THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

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Brakelite

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He had the ability to sin
I know that.
If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and the death Christ died he died to sin once (Romans 6:10) - How can he be God is he died to sin once?
Oh, I understand that very well, and it of you had been a little more humble you would have seen it in my posts a long time ago, because it is tired to the fact that He is God's Son. Angels and men, no matter how pure and how holy, could not offer their lives. As a sacrifice, because their lives weren'theis to give. They belonged to their Creator. Jesus however,, had the power and authority to offer His life because, and only because, He is God. His life was His own. His life was His Father's life. Unborrowed. Not. created. Self existent. Self sustaining. He had power to lay out down, and He had power to take it up again. But
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus die to sin once?

Think Brakelite - forget about what you think you know - read the words and think about what God did in Christ!

How were your sins represented in his body on the tree!
How could God remove the law of Sin and Death in Christ's body?

F2F
I gave you my answer, the sanctuary as the type, but you ignored it, refusing to even consider 4000 years of biblical history, tradition, and faith as the true signpost of the antitype, Christ.

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. ”
1 John 5:20 KJV
 

Brakelite

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All good - once you understand Jesus died completely and totally then this verse takes on new meaning.

The phrase "spirits in prison" refers to individuals in bondage to sin and death. The concept of prison is associated with this idea in the following passages:

"I the LORD have called thee [Christ]... to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." (Isaiah 42:6-7)

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound." (Isaiah 61:1)

Additionally, in Ephesians 2:1-2, Paul tells the Ephesians: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience."

The term "spirits" in Scripture never refers to disembodied persons. Even angels, who are called "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7), are bodily beings. Lot referred to them as "men" (Genesis 19:1,8), and Jacob wrestled with one of them (Genesis 32:24). Similarly, the Apostle John instructs believers to "try the spirits" (1 John 4:1), but in the same verse, he identifies the spirits with false prophets.

Do you still want to learn about that section or happy with you ethereal spirits belief?

F2F
I agree in part. Like death being sleep. But disagree with you on what the passage actually means.
Christ did preach to the spirits in prison, as you say, in bondage to sin, and He did it in Noah's day, through the Spirit of Christ in Noah. Just as Christ preached through all the prophets through His Spirit.
 

amigo de christo

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And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him
to all who ................
to all who OBEY HIM . the sheep of His pasture love His words and by the SPIRIT have the love of GOD shed upon their hearts .
That kinda love PUTS GOD CHRIST FIRST and above and before all others and then it loves its neighbor as itself .
TRUE LOVE LOVETH GOD ABOVE ALL . thus the love of GOD sure does REJOICE IN THE TRUTH .
Charity rejoices in the truth , not in inquity . The love of the world however will put neighbor , wife , husband
humanity BEFORE GOD and it loveth sins and will do all to twist the words of the truth of GOD rather than
those who HAVE THE LOVE OF GOD who Would have loved the TRUTH . The sheep eat on THE GREEN grass of HIS every word .
He has humbled HIS own and has put the love that teaches and has taught them That man does not live
by bread alone but by EVERY WORD OF THE GLORIOUS LORD . ISNT that just lovely my friend .
 
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Wrangler

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Let me ask you, Wrangler: how is it that a member can be shown the truth repeatedly, yet continue to present more verses as if they prove their point?
It’s IDOLATRY, plain and simple.

Let’s change the particulars to see the dynamic. The word ‘fan’ is derived from the word fanatic. A female tennis player, Monica Seles was about to over-take Stefi Graff for the #1 rated tennis player in the world. A fan stabs Seles in the shoulder.

Fans of Graff defend the act on grounds that are all over the place. As fans of Seles dismantle each argument, the Graff fans merely do laps on ground already covered, only now stated with increasing emotion and making various fallacious appeals. Being a fan, they just cannot concede that Graff should lose the #1 ranking no matter what.

IDOLATRY is far more fanatical than this. They literally equate their IDOL with worship of God, having far more important consequences of abandoning it than not supporting a sports star.
 
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Wrangler

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The texts speak for themselves. You are the one that attaches a false meaning.
You act as if there is something wrong with posting scriptures
Appeal to Superman fallacy. I beg to differ. We can all read Scripture on our own. If you think a particular verse is relevant to the discussion, you should not merely provide the verse by explain your reasoning of how it furthers the discussion.

Copying and pasting does not advance the discussion. I think this is what @face2face is saying here.
 
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RLT63

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Appeal to Superman fallacy. I beg to differ. We can all read Scripture on our own. If you think a particular verse is relevant to the discussion, you should not merely provide the verse by explain your reasoning of how it furthers the discussion.

Copying and pasting does not advance the discussion. I think this is what @face2face is saying here.
When the text obviously counters the post being responded to there is no need for commentary
 
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RLT63

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face2face

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They’re not my Lord, Jesus is
My Logos Library is rather extensive RLT...its taken over 12 year to grow it 9,480 works, including those of my own. Many of them contain commentary on Trinitarian Dogma, which is why I am able to reason out the matter.

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face2face

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I agree in part. Like death being sleep.
Nice to agree on something...
But disagree with you on what the passage actually means.
Christ did preach to the spirits in prison, as you say, in bondage to sin, and He did it in Noah's day, through the Spirit of Christ in Noah. Just as Christ preached through all the prophets through His Spirit.
The issue for you is not having a narrative that explains Christ being alive while dead or a pre-existent Christ — the problem is that such a story is absent, which we would expect if these concepts were false.

I mean, you can say what ever you want concerning that section of Scripture and know you have no other passage in the OT or anywhere to support.

What's being revealed to you fits the Biblical Story and Context.

F2F
 

face2face

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“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. ”
1 John 5:20 KJV
NET sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, houtos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ.

It's weary business dealing with these misquotes Brakelite - Scott did it yesterday using John 6:46 and now you today.

The phrase "He is the true God" can be interpreted differently depending on how one understands the referent. Some might read this as referring to Jesus Christ (the Son of God), which could seem to imply Jesus is fully divine, while others might argue it refers to God the Father, especially when considering other passages in the Bible that emphasize the Father's role as "the true God." The grammatical structure of the passage doesn't definitively clarify whether "He" refers to the Father or the Son.

Can you understand my frustration, as I expect a lot more from you than others in this forum.

It comes down to credibility in the end and if I am seen to using Scripture to prove some thing which is false, I would expect the same level of scrutiny and correction.

Better to know the text and say "hey, this text is questionable at best, what are you thoughts?"...at least we can discuss the context and consider why it was challenging even for the translators.

F2F
 

Aunty Jane

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i was raised RCC and then God called me out of the Harlot and chose me to belong to Him.
So the FATHER, of His Good Pleasure, brought me to Christ.

When HE brought me to Christ i was overwhelmed of my sin and shame as His Word reveled the TRUTH of His Holiness and Purity.
But HE did not leave me like that, for HE poured out His Grace and covered all my sins.
GREAT JOY filled me to overflowing as HE placed me in Christ.
Thank you for sharing your personal journey...it is good to see the other side of the posts to the actual person.

My experience is not dramatic or miraculous, just a slow and sure realisation that what was taught to me by the church, simply did not sit well with me and their explanations were frustratingly vague and completely illogical. I wanted my answers direct from Scripture and only Scripture. If anyone said “I think it means....” I immediately closed the conversation....I am not remotely interested in what a thousand other people “think” the Bible says...I wanted the Bible to speak for itself.

I undertook a Bible study with those who felt the same way I did.....allowing the Bible to speak for itself, without tap dancing meaning into it that fought with other things. I found so many contradictions in the way the church imputed meaning into ambiguous verses to support something Jesus never directly said.

I studied for two solid years before I committed myself in baptism to the same God that Jesus served. I carefully checked the meaning of original language words to make sure that the translations I was using were accurate. It was very enlightening to discover how much bias was demonstrated concerning the trinity that was inferred all over the place, when the original languages did not even suggest it.

I delved into church history of the later centuries as opposed to Christian history of the first century, and discovered where all the rot had come from......not Jesus or the apostles.

The God of Israel was the God of Jesus, so I wanted to get to know him and to understand Jesus’ teachings from his Jewish perspective. All the Bible writers were Jewish, so unless we read their writings through a Jewish lens, we will never know the God who was served so faithfully by those first Christians.

I wanted to know why we were created and what purpose we served here on this earth? The Creator had gone to a lot of trouble if this was just a training ground for heaven......and there was no mention of it to Adam.....no heaven or hell....just everlasting life in beautiful surroundings, serving God’s purpose for our being here. The only mention of death was in connection to sin. No sin would have meant no death.

There is so much added to the beautiful simplicity of God’s first purose for humankind, that takes us so far away from why we were put here in the first place.

It seems to make others uncomfortable when we bring up things that fight with what is essentially strong indoctrination of three main issues...and these three are connected to beliefs held in common by the majority of the human race no matter what religion they adhere to...

1) The worship of multiple gods....or even one god split into three separate personalities. There were many triads worshiped in paganism.

2) Belief in an afterlife, with some conscious part of man that invisibly exits the body at death.

3) The destination for that invisible entity....to either a heaven of bliss for the good people ......or a hell of eternal torture in flames for the wicked.

I questioned all three when I reaized that even the pagans held all these beliefs in some form or another.

If God was a person with multiple personalities, and we are made in his image, then multiple personality disorder would not be a disorder...it would be completely natural. Yet it is not natural......the product of extreme trauma.

When God formed Adam and placed him in the garden, he did not mention any place for this soul to go except back to the dust from which he was created. Adam was not “given” a soul but “became” one when God started him breathing. All living things that breathe are called “souls” in the Bible. The word never means a disembodied spirit.
There was just “life and death”......not “heaven or hell”.
A restoration of life was promised by resurrection, but there was no continuation of it immediately after death. The resurrection was yet future when they wrote about it.

I also realised that it was the devil who told the woman “you surely will not die” when God had told Adam the opposite. So there is no such thing as an immortal soul as I studied the word “soul” in the Bible and discovered that it did not mean what I was taught. Souls are not spirits...they are entirely mortal (Ezekiel 18:4)....animals and humans are souls because they breathe oxygen.....and after Adam’s sin, humans were relegated to the same fate as the animals, with no superiority over them. (Eccl 3:19-20)
No one comes to the FATHER but thru JESUS.
That is true...but I also came to realize that no one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65)
 
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face2face

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The Bible is clear that the attributes of God prevent Him from engaging in certain behaviors or being subject to specific conditions. For example:
  • God cannot die, because He is eternal (Psalm 90:2, "Even before the mountains came into existence, or You brought the world into being, You were the eternal God"; see also 1 Timothy 1:17).
  • God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, "...in hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the ages began"; see also Hebrews 10:23).
  • God cannot invoke a higher authority than Himself (Hebrews 6:13, "Now when God made His promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself").
  • God cannot sin or be tempted by evil (James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself tempts no one").
Thus, the Christian God can do anything that is consistent with His character and nature. Conversely, God cannot do anything that contradicts His character and nature. Ultimately, this means it is impossible for God to cease being God or to be both "God" and "not-God" simultaneously. God is not self-contradictory.
 
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Ritajanice

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@face2face

Do trinitarians believe that Jesus never had the ability to sin?


I used to believe Jesus never had the ability to sin, then I believe God opened my eyes to the truth.
 
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