse that says His ministry lasted 1260 days exactly?
No, you cannot, obviously. Even if you could, it says Messiah was killed even before that last seven years.

Jesus did not stay on earth as Prince.

Who said He did?

God declared the fullness of the Gentiles, and placed the end of the 70th week on hold.

The verse where God declared some fullness of Gentiles while He was here??

Only the 1,000 years reign will see those promises in Daniel 9:24.

No. When Jesus comes back, there will be righteousness and peace etc. Why would we wait till the 1000 years were over for that?

Many are wrong, because they force the 70th week to all be in the first century.

They would be wrong.

The other group is wrong who force 7 years into the future.

You think everlasting righteousness and an end to sin has arrived on earth now? Seriously?

The last half is not even going to be a full 3.5 years. That time will keep growing shorter the longer God holds off the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. See Revelation 9:15

Let me get this straight. The 3.5 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days are not real. They can 'really' mean (insert any number you like to make up here)?

Even if a person on earth could know when the 1st Seal was opened, would that moment have started the last 3.5 years of the 70th week?

I don't think so. If we are Raptured before that period starts or as it starts, then we WILL know when the first seal is opened! Why would you think that would be way over in the middle of the seven years?

The 70th week is only for Israel and not the church.

False. It is for Israel, yes, as a remnant will ve saved. However the church having been Raptured will not be here. There will be untold millions of new believers though, and we can say it is for them also.

The church belongs in Paradise which is currently in the firmament.

That is where the Rapture connects the dots.

Israel will not be prepared until they actually see their Prince at the Second Coming,

They will weep as for an only son when they see Him actually.

and it will be too late for the majority, if the prophets said only a third would be redeemed from the earth.

No. It says a third of Israel will remain alive maybe. Not that only 1/3 of people on earth will be saved!

Literally the only hope for a person calling themselves an Israelite is to accept the Messiah and join the church.

Now..yes, they need to believe in Jesus. (that is joining the church of course)

No one has the guaranteed assurance, they will be one of the chosen.

Every believer has absolute guaranteed assurance of salvation.

That is why they are given a 50/50 chance, but in reality the odds are even lower.

There is no chance involved. Prophesy reports how many Jews will make it, but no chance is involved. Just choice.

This parable of the virgins only separates those alive of Israel who are part of the church.

You made that up. It does not say the virgins are part of some church or Israel.

The parable of the virgins are those of Israel who choose Christ.

Why just Israel?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Did you think virgin was about physical non sexual lifestyle? I would think it is pure in spirit and not committing adultery with the world sort of thing myself. Just like the Bride before that. Believers are not sexually inactive just because we are the Bride of Christ! I daresay that being sexless in this world is a dangerous thing, just look at the pedophiles in some churches that practice (supposedly) that sort of unnatural thing!

You can’t take one part literal and not the other to fit your theory. Similar to what Pre-TB does with their theft in various passages. Ie. They’ll borrow 1 taken and 1 left as a rapture but then they say there is no rapture in Matthew 24 cause it’s for the Jews. Or that the rapture comes like a thief in the night. No wrong! The DotL comes like a thief, not the rapture.

 

[No Pre-TB]

There is nothing normal about that last seven years. Jesus made that clear. It will be unlike any other time past or future.


That depends if the seals are part of that last seven years. Looking at what happens in both the vials and trumpets and the seals, it is the same things. The vials are called the end of the wrath, so that period has to be wrath, of which the end part are the vials.


Not if your mind is made up already, and you insist on interpreting all verses accordingly.



Does it even mention covenant? No, it does mention events of that last seven years though. It is all about how the world will be judged and changed.


Not sure, but you seem to be saying the seals are past? Ha



Maybe tell us all what this 'call for his orge', and what it has to do with the Jews from the tribes?


Well, when something is sealed that means we can't see it or know what is in it, no? Not rocket science, that. Then it gets unsealed. So, then we can know what was in there! So what was in there? The same things that are in the vials and trumpets basically. That is anything but past.


The Great Tribulation is trouble. Big trouble and wrath. We are not to be troubled because, for one thing we are not appointed to be there for that. Why would we be troubled?? What is somewhat troubling is that most people on earth will be there for it. Jews also. It is even called the time of Jacob's trouble.


Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is a question. In the above verses it seems like it is talking about the time when men are getting the mark, and it is said that people dying from this time forward (henceforth) are blessed. So this is wrath and this seems to be placed in that Tribulation time. No?
That may be correct, that the time when people hide is seemingly that time when Jesus returns to take over and slay the wicked. That is wrath also, and the culmination and completion of wrath! However, looking at what you said about that is the time the 144,000 are sealed, I would wonder if there was a time also, earlier in the seven years when there was a great shaking also? It does seem that the 144,000 are sealed and protected for the whole time, no? That might be something to look at.


Since the Bride was Raptured before all hell broke loose that makes perfect sense. Where else would we be?
Then, by the fifth seal, of course there would be many many new believers on earth that were killed and crying out, no?

The bride was raptured? Ok. Where is the great multitude? The bema seat? The reward? The archangel? The last trumpet? The kingdom? Sorry, none of those exist in Rev 4 or 5 and Christ cannot, will not leave Heaven till the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21 and I’m afraid nothing is restored 7 years beforehand. Good try though.

 

[Timtofly]

If you died say, 3 years into the seven years, and were killed for your faith, you would be up there, no? So why would you not join those praying for judgment? His reply was basically that they should wait till all believers who were to be martyred were also killed. That does not say that all the people crying out were killed before the seven years began.

What does this mean?

"that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The first jump without thought is that killed means martyred. No! That was already covered with this point:

"them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

So what is this being killed entail? It is quite obvious that neither the OD nor Revelation clearly defines a rapture event. The wording in Revelation is about killing and being killed. If you go by Paul's writings the rapture and glorification happens at the Second Coming. Yet in Revelation, those in heaven are glorified at the 5th Seal and the Second Coming is the 6th Seal. There is no "little season" in Paul's writings, but the same event. Those killed on earth is the rapture event, though. Because being killed in Revelation is the symbolism for shedding Adam's flesh and blood physical bodies. One could say, the rapture literally physically kills Adam's flesh and blood. But Paul states it as being changed, not killed. Jesus declares physical death as not even tasting death, but Jesus never describes it as being changed. Yet every time one of the redeemed church members physically dies, Adam's flesh is killed, the soul does not taste death, but there is an instant change from this temporal corruptible tent, to a permanent incorruptible building in Paradise.

So the being killed point in the 5th Seal is only the rapture to allow the church to meet in the air, and be glorified as one body. Being killed is merely being caught up and leaving Adam's flesh and blood behind. It is not to be interpreted as waiting to be martyred in the time of Israel's trouble. Not even Israel is going to be "martyred". Revelation 17:6 is the only time the word "martyr" is even used, even though the 5th Seal implies martyrdom. Yet if you single out martyrs, you are splitting the church into two groups, because not all redeemed die as martyrs and being glorified is for the whole church not just those martyred. Of course being slain for the Word of God also applies to whomever crucifies the flesh daily for the Word of God, although not many give up their life on a daily basis either.

Since Revelation is probably a more extensive look at the OD, and the OD was not pointed at the church but more Israel centric, then that would be why it does not obviously line up with Paul's writings, which were to a broader group of Jews living among the Gentiles, and to the Gentiles themselves.

Personally I do not make a big issue out of the church being a separate group from obviously national and carnal Israel. Isreal will be dealt with after the Second Coming, and never was the church glorified to begin with. Israel was the chosen nation to represent God before all nations. But Israel was never corporately the church, just as Israel never had a leg up as being part of the church. Even the Gentiles before Israel and throughout Israel's existence had access to being part of the church. The only point I take away from the Cross, per this one point, is that there was no longer a levitical priest representing me before God, but now I am my own sole representative. Even before the Cross many from around the world came up once a year for the purpose of each and every nation to be represented before God. The Cross did indeed change that. The Millennial Kingdom will have God on earth representing Himself as Prince, because it is the Day of the Lord.

So the Seals do represent the removal of the church from the earth prior to God once again dealing directly with Israel. After the sheep and goats are dealt with, God will personally deal with the rest of the Nations. I think Matthew 13 was given to that end, and not to the church nor specifically to Israel. I am not sure why it is hard to figure out the church as being separate from Israel. I know many teach the church is now spiritual Israel, but that is replacement theology speaking. The church was always a separate group in Israel and not corporate Israel. The church knew the daily sacrifice were not the complete redemption process. Israel did have to live by works and daily activity in the Law. That was their covenant with God, even if they mostly rejected that point. Obviously sin offers more pleasure than obedience. As many point out, the church was still those who trusted God by faith, not the daily living out the Law.

So the church did not take over for Israel, because that would mean the Law would keep going. There was no replacement. People just kept on accepting God in faith, but now held themselves accountable, not a human priest. Obviously some "churches" did indeed carry on that priestly tradition, and obviously tried to replace Israel. The Reformation just repackedged that point into their doctrine. Now many are just confused. Yes, Israel no longer represents God, no the church did not become some governmental body to replace Israel. Each individual is accountable to God, not accountable to some human hierarchy. No, it is not wrong to have church leadership. It is wrong to get lazy and let that leadership take over one's life in a works based phenomenon. Then some theology is declaring and defining one's salvation, instead of relying on one's own individual responsibility. The 6th Seal is the end for the church since Adam's disobedience.

The Trumpets mark the end of National Israel, as now God will personally step in and be King. The 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's flesh, period. God also throws a caveat into the mix called the 7 Thunders, but then tells John not to write them down and include them in the book. So God has a third group besides the church and Israel, and there is nothing we can do or say to change that fact. Yet no one seems to want to incorporate the 7 Thunders into their eschatological narrative. So not sure how they can have their own chronological order all set to go, when they do not even accept John's chronological order, nor even all the facts.

 

[dad]

You can’t take one part literal and not the other to fit your theory. Similar to what Pre-TB does with their theft in various passages. Ie. They’ll borrow 1 taken and 1 left as a rapture but then they say there is no rapture in Matthew 24 cause it’s for the Jews. Or that the rapture comes like a thief in the night. No wrong! The DotL comes like a thief, not the rapture.

We can take things as the spirit of the text demands. The bride of Christ is dressed in white and that is not because believers have no sex.
Adultery was often used to describe Israel that had forsaken God and worshipped other gods.

The text you allude to seems to fit both the Rapture or the return of Jesus.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So which does it fit best? We know the day more or less that Jesus returns. He gave the days from the time the abomination is set up. A better fit for that part would be the Rapture, which comes without warning like a thief in the night. Then there is the part about the timing --days before the flood. If we are likening the seven years period of tribulation to those days, then when is it? I suppose before the tribulation.

So I am not sure what you think was 'borrowed'. A better term would be 'understood'.

 

[dad]

The bride was raptured? Ok. Where is the great multitude? The bema seat? The reward? The archangel? The last trumpet? The kingdom? Sorry, none of those exist in Rev 4 or 5 and Christ cannot, will not leave Heaven till the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21 and I’m afraid nothing is restored 7 years beforehand. Good try though.

The bible specifies exactly where they were.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So that is in heaven. The Rapture may exist in Rev 4. Come up hither..remember? We also see the church vanish from the book here till mentioned in the end. Not sure what is not clear for you.

The restoration of ALL things is not then. Jesus has not even returned to earth here! That does not mean many believers are not there in heaven already.

 

[dad]

What does this mean?

"that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The first jump without thought is that killed means martyred. No! That was already covered with this point:

"them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

So what is this being killed entail?

Many believers have been killed for their faith and many will be during the tribulation. Nothing to do with the Rapture.

It is quite obvious that neither the OD nor Revelation clearly defines a rapture event. The wording in Revelation is about killing and being killed.

So what has that to do with the Rapture??

If you go by Paul's writings the rapture and glorification happens at the Second Coming.

Says who? Chapter and verse?

Yet in Revelation, those in heaven are glorified at the 5th Seal and the Second Coming is the 6th Seal. There is no "little season" in Paul's writings, but the same event.

No. The folks in heaven are coming back to earth to have their bodies raised. What they need to wait for before that happens is for the trib to be over so all that will be martyred will be martyred. Then Jesus returns with the saints. For the Bride who was already raptured, we already have our new body. We had our body raised from the dead if we died before the Rapture, and our living bodies raised if we were still alive. If people are killed in the tribulation, they would not have had their dead bodies raised from the dead yet would they?

Those killed on earth is the rapture event, though.

No. The Rapture is about rising the dead not killing anyone!

Because being killed in Revelation is the symbolism for shedding Adam's flesh and blood physical bodies. One could say, the rapture literally physically kills Adam's flesh and blood. But Paul states it as being changed, not killed.

We who are alive when He gathers us up in the air to be with Him are anything BUT killed!

Jesus declares physical death as not even tasting death, but Jesus never describes it as being changed.

When we have our bodies raised from the dead, or raised while alive in the Rapture, that IS changed!

So the being killed point in the 5th Seal is only the rapture to allow the church to meet in the air, and be glorified as one body.

No. Being killed has zero relation to being raised into the air and changed.

Personally I do not make a big issue out of the church being a separate group from obviously national and carnal Israel. Isreal will be dealt with after the Second Coming

They are dealt with in the tribulation and already saved by the second coming.

, and never was the church glorified to begin with.

Not yet, that happens when we are changed.

So the Seals do represent the removal of the church from the earth prior to God once again dealing directly with Israel.

They seem to deal with a lot more than that, and do not even deal with that at all. The seals are not opened for us in heaven. They are opened so that the king of the universe can rule on earth also.

The church was always a separate group in Israel and not corporate Israel.

Right, that is why we are Raptured, not them. (except the saved ones)

So the church did not take over for Israel, because that would mean the Law would keep going.

They did take over preaching and reaching the world and knowing God. Israel lost it's place. It will be restored in the end, but it is like it's history was placed on pause after they killed their Savior.
God hits the unpause button for the last seven years.

There was no replacement.

I have no wish to be Israel or replace them. They have their place. God certainly could not use them to reach the world since they killed Jesus though, and He did use the church.

The Trumpets mark the end of National Israel, as now God will personally step in and be King.

He does rule them and dwell with them after they get saved.

 

[Keraz]

The bible specifies exactly where they were.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So that is in heaven. The Rapture may exist in Rev 4. Come up hither..remember? We also see the church vanish from the book here till mentioned in the end. Not sure what is not clear for you.

The restoration of ALL things is not then. Jesus has not even returned to earth here! That does not mean many believers are not there in heaven already.

Revelation 7 is a prophecy about entirely earthly events. It sets an earthly scene in the first 3 verses and never changes location.
The vast throng of people are those Christians who stood firm in their faith during the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The great ordeal mentioned in verse 14.

Jesus will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1 say. They wave earth grown palm branches.

Revelation 7:14-17 is about Eternity, proved by how God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

The 'rapture to heaven' is false teaching, heaven is never mentioned in Rev 7. Being in heaven then, is just a wrong assumption.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The bible specifies exactly where they were.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So that is in heaven. The Rapture may exist in Rev 4. Come up hither..remember? We also see the church vanish from the book here till mentioned in the end. Not sure what is not clear for you.

The restoration of ALL things is not then. Jesus has not even returned to earth here! That does not mean many believers are not there in heaven already.

There is also a come up hither in Rev 11. But the John is never himself spiritualized as the church universal anywhere in scripture.

The church is the saints. The Ekklesia isn’t mentioned in 10 NT books. With your same logic, those books have nothing to do with the church. They’re absent right? Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude and not until Ch. 16 in Romans! No church there? But saints are used…Hmmm

If Christ, our blessed Lord, leaves Heaven and meets us in the air…he cannot do so till all is restored and not 1 thing is restored in a Pre-TB timeline 7 years beforehand.

We are never promised Heaven. Please show me a verse that says we are promised Heaven or that at the resurrection, we go to heaven with that word “heaven” in the phrase. We are promised paradise on earth. We are promised the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven and we are promised to reign on Earth.

I’m more interested in what scripture says, not guess work and ideas of man that scripture invalidates. So many Teachers of the law today, blinded by their own inclinations. Christ will come to earth to reign over his kingdom. That is the restoration and the time we are judged and rewarded 2 Timothy 4:1, Acts 3:21, Revelation 11:18
But I already know your response, though I’d hope I would not.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I see Jesus returning to end the troubles of Jacob. So wrath can't be after.

Exactly

That could be. However, it is also the wrath of God. And it is world wide, not limited to Israel

He said the Seals were the 70th week, no just a small part of the 70th week, right before God's Wrath Fall. It is like you or I taking 7 locks off of a book today or a binder in order to find out what's in a will so to speak. I really do not know how people for so many moons have not been able to discern that Seals are wax signets that close shut a message, that is their one and only purpose. Signet Seals keep messages shup up until all are off !!

The Jews were promised to live in the promised land. After Jesus returns, we are told He gathers them from everywhere to go there. He rules from there also. There are lots of promises to them about that time and how it will be here.

Exactly, it is called The Kingdom Age. "Thy will be done, thy Kingdom Come". This was about Jesus' coming 1000 year reign, which I now must admit, just thought of this, may not be a 1000 years because 1000 is 10 x 10 x 10, and it could just be pointing unto Jesus reign on earth, this one and the next one, for eternity, but I assume in this one its 1000 years because Satan has ruled mankind for 6000 years and thus 1000 years will be a Sabbath so to speak showing the earths at rest from the evil tyrant Satan, thus it will be juxtaposed against Satan's wickedness, murders, etc. vs. Jesus reign of peace. This will be the final nail in the trial/judgment of Satan so to speak.

The wrath is over when He comes and destroys His enemies. It is peace then.

Exactly.

Right. I would think that He gathers us together before the Tribulation.

2 Thess. 2 is about the pre trib rapture. I have a blog showing the Falling Away simply means The Departure [of the Church] from a STANDING on this earth. Not from THE FAITH which is never mentioned in the whole chapter. It points back to verse 1, a gathering into Crist Jesus BEFORE the DOTL arrives. (God's Wrath)

OK, so you think that when we are Raptured the sun will go dark, and moon will turn red, and the stars all fall. That would be quite a world people are left with for the seven years.

"Light" claims to be Pre Trib but does't seen to understand that all of the 70th week is troubles, not the just Greatest Ever Troubles. ALL TIME on earth is tribulation, Jesus said so in John 16:33, so Pre Trib has to happen pre 70th week, the Bride and Groom always spends 7 days (years) in the Wedding Chambers. Jesus used the Jewish Wedding Customs over and over to explain these concepts.

When He returns all Israel will be saved actually.

If Jesus came down to rescue the USA from our current wickedness and wiped out 2/3 of these wicked peoples in our nation, in so wiping the 2/3 out would he not be saving the USA in full but not the wicked men? The bible tells us that 2/3 of Israel will be cut-off, so he is not saving ALL Israel as in the people, but saving men and women from all 12 tribes who repent Israel, thus Abrahams SEED is saved, not all Jews. God/Jesus will not accept any man or woman who does not come unto God by FAITH ALONE before Jesus shows up, Abraham was made righteous because he BELIVED God, we are all made righteous by our simple Faith, God doesn't change that at the end, only those who come unto Christ just before the DOTL will be saved, I guess some could come after God's Wrath starts and just become Martyrs, but it will be few and far between.

That is clearly before Jesus returns in the tribulation.

Exactly, "Lights TIMINGS" are always way off, as I have told him over many years.

No. There will be an innumerable multitude from everywhere.

There will be others saved during the 70th week, most JUST BEFORE Gods Wrath falls, but the innumerable multitude, which I think is actually called the Great Multitude, if In am referencing the same passage, are not from the 70th week, nor can they be, Jesus SPECIFICALLY tells the Martyrs under the Altar at the 6th Seal that they will not get vengeance unto all of their brothers have died in like manner as they have, he then gives them their White Robes signifying they have fulfilled their duties, but they must REST for season (till the A.C.'s 42 months of rule is over). Then in Rev. 20:4 we see the Martyrs who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast being judged only AFTER Jesus' Second Coming, so that Multitude from all nations CAN NOT be from the 70th week, and are as I stated before, ONLY the Church Age Tribulation Saints. We can't just accept contradictions, Christians today just refuse to dig in and work out these seeming contradictions, which are really just us THINKING WRONG, God is never contradicting Himself.

Look at Dan. 7:11 where Gabriel tells Daniel that the Beast will be KILLED and his body DESTROYED and then he is cast into hell fire......and then look at Rev. 19:20 where God says that Jesus will take the False Prophet and Beast and throw both of them ALIVE into the pits of hell.

Is there a contradiction there? No, they will both be killed and thrown into hell as Gabriel told Daniel !! WHAT? Some might say, LOOK at that contradiction!! This is why I always loved getting these Atheist trick questions which I used to get in their forums (into the den of lions I go). I would study, answer, then destroy their stupefying hopes that God is not real (LOL). Anyway, they are killed and thrown into hell, all men MUST DIE ONCE, then be Judged, the only difference is the rest of the Wicked are allowed to rest in their graves for at least a 1000 more years, some have already been there 2 or 3 thousand years, just like those Raptured at the Trump will come forth from their graves. We never truly die, we were created in God's Image, thou will not SURELY DIE, remember that Satan untruth? He was correct in his half truth, the body died but the Soul was still eternal, thus in Rev. 19:20 God is speaking in eternal terms, God never allows those two to REST but throws them alive (in the spiritual sense) straight into hellfire. Contradiction solved.

That is talking about the world being ripe to be thrown into the Tribulation/wrath of God.

The Winepress of God's Wrath in Rev. 14:17-20 is the same Wine-press as seen in Rev. 16:19, it is the same as Armageddon which is seen in Rev. 19:17, it is the same as the 7th Trump in Rev. 11.

No. You can't support that claim.

Correct, only those with the Mark of the Beast are tortured. There are both Jewish AND Gentile converts during the 70th week.

Us being those who accept Jesus before that final time, or as many call it, the church. That would not include the people saved IN the wrath of God/tribulation.

True....

God has a big attention span. There is also a multitude no man could number that are saved in that time.

The Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 but the Rapture happens Pre 70th week, and those Great Multitudes are of the Church Age Tribulations where millions died.

2000 is GREATER than 7 as in 2000>7.

Sorry but you are quite wrong there. The Jews will be saved in the end but so will untold millions of others.

Yes, 1/3 of the Jews will be saved, but only BEFORE the Trumps(God's Wrath falls) are sounded.

You see, I see that you have a lot of correct concepts. Just because you are not at my level on Eschatology doesn't mean I can't see the overall pattern where you get most things correct, heck most preachers say some of the same things you espouse, its like a trained seal, those preachers can't stop being trained seals on some things, its just ingrained in them that the 144,000 are SUPER PREACHERS even though the bible never espouses that concept.

God Bless

 

[Davy]

Jewish Christians from the tribes.
The main part of the thread was looking at prophesy, especially Eze 38 and 39

The meat of the Book of Ezekiel was written to, and about, the "house of Israel". Now if you had done your homework in study of Old Testament history, you would know who that "house of Israel" represents after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, in Solomon's day (1 Kings 11).

But instead, you are rebellious against God's Word, and seek to push your own word.

 

[Davy]

One third actually means one out of three.


Says who? He is talking about people of Israel. He says two thirds will die. Then the third left believe. When the people left alive (all Israel at the time) are saved, that will be all Israel getting saved.

The Zechariah 13 Scripture is very simple, IF... one will simply read it and heed it...

Zech 13:6-9
6 And one shall say unto him, "What are these wounds in thine hands?" Then he shall answer, "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Just Who might that above be about? Lord Jesus Who was wounded upon His cross. So already, this Scripture is pointing to later involving Christ's crucifixion.

7 Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.

That is even the prophecy of Jesus' disciples scattering to prevent being captured by the Romans during Christ's crucifixion. Smite the shepherd is a symbol for Christ's crucifixion. So these Zechariah 13 Scriptures have a CHRISTIAN theme all about it involving Lord Jesus Christ.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
KJV

If two thirds are cut off and die, and only one third left, then who might that one third left represent, since the previous verses were pointing DIRECTLY to JESUS CHRIST??!!

No brainer, the one third left who go through that fire (testing of the great tribulation), represent Christ's FAITHFUL CHURCH.

 

[Timtofly]

He did tell him there would be a seven year period in which everlasting righteousness would be brought in. That terrible time for the world is spoken about all over the bible. There is no reason to call it anything but God judging the world in wrath. That wrath culminates at the end, but the end of that period is not the only wrath!
No. Jesus is not last Tuesday, next Wednesday, last Friday, Halloween, or Valentine's day either! Jesus is a Person!
No, it states nothing of the silly sort.
Oh? Can you show the verse that says His ministry lasted 1260 days exactly?
No, you cannot, obviously. Even if you could, it says Messiah was killed even before that last seven years.
Who said He did?

The verse where God declared some fullness of Gentiles while He was here??

No. When Jesus comes back, there will be righteousness and peace etc. Why would we wait till the 1000 years were over for that?
They would be wrong.

You think everlasting righteousness and an end to sin has arrived on earth now? Seriously?
Let me get this straight. The 3.5 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days are not real. They can 'really' mean (insert any number you like to make up here)?

Jesus is the 70th week because He was on earth as Messiah for half of the 7 years and then cut off. Jesus was not cut off between the end of the 69th week and the start of the 70th week.

When Jesus was baptized the 70th week began. When Jesus ascended, the 70th week was put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles was complete. The Second Coming happens when God declares the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. It is the end of the church harvest. No more church will ever be harvested again, ever. Then the 70th week ends with Jesus as Prince on the earth. When the 7th Trumpet starts sounding that means the 70th week is over. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding those 6 things become reality from Daniel 9:24.

Those promises last the whole 1,000 years. They don't start at the end of the 1,000 years.

I don't think so. If we are Raptured before that period starts or as it starts, then we WILL know when the first seal is opened! Why would you think that would be way over in the middle of the seven years?
False. It is for Israel, yes, as a remnant will ve saved. However the church having been Raptured will not be here. There will be untold millions of new believers though, and we can say it is for them also.

That is where the Rapture connects the dots.
They will weep as for an only son when they see Him actually.

No. It says a third of Israel will remain alive maybe. Not that only 1/3 of people on earth will be saved!

Now..yes, they need to believe in Jesus. (that is joining the church of course)

Every believer has absolute guaranteed assurance of salvation.
There is no chance involved. Prophesy reports how many Jews will make it, but no chance is involved. Just choice.

You made that up. It does not say the virgins are part of some church or Israel.
Why just Israel?

The Second Coming and rapture happen at the 6th Seal, at the same time. There is no separate rapture from the Second Coming. The first 4 Seals have already been opened at that point. The 6th Seal is when Jesus as Prince stops this invasion of Jerusalem, and Jesus sets up His glorious throne in Jerusalem at that point. Then the 7th Seal is opened. And after that the Trumpets sound to gather all of Israel out of all nations to judge Israel as sheep and goats. Jesus does not set up his throne on earth to judge the church. The church is all in Paradise. It is to judge Israel. Then during the 7 Thunders, Jesus judges the remainder of the earth after the church and Israel have been removed from the earth.

 

[dad]

Revelation 7 is a prophecy about entirely earthly events. It sets an earthly scene in the first 3 verses and never changes location.

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

I have no idea how this sounds like earth to you. Maybe sell maps so we can do tours of His temple and throne? Oh, I guess you couldn't since no one has ever come out of the great tribulation yet.

The vast throng of people are those Christians who stood firm in their faith during the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The great ordeal mentioned in verse 14.

Jesus will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1 say. They wave earth grown palm branches.

Revelation 7:14-17 is about Eternity, proved by how God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

The 'rapture to heaven' is false teaching, heaven is never mentioned in Rev 7. Being in heaven then, is just a wrong assumption.

This word salad makes no sense, and does not belong in any serious bible discussion.

 

[dad]

There is also a come up hither in Rev 11. But the John is never himself spiritualized as the church universal anywhere in scripture.

Now that come up hither is at the very end of the tribulation. They have finished their testimony. This is also calling the dead to be raised to life, these two witnesses to be precise. That is not before the wrath. Nor are the people raised here part of the church.

The church is the saints.

No. The old testament believers were not the church. Nor are the new believers in the tribulation after the Rapture. Nor are the new believers in the 1000 years!

The Ekklesia isn’t mentioned in 10 NT books.

You could not say the same for salvation. The church or the Bride is just a name for people who are saved by Jesus before the end of the world era. That does not mean these are the only people to ever believe.

If Christ, our blessed Lord, leaves Heaven and meets us in the air…he cannot do so till all is restored and not 1 thing is restored in a Pre-TB timeline 7 years beforehand.

Who made that rule up?? If He could never come till all was perfect here, how would He ever come to make it perfect!? Also, He is not coming to earth in the Rapture, we are going up to the air.

We are never promised Heaven.

He ascended into heaven. He went there to prepare a place for us. Not sure where you dredged up such a strange notion. Us living in New Jerusalem does not stop us from ruling on earth of course.

Christ will come to earth to reign over his kingdom.

The earth will then be His kingdom. That does not mean the place in heaven He prepared for those who love Him will disappear. God does not dwell on earth with men till after the 1000 years.

That is the restoration and the time we are judged and rewarded 2 Timothy 4:1, Acts 3:21, Revelation 11:18
But I already know your response, though I’d hope I would not.

Thos who love Him are judged for works and rewards. Jesus did not die for nothing. The restoration of all things, if that is what you are thinking of, is when the earth and heavens are made new and our city comes down to earth as far as I know. After all, if the earth were totally restored already, why would He need to make it new?

 

[dad]

He said the Seals were the 70th week, no just a small part pf the 70th week

Chapter and verse?

Exactly, it is called The Kingdom Age. "Thy will be done, thy Kingdom Come". This was about Jesus' coming 1000 year reign, which I now must admit, just thought of this, may not be a 1000 years because 1000 is 10 x 10 x 10, and it could just be pointing unto Jesus reign on earth,

Except that at the end of that time the earth and heaven are made new and the old ones pass forever away and all the dead are raised to be judged. You should not get so lost in playing with numbers that you lose track of reality.

Light claims to be Pre Trib but understand al of the 70th week is troubles, not the Greatest Ever Troubles, but ALL TIME on earth is tribulation, Jesus said so in John 16:33, so Pre Trib has to happen pre 70th week, the Bride and Groom always spends 7 days (years) in the Wedding Chambers. Jesus used the Jewish Wedding Customs over and over to explain these concepts.

If Jesus came down tp rescue the USA from our current wickedness and wiped out 2/3 of these wicked peoples in our nation, in so wiping the 2/3 out would he not be saving the USA in full but not the wicked men? The bible tells us that 2/3 of Israel will be cut-off, so he is not saving ALL Israel as in the people

All who are alive when they see and receive Jesus. All Israel will then be saved.

, but saving men and women from all 12 tribes who repent, thus Abrahams SEED is saved, not all Jews.

Abraham's seed by faith is one thing. The seed by birth is another. The seed of Abraham by faith are believers in Jesus, and they are gone by the Tribulation. So you could say that the Bride of Christ in heaven at that time is still the seed of Abraham by faith. But they are not Israel. They are not the people who are children of Jacob on earth that are not saved.

I guess some could come after God's Wrath starts and just become Martyrs, but it will be few and far between.

That depends what you call His wrath. If the seven years is all wrath, then gazillions are saved then. (a lot)

There will be others saved during the 70th week, most JUST BEFORE Gods Wrath falls, but the innumerable multitude, which I think is actually called the Great Multitude, if In am referencing the same passage, are not from the 70th week, nor can they be, Jesus SPECIFICALLY tells the Martyrs under the Altar at the 6th Seal that they will nit get vengeance unto al of their brothers have died in like manner as they have, he then gives them their White Robes signifying they have fulfilled their duties, but they must REST for season (till the AC 42 months of rule is over).

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


So if those martyrs killed in the time of Tribulation were in heaven during the Trib, where would they be WHEN He returns to earth with His saints? Elementary. I see no reason why He would leave them in heaven and take only other saints! So, they will be where He is, right here at that time. They rule also with us. (the believers known as the church who were raptured before the tribulation, but are also here with Him then). One big happy family. The saved Jews also will be here of course, and a big part of it.

The Winepress of God's Wrath in Rev. 14:17-20 is the same Wine-press as seen in Rev. 16:19, it is the same as Armageddon which is seen in Rev. 19:17, it is the same as the 7th Trump in Rev. 11.

So Rev 14 talks about the harvest being ripe. That stage of wrath, the culmination, is called the winepress. That does not mean that is the only time wrath exists. That is the completion of it.

Yes, 1/3 of the Jews will be saved, but only BEFORE the Trumps(God's Wrath falls) are sounded.

Well, His plan was to keep His promises to them, so the exact timing near the End of that seven years doesn't matter so much. He gets it done.