Understanding the Pre-incarnate Christ

[Hobie]

The Bible has it all there, but we must prayerfully look, and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

How can we understand this, the mystery of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but the Holy Ghost has to guide us. For some reason, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must be clear, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary.

Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.

Matthew 1:23
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10)

The first commandment says,
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10)

Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped.

Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

So we see that Christ is not only the Creator but Jehovah God..

 

[Hobie]

Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 )

Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Philippians 2:6)
If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:

Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'

Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He volunteered to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Ghost can guide us into understanding.

"4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8).

So you have to look at this issue of worship first, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. So to worship any other is a sin, but then we have the mystery of the Godhead as Christ was not brought into existence, rather He always existed as one with the Father. We see Christ as the Creator, as Jehovah, as the Great I AM, and appeared in different ways more than fifty times in the Old Testament before coming as flesh in the New Testament.

For any creature to claim the right to be worshipped is blaspheme. In fact the Jews falsely accused Jesus of this. "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:33 ) Notice these scriptures that show Jesus was worshipped.

Matthew 2:11 "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 8:2 "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

Matthew 28:9 "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

Mark 5:6 "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Luke 24:52 "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

John 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

Rev 5:14 "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Then we have Jesus Himself showing us how He existed prior to the Incarnation and His role, it was not hidden, it is right there in the Bible. Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad."

The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus said, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abrahams day, so they reacted.

John 8:57-58
"57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal I AM. We see their reaction as verse 59 says, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him".

Jesus was directly and actively involved in the creation of man. Indeed you find in Genesis, God said...

Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness (Genesis 1:26)

Then there is a prediction of Christ's redemptive work on the cross in Genesis 3:15 :
"And I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel."

Christ was there at the beginning, from eternity..

 

[Hobie]

The pre-incarnate existence of Christ, and His pre-incarnate works, is important for several reasons. First, His preexistence is a necessary attribute to show who He was when He came as flesh. If Christ did not exist prior to His incarnation, then He cannot be God. Second, it is important that we have a firm understanding of the pre-incarnate Christ in order to discern what is false doctrine and what is the truth. Third, it gives the Christian a tremendous surety in whom their faith is and the Bible. So it is essential that the preexistence of Christ be proven in order to prove His deity. Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, Jehovah who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.

But then there is a second issue that presents itself, the Lord Himself told Moses that man could not be before the awesome glory that is God. Moses had asked to see God's glory as He was told in in Exodus 33 verse 20, "20But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." This awesome glory presented a problem. If men could not live after seeing Him then how could Christ interact with mankind and as the Bible says no man has ever seen God the Father. The Father is spirit. No one has ever seen His face.

We first have the appearance of God walking in the garden in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:8, but this was after sin so they would have died if they had come before God. But the fact is that God has been seen by men. Enoch and Noah both "walked with God" (Genesis 5:24; 6:9)Then you have 'the Lord' appearing to Abraham in Genesis 18 as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and we know the many sins of Abraham, but yet he lived. So who have they seen?

So we have to see how scripture clues us in, and the answer was that God placed Himself in veiled form when He came to the people, and it was Jesus Christ in pre-incarnate appearances. So, how can we know this, that Jesus existed before His incarnation? Well, In Isaiah 6, Isaiah goes to the Temple to mourn the death of his king, and when Isaiah goes there he suddenly sees the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lifted up high and glorious in the Temple as the angels cry 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory'. Ezekiel also saw that "upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man upon it.... This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD (Ezekiel 1:26,28). Then, over in the New Testament, we are told that when Isaiah saw the Lord lifted up high and holy he saw Jesus Christ. John 12:41 tells us that what Isaiah saw was Jesus in "His glory", the glory He had before He became incarnate (Philippians 2:5-8).

Looking back at Abraham with the three men that visited him while he was at the tent door we find first, that the leader talked with Abraham. Then He inquired about Sarah and made a promise:
Genesis 18
"9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him
a promise to Abraham.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

Later, in Genesis 21:1-2, we are told who the leader is.
"1 And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him."

The One who spoke with Abraham at the tent, was the Lord Himself. But, because of her old age, Sarah had doubted and laughed at the Lord's promise. The Lord makes a clear promise with a time line in Genesis 18 and fulfilled in Genesis 21, here is His promise.

"Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son." Genesis 18:14.

In Genesis 18:10, the central figure or leader of the men promised to return a year later. But, in verse 14, it makes it clear it is the Lord and He promised to return a year later. The leader and the Lord are one and he same. Now take a look at this...

"Then the men rose up from there and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. And the Lord said, ˜Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do." Genesis 18:16-17

Abraham was walking with the three men in the direction of Sodom when the leader (the Lord) spoke to him.

"Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord" (v.22).

There seems to be a problem. If the three men left for Sodom and the Lord remained with Abraham, is the Lord now appearing as a fourth person? Our answer is found in the first part of Genesis 19:1.
"Now the two angels came to Sodom"

If two angels went to Sodom, then the third angel (or man) remained with Abraham. The third angel was the pre-incarnate Son of God. Jesus did see Abraham and thus "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." as He declared in John 8:56-58.

 

[Hobie]

Then we look in Genesis 32:24-32 and we find Jacob wrestling with a man all night, but it is not just a man. The passage does not tell us directly, but Jacob records that he recognized who it was. Jacob told this man that he would not let him go until he blessed him. The man asked him what his name was and Jacob told him. The man then said in Genesis 32:28 "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." This passage directly says that it was God that Jacob wrestled with all night.

The interesting part of the story is that Jacob clearly lets us know he recognized who he was wrestling with. He tells us in Genesis 32:30 : "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

We also read that Christ in pre-incarnate also appears as what is called "the Angel of the Lord." That doesn't mean that Jesus is an angel, rather it means He is God's angel. This term means Jesus is a messenger of the Lord as angel means "messenger."

When Moses saw the burning bush, God spoke to him out of the burning bush and told him take his shoes off as that was holy ground. The next verse says, "And who spoke to him was the Angel of the Lord." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

We also see, "the Angel of the Lord" who found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel, the Bible tells us.

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God", and then when Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him.

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

Clearly this is the Lord, which is Jehovah.

Judges 6:22 records, "When Gideon realized that it was the Angel of the Lord he exclaimed, 'O sovereign Lord, I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face,' but the Lord said to him, 'Peace do not be afraid you are not going to die.'" Gideon saw God incarnate, Jesus as the Angel of the Lord.

We also see the Angel of the Lord as the pre-incarnate Son of God in Judges 13.
It tells us that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Manoah's wife and promised her that she would conceive and give birth to a son. He gives the instructions for the son who is Samson, note what He says about the child being a Nazarite from the womb:
"3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:"

The Angel of the Lord appeared a second time to Manoah's wife and she immediately called her husband.

"15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord."

Burnt offerings are to be presented to God only, and we see it was the Angel of the Lord.

Then what Manoah asks and the answer which is very interesting...
"17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"

Then the Angel of the Lord performed the wonders as described in verse 19 and 20:

"19... and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground."

So Manoah and his wife fell on their faces in worship to Him, and we know only God can be worshipped, but now Manoah tells us who the Angel of the Lord who performed wonders is.

"21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, for we have seen God."

The Angel of the Lord is Jehovah God, the Pre-incarnate Christ

 

[Hobie]

Then we have the 'Son of God' appear in one of my favorite stories in the Bible, and walk in the fiery furnace with Daniels three friends.

Daniel 3:23-25 "23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

Then In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us." (Acts 7:37, 38)

The Angel of Jehovah is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was "I Am."
have the 'Son of God' appear and walk in the fiery furnace with Daniels three friends.

Daniel 3:23-25 "23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

Then In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us." (Acts 7:37, 38)

The Angel of Jehovah is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was "I Am." In the New Testament Christ identifies Himself as the great "I Am."
John 8:58
"58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

And we look Moses at the burning bush..
Exodus 3:13-14 "13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Jesus Christ himself was telling the Jews that He was the angel in the burning bush speaking to Moses, and therefore was God. This the Jews understood, which is why they picked up rocks to stone him. It was the angel of the Lord within the burning bush who applied the title of I AM to himself, Christ applied the same title to himself.

This Angel of the Lord that appeared was the pre-incarnate Christ, and shown as the Lord. But Christ is clearly not a created angelic being. The divinity of Christ is clearly spelled out in Scriptures. Hebrew the first chapter clearly differentiates between Jesus and those supernatural beings called angels.

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". (Hebrews 1:4)

Scripture gives us understanding of the Pre-incarnate Christ, but we must see with eyes that see and hear with ears that hear.

 

[Hobie]

We then look in the text and we find In many places in the Old Testament it refers to the everlasting attribute of God, we see this with Abraham when he called upon the Lord.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God is constantly referred to and His protection, and law, in the Bible but most importantly, His existence is shown as eternal.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Proverbs 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Then we see how the prophecy of Christ as the Messiah describe Him as everlasting and points to His existence from eternity past.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And many verses confirmed the everlasting God as the Creator.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding

Then prophecy states that Messiah would come from Bethlehem, and He is described as He "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

This states not only His preexistence but the fact that He has existed from eternity. So then we look at the appearance of God in a physical form and see that it was none other than Christ Himself. If He appeared before His incarnation, then He obviously existed before His incarnation.

In John 1:14, we read that "the Word" became flesh.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now that He became flesh implies that He was not always flesh, in other words, that He existed before His incarnation.

In John 3:13, Jesus said that He came down from heaven.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Mortal men do not come down from heaven. This implies a previous existence.

In John 17:18, we see that the Father sent Him into the world.
John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

In Hebrews 2:14 we read that He partook of flesh and blood.
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

All of these things imply that He existed prior to His incarnation.

 

[Hobie]

Jesus was there from the beginning, it was the Pre-Incarnate Christ that made His appearance walking in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, it was He who appeared to Noah, Abraham, Moses and we see it in the New Testament.
Hebrews 1:1-8
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Here the New Testament calls Jesus God. It says in verse 7 that while God made the angels to be "spirits and His ministers a flame of fire," to the Son He says in verse 8, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." And this only one of many direct applications of the Greek word for God (theos) to Jesus. Now we look and we see in the Old Testament it is clear that there is no other god and that He does not allow man to follow or worship any other god.

Exodus 20:1-5
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Clearly God shows here that not to bow and worship or make images to worship or serve another god. Now, this next verse makes clear there will be no other god, never was and never will be.
Isaiah 43:10
Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

So scripture is absolutely clear that only God is to be worshipped, and would not allow any other god, and there would not be one before or after. So scripture clearly lays out, “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me” and their is only one Lord and Saviour, the Holy One, our Redeemer as we see...

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Clearly we see there is no Saviour besides Him...

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Then who is Christ...

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We see what clearly shows who Christ in the references of the Old Testament found in the New Testament.

Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Notice here that Isaiah puts not just that He is the First and the Last, but also that there is no other God besides me. And we see this in the New Testament.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

And here we see the angels bow before Him [Jesus] in adoration, exclaiming, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord *GOD ALMIGHTY."

Revelation 4:8-9
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

And we see...
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Christ was there from the everlasting, our great God Jehovah, the first and the last, the Lord God Almighty, our Lord and Saviour, before the foundations of the world and both the New and Old Testament show this...

 

[Hobie]

So we see that He is the Creator, and here we see it repeated and notice for Whom..

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

So we see ”the world was made by him", and "without him was not anything made that was made." If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. And as Christ existed before all things and we see this..

Psalm 93:2
Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ was the babe born in Bethlehem, Christ was God Jehovah, and the Creator. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity. All that God is, Christ is.

The Bible shows us that Jesus is Lord of Creation. The description "first-born of all creation" speaks of Christ's preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator. Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient times, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership. So what we are seeing, is that the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation, He is the Creator. Now in the Old Testament we see this..

Psalm 89:27
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Here the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "Also, I will make Him [Christ] my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth".
We also see in the New Testament where Christ is declared to be the first-born of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

These passages declare the preexistence of Christ, as well as the sovereignty, and more. So the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ's preeminence, but people misunderstand how it is used and think it means 'first created'.

 

[Hobie]

Then look at the Second Coming...
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here it states that at the second coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If he shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel. Furthermore, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in Corinthians in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord Jehovah of the Old Testament....
1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ ', whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of Jehovah, Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as Jehovah.

Thus Jehovah shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or second coming the Lord. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming...

 

[Hobie]

Now, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be.

Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.

Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title, but it shows us that Christ has always been there with the Father implementing the plan of salvation.

I got some good insight from a few friends on this issue, here is from my friend Amo...
'This belief did not originate with the SDA church. Nor are they the only ones who make this connection.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Revelation 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairns BD).
John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, 1Thessalonians 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in Daniel 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in Revelation 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)'

and as to evidence of Michael the Prince creating the universe as Christ the Creator, here are some verses that make the connection....

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)"...

 

[Hobie]

Here is a excellent outline of the divinity of Jesus who is Jehovah....
"Everything about the Christian faith rests on the divinity of Jesus, hence its importance for Christian faith, life and practice. The Bible provides compelling evidence of Jesus’ divinity and so in this article, we will explore how His divinity is revealed in and through His person, His fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, His ministry of healing and His acceptance of worship. Due to the constraints of this article we cannot refer to the claims of Jesus: His power to forgive and ability to predict the future.

We turn to the Gospels that “were written within living memory of the events they recount.”1 Matthew identifies Jesus as Emmanuel, which means “God with us” (Matthew 1:21). Emmanuel describes the concept of the incarnation—God becoming man. The identity of Jesus as “God with us” is consistent with John 1:1, which refers to Jesus as the “Word who was with God, and who was God”. The mind-wrenching reality John tells his readers is that this God— the God who is the Word—became flesh (sarx) (John 1:1,14). It is shocking that the height of the self-revelation of God in John 1 is God becoming flesh.2

Each of the Gospel writers quote Isaiah 40:3, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord.’” In Isaiah, the Lord refers to Yahweh, but now the Gospel writers see this prediction fulfilled in Jesus, whom they understand to be Yahweh incarnate. We read of Jesus performing many miracles in the Gospels and demonstrating power over nature and demons (Mark 5:1-20; 6:30-50). The question that confronts us is whether Jesus acted as God or simply as a prophet requesting the Father to perform the works. The words of Jesus and the reaction of those impacted by these miracles suggest that Jesus was acting as God and not simply as a prophet. For example, Jesus healed people who were demon possessed, epileptics, paralytics and lepers (Matthew 4:23,24; 8:2,3). The healings had to be accomplished with divine power. Sometimes the people had to just touch His garment and they were made well (Matthew 14:36). At other times Jesus knew “in himself that power had gone out from him” (Mark 5:30). When Jesus healed the great multitude, “power came out from him and healed them all” (Luke 6:19). Jesus is so keen, so willing, that at times His power goes ahead of Him to heal.

Jesus accepted worship from believers and even demons (Matthew 14:33; Mark 1:34; 5:6-10). The leper in Matthew 8:2,3 worshipped Jesus. Since Jews were monotheistic, either Jesus was flagrantly denouncing this Jewish teaching and His own heritage or He did, indeed, understand Himself as the divine Messiah and hence worthy of worship.

The early Christians continued to worship Jesus as God in the doxologies that refer to Him (Romans 9:5; 2 Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:5,6), in the prayers offered to Him (Acts 7:59,60; 2 Corinthians 12:8,9), and in the songs and hymns sung to Him (1 Corinthians 14:26; Philippians 2: 5-11; Colossians 3:16,17).3 The New Testament writers understood that Jesus is not just God-in-action or God-by-revelation but rather that He is both God-in-nature and God-by-action.4

The Gospels record Jesus raising people from the dead: including Jairus’ daughter (Matthew 9:23-26), the son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7:14) and Lazarus (John 11:35-45). In His divinity Jesus demonstrates how much He cares, especially as He grieves for Lazarus (John 11:44).

Furthermore, named persons involved in Jesus’ miracles—people like Zacchaeus, Lazarus, Bartimaeus and others, would serve as “authoritative guarantors” of these miracles, as they were directly involved in them.5 In the years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, these named persons could testify to what Jesus had done and said to them personally. These named persons add further historical credibility to the Gospels.

After a tough day of ministry, Jesus sent the crowds away and the disciples into a boat. “Later that night, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on the land. He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them,” says Mark (6:47,48a). In spite of the distance and the darkness, Jesus saw them in their anguish. For Mark, with his high Christology, Jesus was Yahweh of the Old Testament who saw His people in distress (Exodus 3:7).6 Mark continues, “he was about to pass by them” (v 48b). Mark’s words are saturated with the language and thought world of the Old Testament. The language of “pass by” (parelthein) is an allusion to Old Testament theophany7 stories in which God revealed His glory (Exodus 33:19-23; 34:6; 1 Kings 9:11; Job 9:11). Jesus wanted to pass by and reveal His glory to the disciples but their fear and lack of perception did not make this possible.8"

 

[Hobie]

We see in Isaiah were Christ is called the Prince of Peace..
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Then we find in Daniel 10 where He is called "Michael, one of the chief princes"..

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Then in Daniel 12 we see where He is called "the great prince" stands up right before the time of trouble..
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And we see Christ called a prince again in Acts, here a "Prince of life", and "Prince and a Saviour"..
Acts 3:15
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And we see in Revelation He is called " prince of the kings of the earth."..
Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[GeneZ]

The Bible has it all there, but we must prayerfully look, and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

How can we understand this, the mystery of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but the Holy Ghost has to guide us. For some reason, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must be clear, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary.

Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.

Matthew 1:23
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10)

The first commandment says,
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10)

Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped.

Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

So we see that Christ is not only the Creator but Jehovah God..

Incarnate = in flesh.
Incarnation literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh.

Who was the Lord God of Israel prior to making Himself become as a man?

The OT shows us that His Soul was in Heaven, being one with Jehovah over the Jews.

Here is the soul of Jesus as shown in the OT!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving ​

violence, his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, ​

and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons ​

and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​

​

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, ​

I will make My dwelling among you, and my soul will not reject you.​

'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

NOTE! God is spirit. Not soul. = two natures in union!

God is spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24​

As human soul in union with God, he had been always existing in Heaven in the "form of God."

​

Jesus, though eternally existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something ​

to be grasped (to be seized {means to violently take} and held, but emptied himself, taking the form ​

of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:6-7​

At one point in God's plan, He denied himself to be as God and made himself to become as a man!


grace and peace!