Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Eternally Grateful]

OK. Fair enough.
You think the nations invading Israel from the north will do so at the tail end of the Tribulation. One question comes to mind about that. If the covenant that is signed and broken midway involves Israel, why are nations invading it after that is in place? Nations whose forces are wiped out no less? One would think that if the world government forces existed at the end of the Tribulation, that Russia, Iran, Libya, Turkey and etc would not be allowed to invade a place that was covenant protected.

remember, the covenant is signed at the beginning of the 7 years. Then in the middle of the week The AOD is placed in the temple.. In that instance the antichrist literally breaks his own covenant.

 

[dad]

remember, the covenant is signed at the beginning of the 7 years. Then in the middle of the week The AOD is placed in the temple.. In that instance the antichrist literally breaks his own covenant.

Right, but he also rules the world. I guess you assume that he orders Turkey and etc to invade Israel? There is a king of the south that tries to fight that if I remember Daniel 11 correctly. So how could there be many nations that are not really ruled by a world government at the end of the tribulation since they are fighting each other?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, but he also rules the world. I guess you assume that he orders Turkey and etc to invade Israel? There is a king of the south that tries to fight that if I remember Daniel 11 correctly. So how could there be many nations that are not really ruled by a world government at the end of the tribulation since they are fighting each other?

thats why I believe it will occur in the end. We have two attacks actually. One God himself puts down, the second is armageddon. which occurs at his return. as he personally puts it down.. I believe the antichrist loses power at the end due to all that is going on.

 

[The Light]

The 6th Seal timing is the SAME timing as the 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. You have failed to compare the 6th Seal events about God's 'wrath' also per that 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

The trumpets and vials do occur in the same timeframe. They occur in the wrath of God. Whereas the seals happen in the tribulation. The trumpets CANNOT BEGIN until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore the trumpets and seals are not the same timing.

 

[Davy]

That has what to do with the second coming?

The immediate subject was about your denial in your post #182 regarding Zechariah 13. And the way the subject got there was about the one third you say represents all Israel. It doesn't. I represents Christ's Church, and I showed the relation of that 'smite the shepherd' clause to Jesus' crucifixion.

Thus the one third of Revelation 9 that are persecuted by the beast represent those of Christ's Church who remain faithful to Jesus through the great tribulation.

So what does Zechariah 13 one-third have to do with the last days? This...

Rev 9:15
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

The war that the beast makes for the tribulation is upon the saints, not the deceived and wicked. The deceived and wicked will be in the catbird seat during the coming trib, bowing to the false-Messiah thinking he is God. It's Christ's faithful Church that wait for Jesus to come that the beast will make war against (Revelation 13:4-8).

Those one third are the one third of Zechariah 13 that are in Christ. Notice it says the locusts are "prepared"... to slay them, doesn't say they succeed.


Rev 9:20-21
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
KJV

Earlier in Rev.9, we are told the locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal. The locusts may 'sting' those only. The sting is symbolic of deception of the "strong delusion" (2 Thess.2). Only Christ's faithful will not be subject to the "strong delusion".

So there's your 'one third', and they represent Christ's Church, of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.

 

[dad]

thats why I believe it will occur in the end. We have two attacks actually. One God himself puts down, the second is armageddon. which occurs at his return. as he personally puts it down.. I believe the antichrist loses power at the end due to all that is going on.

OK. I guess we don't really know. I don't think that Satan incarnate will lose power over the world myself until Jesus deals with him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK. I guess we don't really know. I don't think that Satan incarnate will lose power over the world myself until Jesus deals with him.

I agree

But remember, they are all tryign to attack jerusalem. One army does not even get near jerusalem. So not sure they are an actual threat to the beast. The second one is all the armies comming together.. This one will be defeated by christ himself.. I do not think either are in the first 3.5 years. As they are said to be a time of peace..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The immediate subject was about your denial in your post #182 regarding Zechariah 13. And the way the subject got there was about the one third you say represents all Israel. It doesn't. I represents Christ's Church, and I showed the relation of that 'smite the shepherd' clause to Jesus' crucifixion.

Thus the one third of Revelation 9 that are persecuted by the beast represent those of Christ's Church who remain faithful to Jesus through the great tribulation.

So what does Zechariah 13 one-third have to do with the last days? This...

Rev 9:15
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

The war that the beast makes for the tribulation is upon the saints, not the deceived and wicked. The deceived and wicked will be in the catbird seat during the coming trib, bowing to the false-Messiah thinking he is God. It's Christ's faithful Church that wait for Jesus to come that the beast will make war against (Revelation 13:4-8).

Those one third are the one third of Zechariah 13 that are in Christ. Notice it says the locusts are "prepared"... to slay them, doesn't say they succeed.


Rev 9:20-21
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
KJV

Earlier in Rev.9, we are told the locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal. The locusts may 'sting' those only. The sting is symbolic of deception of the "strong delusion" (2 Thess.2). Only Christ's faithful will not be subject to the "strong delusion".

So there's your 'one third', and they represent Christ's Church, of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.

Zech 13 is about Israel and Isreal only. Te 1/3 would be the remnant, And they will be refined like fire. It will be part of the repentance of Israel in the time of Jacobs trouble.

The church (gentile church) have no part in this.

 

[dad]

The immediate subject was about your denial in your post #182 regarding Zechariah 13. And the way the subject got there was about the one third you say represents all Israel. It doesn't. I represents Christ's Church, and I showed the relation of that 'smite the shepherd' clause to Jesus' crucifixion.

Well both Israel and the world lose huge numbers of people.
Looking at the chapter it seems to refer to Israel in the end.

Zechariah 13:8
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord , two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
You shouldn't need any more than seeing the phrase 'in that day'. It is used many times in that chapter and it is no secret what that phrase refers to. In addition we see this
Zechariah 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zechariah 13:2
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

That is future, no doubt.

Thus the one third of Revelation 9 that are persecuted by the beast represent those of Christ's Church who remain faithful to Jesus through the great tribulation.

There is and can be no 'thus' since you messed that up badly. You can't build on that now.
In Rev 9 it does not say Jews or other groups but men in general.
Revelation 9:15
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

So what does Zechariah 13 one-third have to do with the last days? This...

Rev 9:15
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

The war that the beast makes for the tribulation is upon the saints, not the deceived and wicked.

It does not specify only God's people were killed. It says men. Anything else is speculation.

The deceived and wicked will be in the catbird seat during the coming trib, bowing to the false-Messiah thinking he is God. It's Christ's faithful Church that wait for Jesus to come that the beast will make war against (Revelation 13:4-8).

The church is not mentioned at all. It is saints of that time. Stop reading your doctrines into the word.

Rev 9:20-21
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
KJV

Earlier in Rev.9, we are told the locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal. The locusts may 'sting' those only. The sting is symbolic of deception of the "strong delusion" (2 Thess.2). Only Christ's faithful will not be subject to the "strong delusion".

That destroys your previous claim that only believers are affected. Here we see the opposite. As for the creatures being some sort of preachers of delusion or whatever, that is not what the bible says. That is your opinion.

So there's your 'one third', and they represent Christ's Church, of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles.

The one third in Zec seem to be Jews. The one third in Rev seems to be all men.

 

[dad]

I agree

But remember, they are all tryign to attack jerusalem. One army does not even get near jerusalem.

Right, and how amazing is that! I think that will open a lot of eyes in that time. I suspect that the Rapture is at or just before this time. I think that is near the start of the last seven years.

So not sure they are an actual threat to the beast.

I could see some resistance to his rule, but not many whole nations. That war where Russia and the Muslim nations get wiped out may be the thing that allows the AntiChrist to assume world power. That would make sense since we know Europe is front and center in that last government.

The second one is all the armies comming together.. This one will be defeated by christ himself..

Right, and how amazing is that also! That will show Israel and all of us that if Israel had been saved before, He would have done the same for them! That will be a battle of battle to remember always.

I do not think either are in the first 3.5 years. As they are said to be a time of peace..

Well, Israel is at peace, I don't think it says the whole world. In the last battle of Armageddon, spiritual forces gather them top battle against God. (all under the order of God, who basically says 'bring it')

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, and how amazing is that! I think that will open a lot of eyes in that time. I suspect that the Rapture is at or just before this time. I think that is near the start of the last seven years.

Again, The first 3.5 years is a time of peace. The covenant made with many is some sort of peace treaty I am sure, which the world buys into.

I could see some resistance to his rule, but not many whole nations. That war where Russia and the Muslim nations get wiped out may be the thing that allows the AntiChrist to assume world power. That would make sense since we know Europe is front and center in that last government.
Right, and how amazing is that also! That will show Israel and all of us that if Israel had been saved before, He would have done the same for them! That will be a battle of battle to remember always.
Well, Israel is at peace, I don't think it says the whole world. In the last battle of Armageddon, spiritual forces gather them top battle against God. (all under the order of God, who basically says 'bring it')

I believe it is the financial collapse of the world which will usher in the antichrist. He takes over banking so much that no one can buy or sell.

I believe he promises hope for the world. And thats why they buy into him so easily.

 

[Davy]

The trumpets and vials do occur in the same timeframe. They occur in the wrath of God. Whereas the seals happen in the tribulation. The trumpets CANNOT BEGIN until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore the trumpets and seals are not the same timing.

You're only following how John wrote the events down, which is not the actual order of events. On the 6th Seal, it is showing the wicked on earth fearing for it is the time of God's Wrath, and they see The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven. That means the 'veil' of this world is removed for them to see into Heaven. So it is definitely pointing to the day of Christ's 2nd coming, which is the SAME event of the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial.

That reveals that the 'true' order of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are in parallel to each other, NOT in sets one after the other.

 

[Davy]

Zech 13 is about Israel and Isreal only.

It is about Christ's Church.

I've already shown what the previous Zechariah 13:6-7 are about. So are you blind too?

Mark 14:27-28
27 And Jesus saith unto them, "All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, 'I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee."
KJV


Zech 13:6-9
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'

7 Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Well both Israel and the world lose huge numbers of people.
Looking at the chapter it seems to refer to Israel in the end.
....
That is future, no doubt.

Strange how you skipped over the Zechariah 13:6-7 verses which directly point to the event of Christ's crucifixion. Just who all makes up believers on Christ's death and resurrection? Are not believing Gentiles included? YES! of course they are included, and that is actually prophecy too in God's Old Testament prophets. It is Christ's Church that will reign in the holy lands with Jesus beginning at His future return, and that won't just be Israelites only. The rebellious of Israel that reject Jesus will be cast out, meaning outside the gates of the holy city, or don't you remember what Jesus said about those bid to the marriage supper but would not come? (Matthew 8:5-12)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is about Christ's Church.

I've already shown what the previous Zechariah 13:6-7 are about. So are you blind too?

Mark 14:27-28
27 And Jesus saith unto them, "All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, 'I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee."
KJV


Zech 13:6-9
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'

7 Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
KJV

The only blind one is the one who says zech is about the church

[FONT=Open Sans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Those in Zech 13 are scattered (2.3) this occured in 70 AD.. 1/3 are saved, this is the remnant, Even paul mentioned the remnant in Rom 11[/FONT]

 

[dad]

Again, The first 3.5 years is a time of peace. The covenant made with many is some sort of peace treaty I am sure, which the world buys into.

OK, but remember you said they would be attacked when they were at peace.

I believe it is the financial collapse of the world which will usher in the antichrist. He takes over banking so much that no one can buy or sell.

I can't argue with that, but we don't really know. There are a few things I can think of that would possibly set the stage. One is if Israel nuked Syria or/and Iran, or if they did some operation that resulted in a nuclear exchange over there of some sort. That would make the UN probably try to take such weapons away or something. Another thing is if Russia and the nations of Eze 38,39 moved on Israel, and got destroyed. Of course one reason they might move is as above. But as I said, we don't know.

I believe he promises hope for the world. And thats why they buy into him so easily.

Maybe. Oh, and another thing that could set the stage for a final world government is if Babylon were the USA, and was burned with fire and destroyed (presumably at the same time as the Rapture). If China were involved I assume China would receive severe damage as well, clearing the way for Europe to be the dominant world power.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK, but remember you said they would be attacked when they were at peace.

When did I say this? I d nt remember this

I can't argue with that, but we don't really know. There are a few things I can think of that would possibly set the stage. One is if Israel nuked Syria or/and Iran, or if they did some operation that resulted in a nuclear exchange over there of some sort. That would make the UN probably try to take such weapons away or something. Another thing is if Russia and the nations of Eze 38,39 moved on Israel, and got destroyed. Of course one reason they might move is as above. But as I said, we don't know.
Maybe. Oh, and another thing that could set the stage for a final world government is if Babylon were the USA, and was burned with fire and destroyed (presumably at the same time as the Rapture). If China were involved I assume China would receive severe damage as well, clearing the way for Europe to be the dominant world power.

Bath attacks are satanic. Remember he goes after the woman, But God protects her. So Satan will continue when he can to go after her. He must keep God from keeping his promise.

 

[dad]

Strange how you skipped over the Zechariah 13:6-7 verses which directly point to the event of Christ's crucifixion. Just who all makes up believers on Christ's death and resurrection? Are not believing Gentiles included? YES! of course they are included, and that is actually prophecy too in God's Old Testament prophets. It is Christ's Church that will reign in the holy lands with Jesus beginning at His future return, and that won't just be Israelites only. The rebellious of Israel that reject Jesus will be cast out, meaning outside the gates of the holy city, or don't you remember what Jesus said about those bid to the marriage supper but would not come? (Matthew 8:5-12)

I was not ignoring those verses, but getting the context of when it was that was being talked about. The clear context repeated often is 'in that day'!
Also, we see this
Zechariah 13:8
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord , two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Two thirds of the people in Israel did not die when they killed Jesus.

 

[dad]

When did I say this? I d nt remember this

Looking back, I see I must have misread your post.

"This one will be defeated by christ himself.. I do not think either are in the first 3.5 years. As they are said to be a time of peace."

I had thought you meant they will be attacked in a time of peace.

I also was thinking of this verse
Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

So the attack comes when they dwell safely.

Ezekiel 38:14
Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God ; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Bath attacks are satanic. Remember he goes after the woman, But God protects her. So Satan will continue when he can to go after her. He must keep God from keeping his promise.

Yes there will be terrible persecution of believers.

 

[ewq1938]

That's impossible

It's not only possible, but it's a fact. All the seals are just showing John events that will happen later in the trumps. No event happens when a seal is opened other than John seeing the future. Jesus returns at the 7th trump and the 6th seal gives us a preview of it.