The social gospel?

[Episkopos]

You can't ever deflect what you've said about "the Cross not being about Forgiveness"..........
So, You can give that up.

also, any reader here... can read my 2 previous posts, carefully, and find out for themselves, what you can't understand, yet.

Notice..
Paul was not teaching that He was suddenly a sinner.........and that is realized when He told us He was a Pharisee, "blameless in the Law".
So, He was a grown man, "blameless in the Law".. .and he would have known the "law", to become a Pharisee, and be "blameless in it", .. He would understand what he's saying.

Also, Paul understands Grace, and "made righteous".. and He knows that "it is not sin when you dont know it".
So Paul knew the Law, and was "blameless".
And Notice that he said He was the "chief of sinners", yet this is related to helping Murder Christians, before Paul became one.... and he thought this was a righteous work.........not a sin.

So, why refer to Himself as a "chief of sinners" when at the time he didnt perceive that getting rid of "heretic Christians" was anything other then a Righteous Deed.

See that?

So, Paul often talks in this spiritual way., that can't be read like a dictionary.... and that is why Peter said that some of what Paul teaches, is "hard to understand".

More obfuscation...rinse and repeat. I ask those who read this thread to note that @Behold has no understanding at all of the doctrine he claims to know about. An utter waste of words...all obfuscation and no truth.

If one wants to teach what Paul speaks of in Romans one must be able to answer a simple question...

Why, in Romans 7 does Paul say...sin revived and I died?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are missing the point. They asked Jesus what THEY COULD DO to do the works of God. Jesus corrected them...as I'm correcting you... It is the work of God that you can believe INTO Jesus. No man can assume or name and claim it as so many do here.

No

You are missing the point

Jesus said work for the food which endures forever.

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

In other words. Do not work or labor for food which perishes, but for food which endures to eternal life.

THEN (in this context) they asked "what work can we do"

they said this comming from a law background, and misreading the law and thinking it is by their works or good deeds they are saved.

Jesus is correcting them, It is the work of God

in other words. THERE IS NO WORK YOU CAN DO

and what is the work? To have faith.

Faith is what will give eternal life.. Not works.

You assume that because you believe ABOUT Jesus that somehow that makes you born again.

I believe that my FAITH in jesus what jesus gave me the gift of eternal life. Please if your going to tell what I believe, at least get it right.

Not so.

Well I will not get eternal life by working. Thats not the food which endures forever.

And Jesus is not going to give me my works..

To believe INTO Jesus is a miracle of God, a work of God, so that you walk in a heavenly realm...

No. this is not the context. the context is eating the food which will endure forever. ie the bread from heaven

Please get this walk out of your head. You can;t walk unless you are first saved. Walk is the result of being given eternal life. not the means to which it is obtained.

the realm of the Spirit, to walk as Jesus walked. Only one who is regenerated by the Spirit can even think about such things.

I agree,, But we have to be born of the psirit first. and even then, this walk will nto save us eternally,

To most they have no idea of spiritual things at all...thinking the bible is a religious book that people can justify themselves with.

yes, I understand this is what you see. and preach

But the NT is a testimonial of people who actually walked with Jesus. And we can share in that same fellowship by translation into the kingdom realm of the Spirit in Zion...where Jesus is.

Yes. So we shoudl study their words.

The apostle john quoted what jesus said

do not LABOR (work) for food which perishes (like manna or the loaves of bread and fish they ate the day before) but the food which endures forever (the bread of life sent from heaven) which He will give us

what is this bread.? Can you answer that? What all did jesus promise in this conversation in chapter 6 of John

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus Since I asked you the question first. and everyone answered for you (sort of)

The work jesus said that they must do is to believe and this is the work of God.

the reason they asked is because Jesus said, do not search for food which perishes, but food which endures forever. which he would give them.

In context. they were asking what work they could do to recieve that food.

What was the food Jesus spoke about. that would endure forever. and what does that mean?

I feel like it’s a trick question. Lol I’m scared to answer. The Fruit of the Spirit. When He said to be content if you have clothing and food —-Godliness with contentment is great gain. I think He means the clothing God provides is enough. The food He supplies is enough.(Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 2 Corinthians 3:5). Even when all else may be lacking we should be grateful we have clothing, Christ and He tends to our spiritual needs of hunger and thirst. Like when Paul was refreshed by comforting words received as good news of others or the prospering of the Kingdom of God.

2 Peter 1:4-8 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
To me that speaks of clothing and food. To where you will not go naked or hungry or thirsty. “I am the bread” “ I am the Living Water”.

I don’t think we “add” those things above unto ourselves…. Right in the passage on take no thought for what you’ll put on, or what you’ll eat or what you will drink for God knows you have need is WHO adds all of the above, as given unto us exceeding great and precious promises Matthew 6:33 But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
What things? didn’t He show the exceedingly great promises added, abounding. Yet Paul said I’m instructed to be both hungry and full…saying He knew how to be both abased and abounding.
Your question of food that doesn’t perish…I think it’s the part in “full” and satisfied “abounding” in Christ. In flesh….abased and hungry. In submission to our need for God.

Same as the whole passage Matthew 5:2-9 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[Behold]

More obfuscation...rinse and repeat. I ask those who read this thread to note that @Behold has no understanding at all of the doctrine he claims to know about.

You've not even tried to respond to my 2 longs posts that explained it.

You read both.. and said...>>"nope that's not it, everybody look"...

So, respond to my 3 detailed Posts, and i'll respond.

If not. just answer this.. I'll ask you again.

Q.) "why is it that The same Salvation through Christ, that saves the believer as born again....... always keeps them saved, no matter how they behave later"..

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes. 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Amen. Christ in us, the hope of glory.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I feel like it’s a trick question. Lol I’m scared to answer.

No sis it is not. I do not get into those types of questions, they do not do anyone any good. I just want to discuss what Jesus said and why..

The Fruit of the Spirit. When He said to be content if you have clothing and food —-Godliness with contentment is great gain. I think He means the clothing God provides is enough. The food He supplies is enough.(Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 2 Corinthians 3:5). Even when all else may be lacking we should be grateful we have clothing, Christ and He tends to our spiritual needs of hunger and thirst. Like when Paul was refreshed by comforting words received as good news of others or the prospering of the Kingdom of God.

2 Peter 1:4-8 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
To me that speaks of clothing and food. To where you will not go naked or hungry or thirsty. “I am the bread” “ I am the Living Water”.

I don’t think we “add” those things above unto ourselves…. Right in the passage on take no thought for what you’ll put on, or what you’ll eat or what you will drink for God knows you have need is WHO adds all of the above, as given unto us exceeding great and precious promises Matthew 6:33 But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
What things? didn’t He show the exceedingly great promises added, abounding. Yet Paul said I’m instructed to be both hungry and full…saying He knew how to be both abased and abounding.
Your question of food that doesn’t perish…I think it’s the part in “full” and satisfied “abounding” in Christ. In flesh….abased and hungry. In submission to our need for God.

Same as the whole passage Matthew 5:2-9 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

May I ask (just trying to see what your thinking)

The fruit of the spirit. is this a food you can eat and recieve these things

1. You will never hunger or thirst.
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

2. They will never die
John 6: 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

The fruit of the spirit to me is the fruit we produce when we are doing the work of God. Its not what we eat. does this make sense? Again, I am not trying to trick you)

 

[Behold]

You assume that because you believe ABOUT Jesus that somehow that makes you born again.

Jesus said "all that believe in me, i give unto you eternal Life, and you shall never perish".

What is that? That is Jesus joining Himself to the forgiven Believer, as that Spiritual Union "in Christ" is where "eternal life" exists.

Notice this. .verse..

Jesus said..... "you must be born again"

Who qualifies for that "birth".?

all These.. = "Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

A.) Save sinners = "all that believe in me i give unto you eternal life", and that is to have become "Born again" "In Christ" as that is where eternal life exists for the Believer, who is born again.

Jesus is Eternal life........So, to become "in Christ".. is based on ........

= God accepts our Faith, to then give us the spiritual birth, after forgiving out sin, .. and then we become "seated in heavenly places" "In Christ".. "One with God".

God does that.......all of that for the BELIEVER.

"All that Believe in JESUS, shall be saved"... And "shall be saved" is to have become a "new Creation" "in Christ".. "born again".

 

[PS95]

Why, in Romans 7 does Paul say...sin revived and I died?

Paul says that because we die to sin daily, putting to death the works of the flesh as the Spirit leads us.
Sanctification.

 

[Behold]

the kingdom realm of the Spirit in Zion...where Jesus is.

What you wrote..
= No such thing exists in a NT.

There is no such thing as "the Spirit in Zion", except in your religious fantasy.

Your imagination, along with some Mormon teaching (walking in Zion)... is quite a blend of religious "sound".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No sis it is not. I do not get into those types of questions, they do not do anyone any good. I just want to discuss what Jesus said and why..

May I ask (just trying to see what your thinking)

The fruit of the spirit. is this a food you can eat and recieve these things

1. You will never hunger or thirst.
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

2. They will never die
John 6: 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

The fruit of the spirit to me is the fruit we produce when we are doing the work of God. Its not what we eat. does this make sense? Again, I am not trying to trick you)

I don’t know. When my daughter called last night it was refreshing. There are things of the Spirit which renew and refresh and comfort …do we ever taste it? Do we ever drink? Do we ever eat this food He speaks of? Hungering and thirsting for it even? I think about …it was for the joy set before Him (a friend is in from a long journey and I have nothing to set before him, can you lend me some bread?) that He endured the cross, despising the shame, having sat down at the right hand of the Father.

He said the bread …which He said “I am that bread” is for your health. Why would the body neglect the health. Is it because it sounds gluttonous to eat of the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Sharing the Fruit of the Spirit within the body for nourishment of the body of Christ, seems to be the point. Nourishing itself (a body of many members) in love. I can tell you that I don’t know how there can be the Fruit of the Spirit of God and not taste nourishment and comfort and refreshment. It’s going to bring rejoicing. A renewal. Whether it was our bearing Fruit to not drink of that Fruit…it seems impossible not to taste rejoicing when and if it comes.

You ask the hard questions.
It’s hard to explain but in Paul seeking first Christ in them, the result is Paul is just as much a partaker(with them) of the Fruit . Hence…seek Him first…then these things will be added unto you… like planting a seed of a Fruit tree, nourishing it to maturity, is it wrong to have joy when the tree bears its Fruit. I don’t think so. But there is joy all around for the Fruit is in season!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul says that because we die to sin daily, putting to death the works of the flesh as the Spirit leads us.
Sanctification.

is this what he was talking about on romans 7?

 

[PS95]

is this what he was talking about on romans 7?

I assume...? see what he says

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don’t know. When my daughter called last night it was refreshing. There are things of the Spirit which renew and refresh and comfort …do we ever taste it? Do we ever drink? Do we ever eat this food He speaks of?

I think we better. If this is the food which we can eat and never die. should it not be our first priority?

Hungering and thirsting for it even? I think about …it was for the joy set before Him (a friend is in from a long journey and I have nothing to set before him, can you lend me some bread?) that He endured the cross, despising the shame, having sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Yes, But he said we will no longer hunger or thirst. and live forever. What does this mean?

He said the bread …which He said “I am that bread” is for your health.

Is it? Or is it for our life?

Why would the body neglect the health. Is it because it sounds gluttonous to eat of the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Sharing the Fruit of the Spirit within the body for nourishment of the body of Christ, seems to be the point. Nourishing itself (a body of many members) in love. I can tell you that I don’t know how there can be the Fruit of the Spirit of God and not taste nourishment and comfort and refreshment. It’s going to bring rejoicing. A renewal. Whether it was our bearing Fruit to not drink of that Fruit…it seems impossible not to taste rejoicing when and if it comes.

Oh I agree.. why would we neglect that. This physical body needs food. and needs nourished.. Our spiritual body does also.

You ask the hard questions. It’s hard to explain

Sorry, I do not mean to But I think Jesus gave us the easy answer did he not?

but in Paul seeking first Christ in them, the result is Paul is just as much a partaker(with them) of the Fruit . Hence…seek Him first…then these things will be added unto you… like planting a seed of a Fruit tree, nourishing it to maturity, is it wrong to have joy when the tree bears its Fruit. I don’t think so. But there is joy all around for the Fruit is in season!

Again, Is this fruit the fruit or food Jesus spoke of. i do not think so. I think he is speaking about a different food. Even the fruit of the spirit. it can die. and it will not sustain our eternal life.. will it?

I quoted part of this verse. Here I will quote the whole conversation in this one part.

5 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The words I have highlighted, what do they mean?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I assume...? see what he says

he is talking about the flesh vs the spirit. being under the law vs not being under the law. and the struggle he had.

 

[PS95]

he is talking about the flesh vs the spirit. being under the law vs not being under the law. and the struggle he had.

Honestly, IDK what his point on this thread is. I think he may believe that Christians don't believe in sanctification, and that we think sinning is A-OK, but I could be way off!
I am sure that if forgiveness thru grace isn't first received, then nothing that is said matters.
I haven't read all of this thread. I find it confusing. I was hoping to get to the point! does that make sense?

 

[marks]

It sure is! The first few weeks when I had all of this come out, I was a different person every day almost but it has settled down now and I guess I am in for the long slog. Two sources of therapy lined up now though. I am so grateful for the immense amount of information for free on youtube from these psychologists and coaches.

I've found that these surges of growth do in fact seem to be followed by ups and downs of intense slogging. I remain encouraged though knowing that this is real healing.

I've known sublimation in the past, I've known temporary releases, but this is I believe the real deal, real healing, which encourages me to just keep my hand to the plow, wait, and wait, and keep waiting, as my change oh so slowly comes, in between those surges.

I too am very greatful for internet sources, I've learned to much!

Now I have no questions, and trust Him 100% but have been face down in the dust a few times to get here.

I've accepted that without this sometimes horrific interventions in my life, I'd not have come to know Him. He had to near destroy me so I'd look to Him. He wounds, and He binds up. Because He loves me.

Yes I am amazed by this and the way I can read theology and feed my spirit with scripture without tiring. Everything else takes a huge effort.

I first learned about this ministering in an Alheimer's ward at a local assisted living home. The Christians in there, they wouldn't know where they were, or why they were there, but they remembered "Old Rugged Cross", every word, and their eyes would light up, and they would quote with me as I quoted Scripture, and I could see, the mind can be nearly gone, the spirit lives in Christ.

I was introduced to the 'deeper life' by finding Oswald Chambers and went on from there, seeking the crucified life. It was easy in a way because I had nothing else in this life to distract me from the search.

A.W. Tozer, Andrew Murray, these were a couple who helped me focus in more. Leo Tolstoy, "Walk in the Light while there is Light", It's a short story fiction, but it moves me deeply whenever I read it, knowing the time is short. I don't want to spoil the story if you haven't read it.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Honestly, IDK what his point on this thread is. I think he may believe that Christians don't believe in sanctification, and that we think sinning is A-OK, but I could be way off!
I am sure that if forgiveness thru grace isn't first received, then nothing that is said matters.
I haven't read all of this thread. I find it confusing. I was hoping to get to the point! does that make sense?

if your talking about Epi, he believes we are saved not from the penalty of our sin, but for a walk with God in an attempt to earn forgiveness..

or something like that

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think we better. If this is the food which we can eat and never die. should it not be our first priority?

That was the point I was trying to share …seek Him first and His Righteousness…then He supplies the food. It reminds me of
Philippians 2:19-21 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. [20] For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. [21] For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Yes, But he said we will no longer hunger or thirst. and live forever. What does this mean?

I have no clue. i think it is : we will no longer hunger or thirst after righteousness for the Lord will fill us with His Righteousness.

Is it? Or is it for our life?

Acts 27:34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

Life also.
Health and Life …are they not the same? If you prefer: the Life of the body, instead of health of the body…to me it’s the same thing. But which ever you prefer.
Isaiah 58:8-11 Then shall your shall light break forth as the morning, and your health shall spring forth speedily: and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rereward. [9] Then shall you call, and the LORD shall answer; you shall cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If you take away(remove) from the midst of you the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; [10] And if you draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and you darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the LORD shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
…goes with the topic I think of waters that fail not. I don’t know the answer you ask. Maybe I’m in a drought. But at least I’m telling you I believe He is the only true source of being satisfied.

Oh I agree.. why would we neglect that. This physical body needs food. and needs nourished.. Our spiritual body does also.

Agree.

Again, Is this fruit the fruit or food Jesus spoke of. i do not think so. I think he is speaking about a different food. Even the fruit of the spirit. it can die. and it will not sustain our eternal life.. will it?

I quoted part of this verse. Here I will quote the whole conversation in this one part.

5 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The words I have highlighted, what do they mean?

I need to get off here. If you really want me to come back to this last part I will. But I think that you are wanting me to say something particular, that you don’t feel satisfied with my answers yet. That is the trick i mentioned. I think you think I mean it’s all about the Fruit of the Spirit and not the One bears the Fruit. Or all about the food instead of He who supplies the food. Or all about “the Fruit of the Spirit” instead of God who is that Spirit? I’m not saying that. Or not meaning to come off as saying that. You did say the Fruit of the Spirit can die. I’m not sure I agree there, because to me those Fruits of the Spirit are the only thing that make it through the fire being connected to the Vine. The works of the flesh burned up.

Three reasons I question the Fruit of the Spirit can die.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abides (remains?)faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
His seed…is it not from His seed (an incorruptible seed) that Fruit of the Spirit comes out from? Then how is the Fruit which is by Christ die?

2 Corinthians 3:9-11 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[PS95]

if your talking about Epi, he believes we are saved not from the penalty of our sin, but for a walk with God in an attempt to earn forgiveness..

or something like that

oh. Well, that explains a lot. thank u. He sounds similar to a Jw in that (dis) respect. I already have my hands full with them...........

Jesus died for our sins, Epi. receive the FREE GIFT and walk in Him!

 

[marks]

Honestly, IDK what his point on this thread is. I think he may believe that Christians don't believe in sanctification, and that we think sinning is A-OK, but I could be way off!
I am sure that if forgiveness thru grace isn't first received, then nothing that is said matters.
I haven't read all of this thread. I find it confusing. I was hoping to get to the point! does that make sense?

You are reading correctly. I believe the thinking is this, that "if we believe we are in fact fully justified in Christ such that we will never again be condemned for any sin, well, we believe that way because we think it preserves our ability to sin, now without consequence, and therefore there is no requirement that we put to death the deeds of the flesh. In short, that we dishonestly believe in complete forgiveness as a fleshy way to tell ourselves we are OK and don't have to change."

Whether he actually believes that others think this way or not I cannot say. I've not seen any reason to ascribe that mentality to anyone participating on these threads. Yet as you've no doubt seen, this has been projected onto numerous people.

Much love!