The social gospel?

[Episkopos]

Good example. "Cleansing" is HOLINESS language, whereas "Forgiving" is RELATIONAL language.

I went through a long discussion about Atonement theory with a brother who came to Christ from a Buddhist perspective, which prompted me to do some research in the Theology books. One of the things about Penal Substitution theory that doesn't make sense is WHY Jesus's death would be necessary for forgiveness? If you're going to forgive somebody, forgive them. And before the usual howling about "God's Justice demands that somebody must pay!", that's easily refuted biblically by Ezekiel 18:20 ("The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.") and Jesus's parable of the unforgiving servant who would have to be considered in the right for demanding payment of a 500 denarii debt.

Atonement itself, going back to the OT sacrificial model, IS about holiness. But yet I do see some overlap with forgiveness. I also see IDENTITY. Jesus in His death identified with us in our sinfulness. We in our lives are to identify with Him.

To attach forgiveness to atonement means you don't think that God is forgiving by nature. We are told that we are to forgive 70 x 7. Does God expect us to be more forgiving than He is. Do we have people saying that the mercies of mankind are eternal? Really?

I think people underestimate how much God has to put with. Look at all the sin in the world. And it's still not yet enough to overturn God's mercy. But there is coming a day when God will say ENOUGH.

 

[Behold]

To attach forgiveness to atonement

The redemption that is found IN Christ, that is the Forgiveness of All Sin, is the reason the Blood of Jesus was shed that is the Blood Atonement, that is the Cross of Christ.

See, if the Blood of Jesus, that is the "new Covenant", that is the blood atonement, did not forgive all sin, then there could be no eternal spiritual union between a Believer and G

ALL Sin, has to be forgiven, and the Blood of Jesus, is this..

= "without the shedding of Blood, there is no Forgiveness, remission, redemption".. for anyone.

Welcome to : THE CROSS of CHRIST.

 

[Episkopos]

Not True.

Jesus said...>>>>"Father i will do YOUR WILL"... and that will of God was for Jesus to Die on the Cross for the Sin of the World.

John 3:16
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 3:17

Read it sometime, in a bible.....

Jesus was BORN for this SACRIFICE, and God caused Him to be born into this world, from a Virgin's womb, as a offering for sin..

Also.

Jesus said.....>"NO MAN, takes my Life from me (on the Cross). .I Lay it down willingly"... I am THE Sacrifice, and I decided this. .. not any MAN..

Understand @Episkopos

Him, being delivered by the determinate will and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Acts 2:23

God knew what men would do. But it was evil men who put Jesus on the cross.

Im not saying you are a hyper religious fool, but your posts are continually trying to prove it to be so. @Episkopos

I am the mirror you are seeing yourself in. I leave it to others to decide how hyper and religious you are. I don't have any interest in how far a person can stoop.

Listen..... my God, created THE Savior inside a virgin's womb, so that He would go do the Cross, for a religious sinner like you, so that your sin can be forgiven.


Believe it @Episkopos

You misrepresent God whom you do not serve but rather work against Him. God is merciful. Always has been. He didn't create man for wrath, but for friendship. Be reconciled to God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good example. "Cleansing" is HOLINESS language, whereas "Forgiving" is RELATIONAL language.

I went through a long discussion about Atonement theory with a brother who came to Christ from a Buddhist perspective, which prompted me to do some research in the Theology books. One of the things about Penal Substitution theory that doesn't make sense is WHY Jesus's death would be necessary for forgiveness? If you're going to forgive somebody, forgive them. And before the usual howling about "God's Justice demands that somebody must pay!", that's easily refuted biblically by Ezekiel 18:20 ("The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.") and Jesus's parable of the unforgiving servant who would have to be considered in the right for demanding payment of a 500 denarii debt.

Atonement itself, going back to the OT sacrificial model, IS about holiness. But yet I do see some overlap with forgiveness. I also see IDENTITY. Jesus in His death identified with us in our sinfulness. We in our lives are to identify with Him.

The wage of sin is death

How can you be made alive when the wage is death unless that wage is paid?

God can’t just forgive. Being the perfect judge. His justice demands a payment

Gods love can not overrule his justice. But it can make a way

That’s why I’m love he came to die

 

[Episkopos]

The redemption that is found IN Christ, that is the Forgiveness of All Sin, is the reason the Blood of Jesus was shed that is the Blood Atonement, that is the Cross of Christ.

See, if the Blood of Jesus, that is the "new Covenant", that is the blood atonement, did not forgive all sin, then there could be no eternal spiritual union between a Believer and G

ALL Sin, has to be forgiven, and the Blood of Jesus, is this..

= "without the shedding of Blood, there is no Forgiveness, remission, redemption".. for anyone.

Welcome to : THE CROSS of CHRIST.

Without the blood there is no cleansing, liberation, freedom, from sin. Since you have no idea what that entails...having never experienced any cleansing...you have diverted the cross to your needs...namely that you realize you are under sin unless your beliefs get you off the hook. So the devil offers you a scheme that gives you immunity from prosecution from sin (a lie)...and you jump at it.

And yet it's not too late for you to repent and be actually redeemed into Christ. Will you? It's hard once you have drunk from the cup of religious hubris that intoxicates you and throw that away for a cup of water even if it is the water of life.

 

[Behold]

Him, being delivered by the determinate will and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Acts 2:23

Notice the verse is not talking to Roman Centurions? @Episkopos

And notice that your hands were not born yet, when "hands crucified" Jesus?

Go and read Acts 2:36 .

Peter is talking to Jews at Pentecost............and said to those JEWS........>" whom YOU have Crucified"" (Jesus).

And those Jews responded.....>>>"what must/shall WE Do"...?

So, as i said, you are not much of a bible student, and you explained that to us, when you said that the bible is "man made agenda".

And that perfectly explains why you dont even know anything about the most basic Christian doctrine, or any of the NT Scriptures.. @Episkopos

I am the mirror you are seeing yourself in.

You literally sound insane when you post something like that @Episkopos ,

Perhaps, you should take a walk, or at least consider what you are about to post next to us...., before you post something that is "kinda nutz"., again... @Episkopos

 

[Behold]

Without the blood there is no

Without the shedding of Jesus's Blood, on the Cross, as the "one time eternal sacrifice for sin".. there is no forgiveness for sin.

And until the unbeliever is forgiven ALL their sin, = by the "one time Eternal Sacrifice of Jesus for sin".. then they are not FORGIVEN.

And if they die "UNFORGIVEN", they died having committed the unpardonable sin. ..

Dont be that one, reader.

 

[Johann]

Hey...



You can thank God every day for His forgiveness...because God is merciful. It's His nature to give and give and give, without expecting in return. God is a selfless Giver that's why He loves a cheerful giver.

When it comes to the cross and those who are looking to continue in sin with God's blessing ...that's where I draw the line. And that's where the biblical line is breached and destroyed.

Jesus came to make us holy...not forgive us since Jesus didn't have to die to make God merciful.

So the mercy has always been there. We can thank God for His many mercies all day.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

But the cross is about bringing us into an intimate walk with God who is holy. Without holiness none can see God...or walk with Him.

Of course we can follow Christ without holiness....from any distance we are comfortable with. But it's when people overturn the truth to self-justify and belittle God's work and character. That's what gets people cut off, or spit out.

When people try pretending they are something they are not, or as one person says...claim to be something the same way God does...calling something real that isn't yet real...well, that is hypocrisy.


Is it just ignorance? Or is there something more sinister at work?

Jesus blamed the Pharisees for not only not being able to enter into the kingdom...but stopping others from entering also. I hope that the more meek members are able to see through the charades and facades presented here and learn a little more about the truth.

Anyway that is my prayer.

Jesus came to make us holy...not forgive us since Jesus didn't have to die to make God merciful.

Your statement "Jesus came to make us holy... not forgive us since Jesus didn't have to die to make God merciful" reflects a misunderstanding of Christian theology and biblical teachings. Here are the key points to consider:

Biblical Teachings on Forgiveness and Atonement
Jesus' Purpose: According to the New Testament, Jesus' mission involved both making believers holy and providing forgiveness for sins through His sacrificial death. This dual purpose is clearly articulated in several passages:

1 John 1:7: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Hebrews 10:10: "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Forgiveness and Sacrifice: The idea that Jesus didn't need to die to make God merciful misunderstands the theological concept of atonement. The sacrificial death of Jesus is central to Christian theology because it addresses the issue of sin and its consequences:

Romans 3:23-25: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
Theological Principles
God's Mercy and Justice: Christian theology holds that God's mercy and justice are both satisfied through the sacrifice of Jesus. God's mercy is extended to sinners through forgiveness, while His justice is upheld because the penalty for sin is borne by Christ:

Romans 5:8-9: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
2 Corinthians 5:21: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Holiness and Forgiveness: The process of becoming holy (sanctification) and being forgiven of sins are interconnected in Christian theology. Forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice initiates the believer’s journey toward holiness:

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

Your statement "Jesus came to make us holy... not forgive us since Jesus didn't have to die to make God merciful" is incomplete and theologically imprecise. According to the New Testament, Jesus' sacrificial death serves to both forgive sins and enable believers to pursue holiness. His death is essential to the Christian understanding of salvation, addressing both God's mercy and justice, and enabling believers to be reconciled to God and transformed into His likeness.

You have a backward ideology and ἕτερον εὐαγγέλιον (heteron euangelion) and I don't care if @Nancy "like" you @Episkopos

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus has all my sin, as otherwise i'd not be born again.

This is what you call deflection brother

I asked a question a yea or not question

Do you still sin yes or now

If you say yes. We agree

If you say no. John says you are deceived

So I will move on unless you are willing to answer

 

[Behold]

Do you still sin yes or now

If you can't understand what im showing you, that is not me deflecting anything.

Understand?


Listen, I dont confess sin, 1 John 3:9 (KJV).... because Jesus has become all my sin on The Cross, and ive become the "righteousness of God, in Christ"... Just like every other Born again Believer.

There is no sin found in "God's righteousness" and all the born again are become a "new Creation in Christ" as "THE Righteousness of God, in Christ".

This is why your bible told you, that ..

"As JESUS IS.....so are the born again.. IN THIS WORLD"..

So, is Jesus a sinner? = Not quite., and all the born again are "IN Christ".

Welcome to : SALVATION

Jesus is the "ONE TIME.. ,.Eternal Sacrifice for sin"... so, He is my Eternal Sacrifice.

Understand?

= ETERNAL sacrifice. for SIN... not a temporary.. and not... "only if i confess it"..

Have you ever read this verse? = "where sin abounds, GRACE MORE Abounds"?

That is explaining that the "eternal sacrifice for SIN", is "ONE TIME", and its JESUS.

If a believer is confessing what Jesus has become as the Eternal Sacrifice for it, then that believer has no understanding of The Cross of Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Notice the verse is not talking to Roman Centurions? @Episkopos

Not in this case. Peter is showing the culpability of the mob that shouted...crucify Him. For these people they must repent and believe in Jesus or perish. They indeed have Jesus' blood on their hands. If they were already forgiven as you suggest, then they would not have to repent. Notice that Peter did not go up to the Roman fortress Antonia and demand they repent.

And notice that your hands were not born yet, when "hands crucified" Jesus?

Hands born again? I think you are mixing things together.

Go and read Acts 2:36 .

Peter is talking to Jews at Pentecost............and said to those JEWS........>" whom YOU have Crucified"" (Jesus).

That's right. Jesus forgave the ROMANS, but the Jews had the greater sin. It was repent or die for these. Some of those same Romans would go on to become believers later on..so that it was Romans legionaries that spread the gospel to places like England.

And those Jews responded.....>>>"what must WE Do"...?

As they should.

So, as i said, you are not much of a bible student, and you explained that to us, when you said that the bible is "man made agenda".

If you weren't such a liar, you would be merely just a poor bible student.

And that perfectly explains why you dont even know anything about the most basic Christian doctrine, or any of the NT Scriptures.. @Episkopos

The most basic decoy gospel slogan? I know them all and reject them all. I know where they are from.

You sound insane when you post something like that @Episkopos ,

Perhaps, you should take a walk, or at least consider what you are about to post, before you post something that is "kinda nutz"., again... @Episkopos

Spiritual things are foolishness to the carnal man. They can sound "kinda nutz" to the dilettante. But you want to "spiritualize" slogans that deny the truth. So I correct you. No need to thank me.

 

[Episkopos]

Without the shedding of Jesus's Blood, on the Cross, as the "one time eternal sacrifice for sin".. there is no forgiveness for sin.

And until the unbeliever is forgiven ALL their sin, = by the "one time Eternal Sacrifice of Jesus for sin".. then they are not FORGIVEN.

And if they die "UNFORGIVEN", they died having committed the unpardonable sin. ..

Dont be that one, reader.

False mischaracterization of God that smokescreens the true gospel. Don't allow your self-interest, self-preservation, self-defense mechanisms of the flesh overturn a decision from the inner man of faith to break free from the bondage of the flesh and the grasp of the devil into the waiting arms of He who loved you and gave His life for you.

Give your life to God in Jesus Christ. Be saved from this wicked generation...and from the power of the flesh that has you do the bidding of the devil at every turn.

PS: The devil hates that word "liberation" from sin. Hates, hates, hates. Watch how the self-seekers also, through self-interest, also hate the gospel of LIBERATION from the bondage of sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God sent Jesus into the world knowing He would die at the hands of sinful men. God was in Christ. God did NOT put Jesus to death. We did that.

You give us to much credit

Your god is evil. Your god is selfish and rewards selfishness and self-interest.

Your god has no power and can not even keep his own justice

False. God is sacrificial and self-less. Those who want to exploit Jesus...as you and some here do...will find Jesus saying...go away you lawless ones. What you promote is lawlessness. That is the truth of it.

Why do you reject the meaning of the cross?

 

[Lizbeth]

Thank you Epi,
I know you dig really deep and I do know that the cross was for several reasons. What of 1 John 1:7? "7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yes, God sure did forgive, incessantly, for centuries! But, without blood there is no remission of sins so this is where I need to include it. His blood was poured out for us for sanctification, absolution, and I believe also forgiving our initial sins and from there we learn to walk abiding in Him. I find myself giving thanks FOR His forgiveness if I slip up and just rest in that although, my sorrow for "missing the mark" is still there and a lifetime of asking for forgiveness over and over again was folly. Like God is in a swivel chair turning away from us till we ask forgiveness, then He swivels back to us again...that is insanity.

I won't state that I understand all you have to say but, that is just normal for me, lol.

I appreciate your reply brother, thank you.

You are right.....bible says His blood cleanseth us from all sin, and that it also justifies/exonerates us. We have had the bath and just need to have our feet washed now and then if they get soiled......we examine ourselves before taking the Lord's supper and keep short accounts with Him. Just keep sticking with the Lord and with His word sister. God is not the author of confusion (that is from the enemy).....God's word is EASY to be intreated, revealed to little children and hid from the wise and learned.

Honestly though, just in response to that part, I do believe we need to repent if we are aware of having erred in some way, and that is at least for the purpose of cleansing our conscience, to restore us from our end, even if it is not something on a level so as to grieve the Lord in a major way.

 

[Episkopos]

Have you ever read this verse? = "where sin abounds, GRACE MORE Abounds"?

That is explaining that the "eternal sacrifice for SIN", is "ONE TIME", and its JESUS.

That's not what Paul said. Again, as per usual you misunderstand the words of Paul. Where sin is great (increased) the grace that overcomes it is greater (increased more). This means that we overcome sin by grace through faith. Same message as elsewhere.

If a believer is confessing what Jesus has become as the Eternal Sacrifice for it, then that believer has no understanding of The Cross of Christ.

A rare admission on your part.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you can't understand what im showing you, that is not me deflecting anything.

Understand?

What I understand is you are deflecting

Whatever

If you think you are sinless you are deceived.

And since you refuse to answer. I must assume I am correct in what you think

So good luck in your self righteousness

 

[Behold]

. Peter is showing the culpability of the mob

Not the Mob.... wrong again.

But the Jews who were at Pentecost.. who heard Peter's preaching and were told....>"you have slain your messiah, you've crucified Him".

And they said.....those Jews said to Peter the JEW...>>"what must we do". , as they realized they crucified their Messiah....

That's right. Jesus forgave the ROMANS,

Jesus wasn't talking to Romans., deceiver.

Christ was talking to the Jews who said...>>"if you are the Son of God, let us see you come off those nails, Mr Messiah". (Paraphrase).

Jews said that to JESUS....... and Jesus said .. "Father forgive them".

If you weren't such a liar,

I would not do that..

And when i have shown you, your own Cross Rejecting words, when ive posted them to @Nancy ..... where you deny that "The Cross is about forgiveness", and when ive posted your own words whereby you spit on Jesus, by saying He's :"Whipping Boy"...
So, what ive done is shown that you are a Cross rejecting Deceiver, according to your own words... and you're proud of it.. @Episkopos .

Spiritual things are foolishness to the carnal man.

And you're "the man"... absolutely.

 

[Behold]

And yet it's not too late for you to repent and be actually redeemed into Christ.

You just accused me of not being a Christian. of not being born again. ("Redeemed into Christ").. you posted.

See your post?
That was not a good idea.

We are not allowed to say that, regarding other members of this forum., according to the Forum Rules

@Episkopos @Nancy, @Rita

 

[Behold]

PS: The devil hates that word "liberation" from sin.

Ive never used that word in any post ive written to you, or in any Thread ive ever posted on any Forum.. including this one.

You are again, more then confused.... @Episkopos

 

[Behold]

If you think you are sinless you are deceived.

The Cross of Christ is the Proof that Jesus has all my sin... @Eternally Grateful
Thats not "deception", that's Salvation.

"God hath made Jesus to be SIN... for US".. ................and not just some of it.

A.) "US".. is all the believer's born again.

So, if Christ does not have ALL your sin, then you have it, and if you have it, its not forgive by Christ's Sacrifice Yet.... Reader.