Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

There does seem to be duel meanings of some of the same verses...

Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

And the next verse tells me that we Christians ARE kings already. It's like digging for the finest gold.

Revelation 1:5-6
"And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Right, we should know the times and seasons. That helps us to 'look up' for our redemption is very near.

 

[The Light]

So you see the seals as events that happen prior to the trumpets and vials. OK. Kind of a build up to them.

No. The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You must think this verse is a prophesy then, rather than something stated as happening?

No. It's all prophecy but it all happens.

Trying to get your opinion straight here. You think the Rapture is after the sixth seal, and then comes the wrath, right?

I think the rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The gathering from heaven and earth happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. This is the second harvest where the 12 tribes of Israel across the earth are raptured. Then the wrath of God begins. In the following verses we see that the gathering happens before the day of the Lord.
2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

OK, so then you say that all the six seals are the tribulation period of seven years.

Yes, the tribulation is over when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event happens at the 6th seal.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

When do you think the fullness of the Gentiles comes?

When the rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened.

Ok so after the tribulation when Jesus has returned (obviously He returns right after the tribulation) you see all the trumpets and vials happening. Correct?

Yes. AFTER THE TRIBULATION which is over at the 6th seal when the gathering occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

So now, after the sixth seal, you think the church from heaven returns to the air above earth and gets together with a newly Raptured saved Israel.

Yes the Church returns to the clouds above the earth. The harvest from the earth is the 12 tribes that are across the earth. not the Jews in the nation of Israel. The Jews that flee to a place of protection remain on earth through the wrath of God. Only part of Israel has their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Those whose eyes are opened are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.
Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The only saved on earth at this time, you think will be Jews?

The only saved on earth during the wrath of God will be the Jews in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection. They do not yet have the testimony of Jesus Christ, but will see Him in the Clouds at His return at the 6th seal. Remember how I told you that the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. Then in Rev 13 and 14 we are given more information that happens in the seals. So, in Rev 14 we get another view of the Coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Here is the gathering from heaven and earth when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Notice that at the end of Rev 14 we see those that are cast into the wrath of God. Then the vials happen which are another view of Gods wrath.

So now you relegate the wrath of God to a few areas near Israel. Right?

No, the wrath of God is world wide. But the only believers on earth when the wrath of God begins are those that flee the nation of Israel and go to a place of protection that has been prepared. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.
1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is more proof that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins as Gods people are not appointed to wrath. The only believers on earth will be those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection. They will now be believers as they will have seen Jesus coming in the clouds at the 6th seal. All others on earth will probably have the mark.

So all the trumpets happen after Jesus returns, and all wrath is limited to some sections of Israel in your view. Therefore after Jesus returns to earth, you think things like this will be going on

Revelation 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The wrath of God is world wide. The only ones that will have the seal of God and will not be tormented for 5 months are those that fled in the nation of Israel to a place of protection.

So now you think that vials and trumpets are very much related after all. OK

If I said differently, I am unaware of it.

It does not seem to make sense that there are long periods of hell on earth after Jesus returns with wrath being poured out. It also does not ring true that the wrath of God refers only to little Israel.
Jesus even mentioned men's hearts would fail them in fear of those things coming on the earth. (not for fear of things going on in Israel)

The wrath of God is world wide.
Summary. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5. Then the seals are opened and God turns his attention to the 12 tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman, Israel, that keep the commandments of God and then will have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The 12 tribes have 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the great tribulation happens and Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. There is a rapture from the earth as we know that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, because there are 144,000 first fruits. Then the wrath of God begins.

 

[ewq1938]

Then the great tribulation happens and Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. There is a rapture from the earth as we know that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, because there are 144,000 first fruits. Then the wrath of God begins.

Which proves the wrath of God does not start until the 7th trump.

 

[Davy]

Why get hung up on the word Jew? We all know that Israel is about people descended from 'Jews' whatever you want to call them. Prophesy is also. You seem intent on waving away a Jewish reality in Israel for some reason.

I'm not hung up on that title Jew, I may even be part Jewish for all I know. I'm relying on Biblical and historical fact. But you rely on men's traditions and pop fantasies. The idea that all Israelites are Jews is not factual history. And since you don't care why, nor about the Bible history of the two houses, it shows you have a dislike of history and would prefer to make up your own.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

If Israel worshipped God, He would immediately destroy all their enemies. No one would be invading them!

Not so brother, we can CLEARLY SEE when they Repent and then what happens next. I am not going to be or trying to be hard on you, not knowing is OK, hearing and then not perceiving the Spirts voice is bad, I see it all the time, they them come out with the RCC/Pope stuff of Armstrong, by way of the Church of England/etc. etc. which led to the Irish and English hate of each other (sad) to the point the IRA bombed people for years etc. Or the Islamic angle, or the Woman in Rev. 12 is a Sign of the skies (which would be of the Horoscope, LOL). So, I see those who can't perceive and smh, but I sense you have a greater ability to perceive because of where you are on most things already, if that makes sense. So, I am not being too harsh, if a guy is new to calculus it takes a while to catch on, it doesn't make him a nominal intellectual per se. So, I take the time and effort to show you.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die;(During the AC reign BELOW in Zech. 14) but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire(TRIBULATION PRIOD), and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So above, 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and in the VERY NEXT VERSE (Below) we see the Anti-Christ conquering Israel in verses 1 and 2 and then in verses 3 and 4, onward we see Jesus wipes them all out 1260 days later, because we know The Beast rules for 1260 days, God couldn't write in depth books on those 1260 days in every instance, he does that in Revelation, here (Below) he just points out both instances, Israel gets Conquered, AND God defeats them as he lands on the Mount of Olives 1260 days later.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh,(After Israel REPENTS) and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then (1260 days later, after verse 2) shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So, the 2/3 must be CUT-OFF brother, only 1/3 repent, this is the 490 week(year) Judgment against Israel designed to get them to Repent, thus they are the Wheat and Wheat has to be crushed before it can be sifted !! Amen !! Barley doesn't have to be crushed, the Church is the Barley, each have their own first-fruits, as do the Grapes, which are placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath. So, instead the Jews are led by God unto the Petra/Bozrah area, and PROTECTED just like when coming out of Egypt, but their mission is the Kingdom Age, they must remain on earth to repopulate the Kingdom Age of the master Jesus. But the 2/3 who refuse to repent also has to be killed/CUT-OFF, they have refused to repent, so the 70th week of judgment has to be fulfilled in full, then comes the Kingdom Age brother.

God is judging Israel, and the whole world at the exact same time, there are many wicked men on earth who will die, thus the Barley/Church is taken to heaven, Jesus says their mission is over as Matt. 24:14 says, when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world. But Israel's Calling is "The Kingdom Age", they have to remain on earth, unless they are pre trib Messianic Christians, then they will marry the Lamb in heaven like us, but the Disciples will still help Jesus rule over Israel, I read that the other day, or I should say someone pointed that out to me. So yes, God could miraculously take all of the 3-5 million to Heaven, like He did those living at the Rapture (PRO-TIP: We simply DIE at the Rapture and go to Heaven as spirit men just like those raised from the grave, so 1 billion of the 2 billion supposed Christians make the wedding or "5 of the 10 brides") BUT....the Jews have an original calling, remember in Romans 11? Paul says God's calling is without repentance, Israel has to set up a Kingdom Age where God (Jesus) dwells with them (the Tabernacles Feast so to speak, being fulfilled). That is why they are protected in the Petra/Bozrah region for1260 days, but Judgment has to happen, God is going to wipe out their enemies and His, but Israel's 2/3 who refuse to repent also have to be wiped out. Judgment has to be finished in full before Jesus takes over, all 490 years of judgment. Amen.

The daily sacrifice was a historical thing. It refers to something specific. They sacrificed animals showing how that Jesus would come one day and save them. It happened at a certain time and a certain way. The time of Jacob's trouble is the time God uses to get them to repent and be saved. We would not see them already repented before it starts!

By the time of the 1335, they do indeed REPENT before the 1290 event !! That is the whole point. Jesus was the END to sacrifice(s), the Daily's were only pointing unto Jesus Christ, thus once Jesus has come and died for our sins, we no longer need or use the substitute as Gal 3:23-25 says.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We no longer need a Sacrifice, Jesus was/is our once and for all Sacrifice, he is thus our High Priest in Heaven now as we speak. So, Gabriel and Jesus (Man in Linen) were not speaking about some "Evil Meat Sacrifice" being taken away. They were referring the Jews who had REPENTED via the Two-witnesses preaching's, and this coming False Prophet STOPPING those Jews who have repented from worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God. In Dan. 9:21 we see Daniel was offering a Daily Oblation (Sacrifice), it was a twice a day TRIBUTE unto God, no meat sacrifice, but a tribute to Yeshua (which means Salvation) thus every time we see Salvation in the Old Testament in a personhood, its speaking about Jesus (Yeshua). THE SACRIFICE by the end times(NOW) is Jesus, the Messiah !! And 1/3 of the Jews have accepted him as such. Amen, glory to God. He was not speaking about a Meat Sacrifice.

The blasphemy of still sacrificing animals shows they did not accept the Messiah. Why did you think God allowed them to go through all this?

No, it shows you are not understanding what Gabriel and Jesus are speaking about brother. The Jewish High Priest gone rogue stops Jesus Worship at the 1290 event. You have just always ASSUMED it was a Meat Sacrifice.

I guess we'll find out one day.

No !! I already understand it, the holy Spirit never lies unto me brother. I understand His yeses and His no's. Its very clear unto me. I have never been a person who just guesses, I dig and dig and pray, and I refuse to accept maybes, I wrestle with God for answers until I get an answer.

They all do fit. The issue is how

That is easy, IF one lets go of preconceived understandings and follows the simple understanding. Each number is that many days UNTIL the 2nd Coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS. They are not different, the Symmetry is the same in both questions, God is vague on purpose with the 1290, and the 1335. Because of the High Priest issue, but once I understood what it meant, everything in the bible, as per end times prophecy, opened up unto me, all of the end time timelines were in my grasp. This is how the Seals opened up unto me, I knew that the 144,000 were simply the Jews fleeing Judea because of when they come to Repent, just before the Wrath of God Falls at the 1260 Event.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

If that were the case, that could be one of the reasons God woulda coulda shoulda done that. However, your speculation is nothing more than a guess. We do not know who the false prophet or beast are yet. Period. Nor do we know their titles or jobs before they rise to be the beast and false prophet.

No, I did a reverse analysis, I found out THE ANSWER of the Numbers, THEN I analyzed it myself, I asked the Lord, why did you only tell us the 1290 and 1335 and were just vague with with everything, so I think the things through. No one ever wants to LISTEN to God, I mean Moses goes up on the Mount to get the 10 Commandments after God had delivered Israel from the Egyptians and they were making graven images to worship, LOL. I am open to hearing God, I don't assume things men have passed down are correct, so God has a chance at me HEARING Him!! That is why I hear Him when others don't in many cases, I am not special, I just refuse to allow tunnel vision to keep me from seeing the facts. I don't block what He is trying to tell me by presupposing I already know it all !! I used to, LOL.

I do not know their names, I do know who they will be as per their titles, I have a 6 year old blog showing where the Anti-Christ MUST be born, where he MUST come to power, and what his blood line MUST be. The False Prophet comes out of THE EARTH, which always means Israel to those of us in the know on Bible Prophecy, PLUS.....(this is why the NUMBERS are so key) the Anti-Christ does not come to power until the 1260, so it can not be a Gentile via the 1290 Event, it can ONLY be a Jew, and he has two horns like a Lamb (he's of the Priesthood) but speaks as a Dragon (he's of Satan). Thus the False Prophet can only be a Jewish High Priest. When I realized this I started looking for a LIKE TYPE in the bible, in History, and as I went over my Daniel 11 Exegesis I saw Jason in a new light, he was the EXACT LIKENESS of the coming False Prophet.

My Blog on the Anti-Christ......... prophecyunvieled.home.blog/2019/08/11/the-birthplace-of-the-anti-christ-revealed/

I copied it to that site in 2019, Disqus wanted to shut down conservatives before the 2020 Election, these libs are sad juvenile people.

Of course the people need to heed when that time comes. How does this support anything you have claimed?

I made an argument against one of your arguments. That simple really, go back and see why I stated that via your original argument and you will have the answer.

Maybe. But that is opinion and does not support your claims such as that the false prophet must be a high priest and etc etc etc.

No, it is FACTS, you can say opinion all you want, it is FACTS. If you can't see how everything I stated matches up with scriptures AND the TIMELINES that is on you, not me.

Right, and He said John was Elijah if we could receive it. Yes there will come a great prophet, two actually. So? How does that help your claims?

No Jesus didn't, again, that is you and others misunderstanding the bible, read Luke chapter one, Gabriel the Angel tells us that John has come in the SPIRIT of Elijah, men are not born twice, we all now that. The passage you are speaking of is Jesus using an axiom so to speak to talk about John the Baptist, in other words, he is saying that Elijah will do nothing different when he comes than John did, and that John was a GREAT MAN, but even though he preached repentance and Israel refused to repent, he was not a failure, the time was not right for Israel to repent. When Elijah comes Israel will repent. When people say Elijah was reborn I am like, that never has nor will happen to any man !! People confuse things all the time, read Luke ch. 1, Gabriel clearly says John came in the Spirit of Elijah, preaching repentance.

I make no claims, I put forth truths. Tunnel vision will block truths however.

So their death would not affect the whole world much. Why then does all the world party and cheer and celebrate with a new holiday when they die?? Your claims do not meet even the minimum standards.

That is very easy, who brought the 10 plagues in the Egyptians eyes and in Israel's eyes? Moses, EVERY Plague that falls on earth the Two-witnesses pray down.

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

So, Rev. 11 starts BEFORE the 1260(Rev 8 asteroid/DOTL) like I stated at the 1335. They PRAY DOWN the Asteroid Judgments, (First four Trumps are all one asteroid strike) they pray down the first Woe (Apollyon is released from the bottomless pit) they pray down the 2nd Woe where 200 million angels or 10,000 x 10,000, (which really just means the Complete Hosts of Heaven) slay 1/3 of all men who have the Mark of the Beast. Then they die at the 2nd Woe as Rev. 11 shows BUT......They have already prayed for the 3rd Woe to fall, that is why in Rev. 11 it states the 3rd Woe cometh quickly and that is why the whole world celebrates wen they finally die. They have had LIVE WORLD WIDE TV Production on them as they prayed for the Asteroid to hit just off the California Coast IMHO, then they pray for the Bottomless pit to be opened and men will desire for death but will not get it, if they have the Mark of the Beast. They then pray that 1/3 of all those with the mark of the Beast will be slain by Angels of Heaven, and it starts happening as soon as they pray, so of course people are happy when they die !!

I did not say they didn't come to pray down Judgments on the whole word AND the 2/3 Jews who refused to repent, I did say they came ONLY to get the 1/3 Jews to repent, if you could understand the lingo you would see that in Rev. 11:1-3. They WITNESSES unto the Jews to get them to repent, they WITNESSES unto the whole world like Moses did unto Pharaoh in order to show God's Judgments are real, and at hand, but the Angel is the one who preachers the Gospel unto the whole world, as shown in Rev. 14:6-7, not the Two-witnesses.

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

So, they are sent to ONLY get Israel to repent, they are also sent to pray down JUDGMENTS onto the whole world, but not to get them to Repent, that is the Angels Job seen in Rev. 14. You see its harder for them who helps bring forth judgments onto mankind to be heard in a different light, so its the Angels job to preach repentance. Just the facts sir.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED..............

If we look at 1260 and then we see it is 75 days more, some might call that more days. You can call is strawberry custard if you like.

Truly this is a nonsensical statement. It's very EASY to see what the numbers are, especially when someone explains it, unless you are absorbed in WRONG THINK that one refuses to let go of. You can't deny any argument I make because its always biblical FACTS. Anyone that thinks God uses TWO DIFFERENT SYMMETRIES in the exact same chapter just does not have a chance at ever understanding end time prophecy, BUT......We have to preserve that whole "The Anti-Christ IS the 1290" WRONG THINK don't we? I mean believing an untruth for all of those years is embarrassing, I guess, I let it go after 30 years, I am OK with being proven wrong by God, I love it, which is why I don't get stuck on Men's Traditions. And thus I can see things other just can not fathom.

Speculation. All you know is how to repeat the word know, and think that this means something. Even if it happened that you somehow were right on one point, it would not be because you knew. So let's look at that. Let's say there are 75 days before the Great Tribulation starts and the abomination of desolation is placed. So? What exactly is it you think must happen on the 75th day before?? Seems to me anyone could insert any number of pet theories in there if they wanted.

FACTS......that you can't grasp, are still FACTS. The 1290 is the AoD and Sacrifice (Jesus Worship) being taken away. The 1335 (75 days before the AC/Beast comes to power) is the Two-witnesses showing up, or THE BLESSING! Israel turns back unto God, of course that's THE 1335 BLESSING !!

Thus the 1260 TMELINES are key, the Two-witnesses DIE FIRST, thus if both have 1260 day ordained office on this earth they also have to SHOW UP FIRST, the Two-witnesses thus are the 1335 which comes 75 days BEFORE the 1260 event and 45 days before the 1290 event. FACTS.

Speculation. In other words you are limiting why God allows something to your pet theory. Maybe He has other reasons! You can't say 'see, they died, and it is only to show my convoluted number scheme was correct'.

FACTS.....They have Glorious Bodies and are raised tom Heaven 3.5 days later, you can't kill Angels nor Prophets with Glorious bodies, as seen they could not be killed for 1260 days, nor even touched. So, they only die so we can juxtapose their 1260 DAY TIMELINES against the Beasts timeline, what is amusing is the fact that they both have 1260 day ORDAINED from God TIMELINES, which ought to tell you that it is God's PLAN !!

So what? Never heard of him and who cares? That has no relation to the OP or Tribulation etc.

So you don't care about a TYPE False Prophet, amusing.

That has...what..to do with the end period discussed here?

He is the TYPE to come False Prophet living under the TYPE Anti-Christ in Antiochus Epiphanes.

Go ahead an pat yourself on the back all you like.

I will, when God gifts me I am gleeful, we understanding because of hard work and prayer I am very happy.

What is it about 75 days before the Great Trib begins that you think is so vital?

The TWO WITNESSES SHOW UP (The BLESSING in Dan. 12:12) BEFORE the Day of the Lord arrives, this is how Israel Repents and then knows to Flee Judea at the 1290, which is 30 days BEFORE the 1260, but the 1335 is 75 days BEFORE the 1260. This gives us an understanding of all of the TIMELINES in the whole book of Revelation.

 

[dad]

No. The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

I see Jesus returning to end the troubles of Jacob. So wrath can't be after.

I think the rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

That could be. However, it is also the wrath of God. And it is world wide, not limited to Israel

The gathering from heaven and earth happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. This is the second harvest where the 12 tribes of Israel across the earth are raptured.

The Jews were promised to live in the promised land. After Jesus returns, we are told He gathers them from everywhere to go there. He rules from there also. There are lots of promises to them about that time and how it will be here.

Then the wrath of God begins.

The wrath is over when He comes and destroys His enemies. It is peace then.

In the following verses we see that the gathering happens before the day of the Lord.
2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Right. I would think that He gathers us together before the Tribulation.

Yes, the tribulation is over when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Of course.

This event happens at the 6th seal.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
When the rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened.

OK, so you think that when we are Raptured the sun will go dark, and moon will turn red, and the stars all fall. That would be quite a world people are left with for the seven years.

Yes. AFTER THE TRIBULATION which is over at the 6th seal when the gathering occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

The gathering? He comes DOWN so any gathering is here.

Yes the Church returns to the clouds above the earth. The harvest from the earth is the 12 tribes that are across the earth. not the Jews in the nation of Israel. The Jews that flee to a place of protection remain on earth through the wrath of God. Only part of Israel has their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Those whose eyes are opened are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

When He returns all Israel will be saved actually.

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

That is clearly before Jesus returns in the tribulation.

The only saved on earth during the wrath of God will be the Jews in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection.

No. There will be an innumerable multitude from everywhere.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Notice that at the end of Rev 14 we see those that are cast into the wrath of God. Then the vials happen which are another view of Gods wrath.

That is talking about the world being ripe to be thrown into the Tribulation/wrath of God.

No, the wrath of God is world wide. But the only believers on earth when the wrath of God begins are those that flee the nation of Israel and go to a place of protection that has been prepared. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

No. You can't support that claim.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Us being those who accept Jesus before that final time, or as many call it, the church. That would not include the people saved IN the wrath of God/tribulation.

The wrath of God is world wide. The only ones that will have the seal of God and will not be tormented for 5 months are those that fled in the nation of Israel to a place of protection.

You can't support that.

Summary. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5. Then the seals are opened and God turns his attention to the 12 tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman, Israel, that keep the commandments of God and then will have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The 12 tribes have 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth.

God has a big attention span. There is also a multitude no man could number that are saved in that time.

Then the great tribulation happens and Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. There is a rapture from the earth as we know that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, because there are 144,000 first fruits. Then the wrath of God begins.

Sorry but you are quite wrong there. The Jews will be saved in the end but so will untold millions of others.

 

[dad]

I'm not hung up on that title Jew, I may even be part Jewish for all I know. I'm relying on Biblical and historical fact. But you rely on men's traditions and pop fantasies. The idea that all Israelites are Jews is not factual history. And since you don't care why, nor about the Bible history of the two houses, it shows you have a dislike of history and would prefer to make up your own.

God chooses 12,000 people from each tribe of Israel. You get that much? The nation of Israel is also attacked in the end. Right?

 

[ewq1938]

The nation of Israel is also attacked in the end. Right?

No.

 

[dad]

]

Not so brother, we can CLEARLY SEE when they Repent and then what happens next.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die;(During the AC reign BELOW) but the third shall be left therein.

That is not after they are saved. If they turn to Jesus He would destroy all their enemies right away! Just as He does do as soon as they receive Him in the end.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire(TRIBULATION PRIOD), and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So, above 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and in the VERY NEXT VERSE we see the Anti-Christ conquering Israel in verses 1 and 2

Not sure what you thought you saw in the verses. They are saying that 2/3 of them will die, but a third will be left and get saved. When they get saved is at the very end when they see Jesus come if I recall.

So, the 2/3 must be CUT-OFF brother, only 1/3 repent,

Right. The one third will be ALL Israel that gets saved in the end.


Since we do not agree on much, address the few issues

 

[dad]

No.

The armies gathered around Jerusalem then, what are they doing, planting farms?

 

[dad]

We have to preserve that whole "The Anti-Christ IS the 1290" WRONG THINK don't we?

No idea what you are talking about. When I think of the final evil leader 1290 or any other number is not what comes to mind.

Israel turns back unto God, of course that's THE 1335 BLESSING !!

The remnant will be saved. Associating that with 1335 is opinion.

Thus the 1260 TMELINES are key, the Two-witnesses DIE FIRST, thus if both have 1260 day ordained office on this earth they also have to SHOW UP FIRST, the Two-witnesses thus are the 1335 which comes 75 days BEFORE the 1260 event and 45 days before the 1290 event. FACTS.

They will show up. When we don't know. When they die we have some good idea. It is at the end of the 7 years.

FACTS.....They have Glorious Bodies an d are raised tom Heaven 3.5 days later, you can't kill Angels nor Prophets with Glorious bodies

If they had immortal bodies you could not kill them to begin with.

So you don't care about a TYPE False Prophet, amusing.

If someone made a sane case for some aspect of a historical figure resembling the false prophet we might look at it. Instead, to me your posts read something like this 'the 1260 and the 1375 must be showing that immortals can be killed because 1290 has to be special, and 144,000 has to be unreal, and boy, am I a genius'
Ridiculous twaddle

 

[Davy]

God chooses 12,000 people from each tribe of Israel. You get that much? The nation of Israel is also attacked in the end. Right?

All 144,000 are Christians. But only 3 tribes mentioned represented Jews of the "house of Judah".

In Ezekiel 38, the Israel dwelling in safety WITHOUT WALLS is being pointed to. The main part of the Book of Ezekiel was God sending His Word through Ezekiel to the TEN TRIBES in captivity a bit farther north in Assyria.

Ezek 3:1-5
1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.

2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
KJV

At that time, God had long before already split old Israel into two separate houses, and had scattered the ten northern tribes of Israel first out of the land. Then about 120 years, the house of Judah (Jews) also fell away to idols and God took them captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Ezekiel was in that later captivity to Babylon, like Daniel. But God told Ezekiel to go speak to the "house of Israel", which meant the ten tribes that God removed captive by the Assyrians and were captive a bit farther north of Babylon.

So you need to go study ALL the Book of Ezekiel to find out what all it is about and especially just WHO God sent it to, because prophecy to the "house of Israel" is not the same for the "house of Judah" (Jews). It is mostly New-Testament-only dwellers that are ignorant of this.

 

[Davy]

] That is not after they are saved. If they turn to Jesus He would destroy all their enemies right away! Just as He does do as soon as they receive Him in the end.



Not sure what you thought you saw in the verses. They are saying that 2/3 of them will die, but a third will be left and get saved. When they get saved is at the very end when they see Jesus come if I recall.


Right. The one third will be ALL Israel that gets saved in the end.


Since we do not agree on much, address the few issues

The idea that the one-third means only Jews like the false pre-trib rapture theory trib saints idea, is a leaven tradition of men. The one third represents Christ's faithful Church that is 'sealed' with God's seal to go through the great tribulation, and cannot be deceived.

 

[No Pre-TB]

However, it is also the wrath of God

The seals are the wrath of God?

What makes the seals wrath? How about, what demonstrates that they are not wrath.

1. Does God's wrath normally contain (the seals themselves) the contents of the scroll? Jesus opening a seal doesn't imply wrath at all. There is no verse that proves it. It only showed he was granted the ability to do it when mankind wasn't worthy. Breaking the seals allows its contents to be read and thereby known. If you read anything in Rev 4 and 5, understand that God gave all authority to Christ from the Old Covenant (which we see in Rev 4) to a New Covenant (in Rev 5) where the 7 spirits of God are first under God, and then Christ. It is describing the change of a new testator. A new covenant. He was worthy and given all power. It is a past event that John had to witness in order to explain a future event because its impossible to explain the trumpets if you dont explain the sealed 144k. And if you explain the sealed 144k, you have to explain the 6th seal call for his "orge". And if you explain the 6th seal, you must explain the other 5 and the scroll that is sealed and the one who was made worthy.
2. The 5th seal martyrs cry out to God asking when will he begin his vengeance. How is it wrath if they are asking when it'll come?
3. The 144k haven't been sealed yet. They are redeemed, the first fruits and are protected from wrath. If you make the seals wrath, then they go through God's wrath even though the word of the God cannot be revoked and he said they are under no condemnation.
4. The winds are held back from the fire that will go forth unto the earth after the seals are all opened. Implying that fire from Heaven (judgment) has not come yet in the seals.
5. The first 5 seals mimic the birth pangs which Christ said,
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

If we are told to not be troubled, why would a non troubled time be consider God's fiery wrath?
6. The first occurrence of the word for wrath doesnt exist till the 6th seal is opened and it describes his "Orge" anger (judgment) during the trumpets which is nothing like his out poured fiery wrath of "Thumos" in the bowls. Wrath doesnt exist in any of the seals. The coming "Orge" is why they hide in the rocks and the mountains and it is why the 144k are then to be sealed. If you read up on anything regarding God's wrath or anger, at least look up a correlation between the rocks falling, the 6th seal signs in heaven.
7. God has not risen up to commit judgment and declare his majesty till they hide in the rocks. Do a simple Bible word search for this.
8. The 24 Elders still hold the prayers of the saints BEFORE the seals are opened implying the saints are still on earth during the seals (Revelation 5:8) and that those prayers go up before God. No different then the Christians in the 5th seal which are called: the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

And these are only some of the reasons that exist. There are more...

 

[No Pre-TB]

God chooses 12,000 people from each tribe of Israel. You get that much? The nation of Israel is also attacked in the end. Right?

Where in all of scripture does God command believers redeemed by his blood to be literal virgins? If we take the 144k to be literal Jewish men, by bloodline, it exempts all women and we must also take them literally as virgins. Where does Christ command us that to be redeemed and the first fruits of his, we must be virgins (never sexually active) ?

 

[Timtofly]

a SEALED JUDGMENT BOOK MAN !!

When you get to heaven and see I was right you will be like DUH I should have listened.

It is the Lamb's Book of life. If one is removed that is God's judgment on them. No name can be removed until all the Seals are opened. Literally all those currently in sheol are in torment, but not their torment. That was the place prepared for the angels, not humans. Those in sheol now still have to wait 1,000 years, and only at the GWT will their named be removed. That is why the books are opened at the GWT.

The church is removed from the earth at the 6th Seal. They will not experience the Trumpets period. Those 144k, an exact number, will be sealed, and immune from the wrath of God in the Trumpets. The rest of house of Israel all 16 million+ will be separated into sheep and goats. John claims only a third will be sheep. The rest will be goats and sentenced to Death. Their name removed, and no chance of eternal life period. The sheep will be sent to the Millennial Kingdom on earth. They will re-establish Israel during the 1,000 year reign. This is the final harvest. All of them will be changed out of Adam's sinful dead flesh, into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Matthew 25 does not say they will be killed or martyred.

They will be changed, because sin and Adam's flesh will not enter the 1,000 year reign. The judgment of eternal life keeps their name in the Lamb's book of life. They will bevchanged like those of the church who were alive at the Second Coming. They are not glorified with the church, because they are not the church. God chose them despite the fact they did not choose God before the Second Coming. God chose to keep them in the Lamb's book of life via the criteria Jesus gave in Matthew 25. Of there are 16 million alive, then more than 5 million will be sheep. The 144k will remain on earth during the 7 Thunders, but the rest will be removed from the earth just like the church. No one stays on earth to experience every aspect of the final harvest.

The point of the harvest is to remove people, not torment them with horrible conditions. Only those at Armageddon will be the one's who suffered all the wrath of God. Then they will be killed themselves with no hope. This group should be small, or will not even exist. But Armageddon is the end of the road, not the final harvest. The final harvest was over before Satan was even given 42 months. A full harvest would render this 42 months null and void. Only God knows if the harvest will be full or not. God allowed John to see the worse case scenario, not the one that will happen.

 

[Timtofly]

Looking at another opinion (though you like to call it knowing) we see this
"
The key to interpreting this passage properly is in understanding that the entire seven years of Tribulation is considered the "wrath of God." The Bowl Judgments are just the final and greatest outpouring of wrath during those seven years, but the wrath of God is evident in all the judgments of Tribulation, as Revelation teaches us:

Gabriel never told Daniel there would be a 7 year period called the "wrath of God". Jesus is the 70th week. Even Daniel 9:27 states "in the midst". Only half of the 70th week is future, because Christ/Messiah was cut off after 3.5 years of earthly ministry. Jesus did not stay on earth as Prince. God declared the fullness of the Gentiles, and placed the end of the 70th week on hold. Only the 1,000 years reign will see those promises in Daniel 9:24.

Many are wrong, because they force the 70th week to all be in the first century. The other group is wrong who force 7 years into the future. The last half is not even going to be a full 3.5 years. That time will keep growing shorter the longer God holds off the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. See Revelation 9:15

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Some add these all up, but that is not what John was pointing out. We are told the 5th Trumpet will last for 5 months. That is at least the bare minimum of the final 3.5 years. Then the 6th Trumpet woe may last one of those mentioned time periods. So the minimum would be 5 months and 1 hour. Or the minimum could be 1.5 years. Even with these 2 time frames given in the first 2 woes, we still cannot give the exact amount of the last half of the 70th week between the Second Coming and the final Trumpet and woe. And that is not including the 7 Thunders, we were not allowed to know about.

Even if a person on earth could know when the 1st Seal was opened, would that moment have started the last 3.5 years of the 70th week? The 70th week is only for Israel and not the church. The church belongs in Paradise which is currently in the firmament. Israel will not be prepared until they actually see their Prince at the Second Coming, and it will be too late for the majority, if the prophets said only a third would be redeemed from the earth. Literally the only hope for a person calling themselves an Israelite is to accept the Messiah and join the church. No one has the guaranteed assurance, they will be one of the chosen. That is why they are given a 50/50 chance, but in reality the odds are even lower. Only a third of the 50% remain as sheep, and that is only if 8 million of them have accepted the Messiah in faith prior to the Second Coming. The 5 and 5 is just a parable showing the difference between choosing salvation or not. It is not that half of them will choose. But if half have chosen, the half that remains on earth will still be divided between sheep and goats. If 75% have chosen Christ, then of course the amount of Israel called goats will be lower. Unfortunately the likelihood is that only 25% have accepted Christ as their Messiah.

This parable of the virgins only separates those alive of Israel who are part of the church. Matthew 25 shows us those God chooses. The parable of the virgins are those of Israel who choose Christ. The sheep are those lost Israelites whom God chooses to redeem after being rejected by Israel as a whole. Many point out a third will be redeemed as a remnant.

 

[Timtofly]

As per the 144,000 do you think 10 Virgins is not a made up hook? but 144,000 male virgins is, I don't think like that. I think both are God using numbers to inform us about things which he does likewise in parables so the world hearing will not hear but us hearing should understand. So, you think God picks out a specific number of Jewish peoples to save I don't, that is akin to Calvinism, he is giving us a squared up number via multiplication, as in 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 12,000 x 12 = 144,000. The city of New Jerusalem just so happens to be 144,000 cubits also !! There are no MALE VIRGINS just like the 10 Females (All Christendom) are not all Female nor Virgins. What gets me is you understand the 10 Female Brides are allegorical, but can't seem to grasp the 144,000 Jews are also.

So God choosing 12 disciples in the first century is not correct, but Calvinistic and being male centric? Are those just made up names, and Peter, James, and John, just representatives of hundreds of males and females? Are you saying these actual literal humans were just parables, and never existed at all?

Now God did not have John place all 144k names in the Bible. God also was not given us code numbers. God chose an exact 12 disciples in the first century. At the Second Coming, God will Seal an exact 144k disciples as firstfruits. John describes them in chapter 14. There were thousands in the crowds that came to hear Jesus on different occasions. But those thousands did not follow Jesus around like the 12 disciples did. At the Second Coming the whole earth will be effected. Thus God has 144k close circle of disciples among the billions on earth. How could 5 million people all follow Jesus around all over the earth? It is going to seem strange to see 144k close people wherever Jesus goes. The point is having that core group. Revelation 7 is not a parable about explaining coded numbers. These are specific disciples chosen as a core group just as the original 12 disciples. Instead of working in a narrow strip of land called Palestine, Jesus will cover the whole earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The Second Coming ministry is the whole earth, all nations.