The social gospel?

[Episkopos]

There seem to be some things you are missing about this subject of God's character. In spite of God's mercy to Cain as pertains to this life, I doubt poor Cain has inherited eternal life (see Jude).

That's not the point of forgiveness. Poeple want God to overlook their sins...well He already does that. But sin is a SYMPTON of a bigger spiritual problem, that you are not addressing...or your cohorts are addressing.

When a leper is healed...is the leprosy healed or just the skin cleared up temporarily?

When leprosy is healed the root of the problem is healed. Such is the gospel...it heals us from the disease of sin...the affliction. the bondage of sin.

Forgiveness is an understanding of one's condition...but not the solution to it.

The most foolish notion possible is to believe Jesus came all this way just to forgive sins. In fact it is a lie. Jesus came to set the captives free. Forgive a man his sin, and he will continue to sin. Free a man from his sin nature and he will not need forgiveness again.

And in spite of the rain mercifully falling on the just and unjust alike, it's pretty certain we will not see the unjust in heaven one day.

Do you mean Valhalla? Or the New Earth?

I'm quite certain that we won't see many who name and claim salvation foolishly.

Even the righteous Jews under the Law could only be justified if they had FAITH.

Not so. The righteous DO what is right. The peculiarity of the righteousness of faith is that it is transportable into the New Covenant of walking in the perfection of holiness in Christ. No works can translate you into the heavenly walk. It is by faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's not the point of forgiveness. Poeple want God to overlook their sins...

lol. Is this what you think? You do not know us at all

 

[Behold]

The believers that say Lord, Lord, and are rejected as lawless....workers of iniquity... were they sanctified first or forgiven first?

Let me show you that verse, as you have twisted it into a bizarrely religious pretzel logic, as you tend to do with the Bible, in general.. @Episkopos.

Jesus said.. to certain unnamed disciples... "depart from me, i never knew you".. and these "lost" disciples were using Jesus's name, to cast out demons.

And why did they go to hell? ("Depart from me")..
= Its because "Jesus never knew them".

What type of "disciple" is it that Jesus never knew?

So, to understand this, we have to understand what it means to be "KNOWN".... by God.
And that means..

= For God to Know you, you have to become "born again", as that is WHY you are known... by God and Christ.
So, a follower of Jesus, or a disciple of Jesus, can be an " unknown...religious but lost""", because they are not born again..

See Reader...

Jesus said....>"You must be born again".. .and you can be a disciple and never be born again.. You can use Jesus name, in a Pulpit, or on a Forum, or write books about JESUS< and yet, Jesus says....>>"I NEVER KNEW YOU">.. because you are not "BORN AGAIN".
This one is a disciple based on their point of view, only.

Notice this now..

All the born again, are ""IN CHRIST"... "one with God", and "seated in Heavenly Places"... AND "Christ IN YOU"< is the same as to become : "'the Temple of the Holy Spirit".
See all that?
That is God in you, and You in Christ.. so, in THIS CASE, Jesus could never say that He does not know you, as Jesus is IN YOU, if you are born again.... But that is not the case, regarding those He said he "never knew"= so "Depart from me".

 

[Behold]

That's not the point of forgiveness. Poeple want God to overlook their sins..

God has forgiven all the sin of the Born Again Believer.

God could never have joined Himself to the BELIEVER, if the Believer had any sin....

So, its YOU that has the issue with sin.... @Episkopos, which explains why you always want to talk about "sin".

The born again (CHRISTians) dont have a sin issue, because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"., on THE Cross., 2000 yrs ago.

"Jesus is the one time eternal sacrifice for Sin"., regarding ALL the Born again.

You deny the "Eternal Sacrifice for sin", when you try to prove that born again Saints, have sin, or are sinners... @Episkopos

See, you and your theology, is all about sin, and law, and self effort, and trying to be self righteous... whereas Christianity, has provided Righteousness to the Believer, through the Cross of Christ, already, and for eternity.

Welcome to : Salvation

Its the "Gift of Righteousness"....

 

[Episkopos]

God has forgiven all the sin of the Born Again Believer.

The sins that are past as the bible says.

God could never have joined Himself to the BELIEVER, if the Believer had any sin....

That's why the sin nature has to be crucified to CLEANSE from sin...not just keep forgiving a person for continual sins.

So, its YOU that has the issue with sin.... @Episkopos, which explains why you always want to talk about "sin".

You want to sweep it under the rug. Ignore it. But your sinful ego is the elephant in the room.

The born again (CHRISTians) dont have a sin issue, because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"., on THE Cross., 2000 yrs ago.

False. Men put Jesus on the cross. Are you looking to those evil men to keep Him there?

"Jesus is the one time eternal sacrifice for Sin"., regarding ALL the Born again.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. How can you get everything wrong ALL the time.

You deny the "Eternal Sacrifice for sin", when you try to prove that born again Saints, have sin, or are sinners... @Episkopos

You have a wrong grasp of things. Jesus PUT AWAY sins by His sacrifice. "to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb 9

or if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Did I make the word "sanctifieth" big enough?

See, you and your theology, is all about sin, and law, and self effort, and trying to be self righteous... whereas Christianity, has provided Righteousness to the Believer, through the Cross of Christ, already, and for eternity.

Welcome to : Salvation

Its the "Gift of Righteousness"....

All false. You have declared yourself righteous for believing a lie.

 

[Behold]

The sins that are past as the bible says.

The Cross is in the past.
Didnt you know?

So, the sin of the born again, is on Christ who died 2000 yrs ago.

So, that is not "past sins" are forgiven, only........that is......all sin is in the Past and it on Christ. and 2000 yrs later, here we are "made righteous" by the "one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".
So, because all the believers sin is "on Christ" , the believer not BORN AGAIN, is "made righteous".. as a "new Creation in Christ".

The "eternal Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross" has separated the born again believer from all their sin, as "far as the east is from the West" Hebrews teaches.

Romans 4:8, .. Paul teaching,= says that God does not Charge SIN, (iniquity, transgression) against the born again. ever again.

Why not?

Because God has already Judged JESUS TO DEATH, ON THE CROSS< for all the sin of the world., already, 2000 yr ago.

So, the Born again believer's SIN, has already been judged as Christ on the Cross, paying for them all... 2000 yrs ago.

Welcome to : SALVATION

Its a "GIFT".

e. Men put Jesus on the cross.

You do realize, or maybe you can't, . that anyone who reads a NT, can read Acts 2:36, and find out that Peter said that the Jews "crucified their Messiah".

Jesus PUT AWAY sins by His sacrifice. "

Jesus became sin.. on The Cross.

"God hath MADE JESUS... TO BE SIN.. for us"..

See,............ Christ on the Cross did more then put sin away...>>He became it, for us all, and was JUDGED TO DEATH, in our place, for all our sin.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its Jesus on The Cross

John 14:6

Did I make the word "sanctifieth" big enough?

1 Corinthians 1:30 says that Jesus is become unto ALL the Believers born again....... our "redemption, sanctification, justification"..

This is what it means to become "IN CHRIST">.. as "Born... again"

You have declared yourself righteous for believing a lie.

The only One who can declare any person "righteous" is God, and how did He do it? How does He do it TODAY and Forever?

"By FAITH in Christ" that is counted by God, unto us, = as Christ's Righteousness".

Welcome to : SALVATION.

Its "the Gift of Righteousness"..

 

[Nancy]

Israel is God's people. When a person sinned against another person there was a restitution...an eye for an eye basically. But towards a holy God there was a life for a life. The life is in the blood. Without blood there is no cleansing...atonement. This should not be confused with forgiveness. The very fact that we all are living and breathing means God is merciful and compassionate towards us.

The blood of bulls could make people holy for the purposes of a representative covenant that was a marker for the real holiness to come. Even the temple was a physical representation of the real thing in heaven. But temporal holiness is not the same as eternal holiness. Jesus went into the holy of hollies in God's actual sanctuary there to offer His life to all who would believe INTO Him to be where He is. So we sacrifice ourselves to partake of Christ's sacrifice. We give ourselves selflessly in order to partake of the blessings of the Selfless One.

Whoever seeks to save his/her own life will lose it, but whoever loses his/her life for Christ will find it.




Our sin NATURE is nailed to His cross....so we can be raised into Christ who knew no sin. In Him is no sin. There is no sin in the life of Christ that we are translated into. Whoever believes INTO Christ HAS eternal life...His life.

Jesus bought back His fallen creation...with His blood. God can forgive sins...but He can't stop us from being sinful and selfish because we have free will. As Paul said...he WANTED to walk in holiness BUT there was a sin nature pulling him back into the world.

So he needed to be saved from, delivered, set free, liberated...from his sin nature in order to walk in holiness with God. Thanks be to God in Christ.


Sorry to hear of your loneliness...

We need to be forgiven many times...there is no event that says...now you are forever forgiven and you never need to be forgiven again.

God's mercies are daily.

But we can be freed from sin and sinning, through the cross. One must surrender to God and be accepted as one willing to leave this world behind to enter into Christ. That is where the faith comes in. Do you trust that one day in His courts is better than a thousand elsewhere? If you believe that then you will cry out with ALL your heart till God hears you and translates you into the kingdom of His Dear Son.



They only know as much as a carnal man can misunderstand things through a religious indoctrination. Just look at the offspring of these fake ministries we see on display here. The religious system is set up to promote success in numbers and money.


Very sad. I'm trying to do my part to wake people up to the truth..humble themselves, reject indoctrinating practices...etc..

And likewise blessing to you, my sister! I pray that the eyes of your understanding would take in the fulness of the truth so that you would know the height and depth of God's love for those who choose to forsake a worldly agenda for that of His eternal will.

I have watched part of your video again, bout half and am now seeing/understanding the likeness between "deror" and "aphesis"- Freedom, liberty and nothing about forgiveness. Amen.
Hebrews 13:12 also shows me the cross indeed is about sanctification of His blood. It's about cleansing and well as atonement, amen!

Where does repentance come into play here Epi? Is it a one time deal to you or whenever we miss the mark...?

I still want to look deeper at the sin vs sin "nature" being nailed up.

 

[Nancy]

You just accused me of not being a Christian. of not being born again. ("Redeemed into Christ").. you posted.

See your post?
That was not a good idea.

We are not allowed to say that, regarding other members of this forum., according to the Forum Rules

@Episkopos @Nancy, @Rita

Brother, do you not see your own insults? You do the same. You last I read called him a deceiver and all sorts of words denoting that he is not a Christian.
I will not be pulled into ANY finger pointing or petty arguments. Say your say and leave it please, no need to keep bringing up past things said over and over again.
I've nothing more to say unless it's germane to the subject.

 

[Episkopos]

I have watched part of your video again, bout half and am now seeing/understanding the likeness between "deror" and "aphesis"- Freedom, liberty and nothing about forgiveness. Amen.
Hebrews 13:12 also shows me the cross indeed is about sanctification of His blood. It's about cleansing and well as atonement, amen!

Where does repentance come into play here Epi? Is it a one time deal to you or whenever we miss the mark...?

I still want to look deeper at the sin vs sin "nature" being nailed up.

Repentance is about our attitude. We change direction...return, repent towards God in both righteousness...the lower level and holiness...the higher level. In the higher repentance we get revival...being translated into the heavenly walk. But we can acknowledge our sinfulness like the Publican who beat his chest...and he was justified on the righteousness level...no revival or translation into heaven!

 

[Lambano]

God can’t just forgive. Being the perfect judge. His justice demands a payment

Oh? Read the parable of the Unforgiving Servant. It's in Matthew 18:23-35.

27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Was the slave who imprisoned his debtor for failure to pay back a loan of 3 months wages right for doing so? He was doing just what you say God does.

Do you recognize this prayer?

Forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.

I'm sure you're not going to accuse God of hypocrisy for demanding we do something He is unwilling to do himself. Right?

 

[Episkopos]

Brother, do you not see your own insults? You do the same. You last I read called him a deceiver and all sorts of words denoting that he is not a Christian.
I will not be pulled into ANY finger pointing or petty arguments. Say your say and leave it please, no need to keep bringing up past things said over and over again.
I've nothing more to say unless it's germane to the subject.

Behold always misrepresents what I say. When I invite him to seek for God it's for the higher walk. I assume everyone here is a believer. But we need to get sorted out. Better now than on judgment day. So the scriptures are profitable for instruction, reproof and even rebuke into a righteous attitude...learning righteousness. IF they are heeded. If they are properly understood.

Of course many have been indoctrinated into a scheme that bears no instruction, study, or even discussion. For these its all or nothing.

My approach is very nuanced...from faith to Faith, from glory to GLORY. From an immature walk in the carnal condition to the higher walk in the Spirit of holiness.

But to get any truth across I have to correct the false assumptions, presumptions and watering down of the gospel that fills the pews. I have no agenda...I don't need a certain amount of pew sitters to pay the bills... etc.. I am free to speak the truth...but in love.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus sacrificed Himself by entering the holy of holies...not the forgiveness of forgivenesses. Don't be fooled by the carnal agenda of the self-interested ones.

The cross is about sanctification. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh? Read the parable of the Unforgiving Servant. It's in Matthew 18:23-35.

27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Was the slave who imprisoned his debtor for failure to pay back a loan of 3 months wages right for doing so? He was doing just what you say God does.

Do you recognize this prayer?

Forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.

I'm sure you're not going to accuse God of hypocrisy for demanding we do something He is unwilling to do himself. Right?

This is god talking about forgiving each other

That’s different than justification which is a court term.

The death penalty is a death penalty. That’s the debt you owe god. The wage of sin is death

The gift of God isLife through Christ (blood)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus sacrificed Himself by entering the holy of holies...not the forgiveness of forgivenesses. Don't be fooled by the carnal agenda of the self-interested ones.

The cross is about sanctification. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Yes

He entered the holy of holy place and covered the ark with his blood in the offering of atonement

The things which God has against us is covered

The cross is about atonement about paying the cost to restore mankind to right standing with God

 

[Cassandra]

Jesus sacrificed Himself by entering the holy of holies...not the forgiveness of forgivenesses. Don't be fooled by the carnal agenda of the self-interested ones.

The cross is about sanctification. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Isn't that justification? When we accept Christ, we become new creatures. And then We grow spiritually. That is sanctification. We are in different stages of spiritual growth, yet are still saved, if we continue to follow the light we are given.

 

[Lambano]

I have watched part of your video again, bout half and am now seeing/understanding the likeness between "deror" and "aphesis"- Freedom, liberty and nothing about forgiveness. Amen.

I'm interested in the lexical problem. The verb form of "aphesis" (ἄφεσις) is "aphiemi" (ἀφίημι), and it literally means, "to let go". As Johann has correctly pointed out, aphiemi is the word used in verses where the context HAS to mean "to forgive" - but it also is used where the context can only mean "to set free". ("Letting go" works in both Greek and modern English vernacular.)

So, in the noun form and relating to Sin or sins, which is correct in context, "Liberation (from)" or "Forgiveness (of or from)"?

 

[Episkopos]

Isn't that justification?

Holiness is on another level of justification...a higher righteousness. God doesn't judge the world by the standard of holiness....but on what they have done with what they have been given. Loving others as ourselves. On that level ALL the earth will be judged.

Holiness is about walking as Jesus walked without sin. VERY FEW will walk like that. Jesus said that the narrow way was very difficult.

When we accept Christ, we become new creatures.

When God accepts us we are born of the Spirit. We have an experience of holiness and eternal life as a sample of what it's like to walk like that. If we want to have that life...we will have to pay the cost of entering into it. Like buying oil for the lamp. Of course we can last awhile with the original gift of grace. But there is also a throne of grace where we go to BUY the full measure of grace that lasts us until we fail grace.

And then We grow spiritually. That is sanctification.

No, that is growth into Christ-likeness in character...in righteousness. No one can grow INTO holiness. Holiness is to be where God is...in His presence....that we may partake of HIS holiness. We are never holy of ourselves.

We are in different stages of spiritual growth, yet are still saved, if we continue to follow the light we are given.

Yes. But most believers are in a transitional walk between being under the law and under grace. Like the wilderness walk we read about in the book of Exodus. From there we can be led by the Spirit and enjoy times of refreshing from the Lord. If we want to walk in holiness we need to offer ourselves to God in full surrender. He decides if we are accepted into the Beloved or not.

 

[Lambano]

This is god talking about forgiving each other

That’s different than justification which is a court term.

If a debt is paid, it's not forgiven, so the word "forgiveness" does not apply and should not be used when talking about sins. That's why the "debt" conceptual model doesn't work.

Now, if you're going to talk about "justification", I recommend NT Wright's book titled the same. "Justification" is a forensic term that means the judge has declared someone "in the right". If someone claims that it doesn't matter who gets punished for a crime, the guilty man or the innocent man, as long as SOMEBODY gets punished, then justice has been done, they not only run up against the Ezekiel quote, they run up against every reasonable concept of "Justice" there is. So the "Justice" conceptual model doesn't work either.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm interested in the lexical problem. The verb form of "aphesis" (ἄφεσις) is "aphiemi" (ἀφίημι), and it literally means, "to let go". As Johann has correctly pointed out, aphiemi is the word used in verses where the context HAS to mean "to forgive" - but it also is used where the context can only mean "to set free". ("Letting go" works in both Greek and modern English vernacular.)

So, in the noun form and relating to Sin or sins, which is correct in context, "Liberation (from)" or "Forgiveness (of or from)"?

The original scriptures are in Hebrew. Jesus quotes the scripture...in Hebrew that describes what He came to do. So then its better to go to the Hebrew in Is. 61:1. The writers of the NT translated the word "deror"...liberty as "aphesis". So we have to continue to translate that word in the same way...as liberty.

Some will argue that aphesis is used in the context of the sabbath release (7 years) and the Jubilee (50 years). But the word there for release from debt is shemitah NOT deror. Deror is used only as a freedom from bondage...not a forgiving of debt.

Those who are unlearned and uncareful will confuse these two words...thereby sidelining the gospel is favour of what the flesh wants...freebies. The wicked want forgiveness without holiness. But Jesus died to sanctify a people for Himself.

 

[Behold]

Brother, do you not see your own insults? You do the same. You last I read called him a deceiver

I referred to Him as a deceiver because the teaching that "'the Cross is not about Forgiveness" is deception.

He's stated this more then 10x on this Thread, and not just on this one, and that statement insults the Cross of Christ.

How can it not?

It should not be allowed.

Dont you agree @Nancy ?