The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Truth7t7]

Jesus will Return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Revelation 19:16
He will reign for a thousand years, then the new heavens and earth comes for Eternity, God with mankind. Revelation 21:1=7

Any denial of this plainly stated Bible truth, is error and will not happen.

There won't be a Millennium on this earth as you claim, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[WPM]

All tenents need not be answered if the first question is answered correctly according to God's word.
For, if the first question is answered incorrectly, then the other questions will falter if not substantiated by the correct answer of #1.

Present my statement(s) above to a true 'intellectual', preferably one who understands logic and see if they think it is gibberish.

Then again, if the intellectual who understands logic does not have the Holy Spirit, then it may come across as 'gibberish' in the same way as this:

Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.”
For with stammering(gibberish) lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.

Avoidance is avoidance even if you wrap it up and cryptic wrapping paper.

 

[David in NJ]

Avoidance is avoidance even if you wrap it up and cryptic wrapping paper.

AGREE and Good Morning Brother

 

[David in NJ]

Avoidance is avoidance even if you wrap it up and cryptic wrapping paper.

Stepping out for now AND "no avoidance"!!!

Visiting my son, will be back later in the day.

Shalom

 

[Rich R]

This is completely false.

How did Paul understand??? = from the OT Scriptures

Reread those verses. They do not say Paul understood the mystery from the OT. They in fact say that it was hidden in the OT and that Paul learned it by revelation of holy spirit.

There is nothing in Paul's letters that show that he learned about this mystery in the OT. Why? Because, as Ephesians says, it was, "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men."

 

[WPM]

Reread those verses. They do not say Paul understood the mystery from the OT. They in fact say that it was hidden in the OT and that Paul learned it by revelation of holy spirit.

There is nothing in Paul's letters that show that he learned about this mystery in the OT. Why? Because, as Ephesians says, it was, "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men."

What is the mystery, in your opinion?

 

[Rich R]

But the New Testament has a bunch of examples of exactly that... was Paul an eisegete? Matthew? Peter?

No, neither Paul, nor Matthew, nor Peter were eisegetes.

Eisegesis is reading one's own preconceived ideas into the scriptures. Where do you see Peter, Mathew or Peter reading their own ideas into the scriptures? They wrote what God told them to write. We ought to read the scriptures in the say way, just taking them for what they say without interjecting our own preconceived ideas.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One BIG problem!
Amil is not in the scriptures

It's easy to make claims like this, but can you back it up and refute Amil? This kind of claim is pointless unless you can actually refute Amil, which I don't believe you can.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do you understand:

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

Taking it for what it says, I would say that there is something about our present age that nobody knew about until it was revealed to Paul, namely something about Gentiles being fellowheirs and of one body, i.e. the church. Therefore anything read into the OT about the church is just that; reading into the scriptures, otherwise knows as eisegesis.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What does any of this have to do with what I said in my post? Did you not even read my post? Your claim that Amilllennialists use an allegorical approach to interpreting scripture is FALSE and I showed that in my post. Is there anything you don't understand about that? You didn't address anything I actually said in my post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you stumble over post #25 ?

Is there some reason why you didn't answer WPM's questions he asked in post #22? Were they too difficult for you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Avoidance is avoidance even if you wrap it up and cryptic wrapping paper.

Notice how he is afraid to even attempt to answer your questions in post #22. Looks like he's just all hot air and no substance when it comes to his claim that Amil is not taught in scripture.

 

[Rich R]

What is the mystery, in your opinion?

My opinion is irrelevant. It's laid out pretty clearly in Paul's letters. The mystery that was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul says that there is no difference between the Jew and the gentile, that they are all one (Gal 3:28). It says that the Gentiles are fellowheirs with the Jews, partakers of the promise, and that they are one body (Eph 3:6).

None of that was in the OT:

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​

​

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

There's more about the mystery in the NT, but that'll get you started. An understanding of this mystery is absolutely essential to understand God's overall plan for the ages. A lack of understanding this mystery has caused no end of confusion to many sincere students of the Bible. The scriptures simply do not fit together the way God intended without that understanding.

 

[Rich R]

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What does any of this have to do with what I said in my post? Did you not even read my post? Your claim that Amilllennialists use an allegorical approach to interpreting scripture is FALSE and I showed that in my post. Is there anything you don't understand about that? You didn't address anything I actually said in my post.

The mystery has everything to do with understanding God's plan for the ages. I understand you have no idea what I was talking about. But really it's not me you don't understand. It's the Apostle Paul you apparently don't understand. I just quoted a few verses of his. I humbly suggest you do some research on the matter. I'd be glad to get you started.

 

[Wick Stick]

No, neither Paul, nor Matthew, nor Peter were eisegetes.

Eisegesis is reading one's own preconceived ideas into the scriptures. Where do you see Peter, Mathew or Peter reading their own ideas into the scriptures? They wrote what God told them to write. We ought to read the scriptures in the say way, just taking them for what they say without interjecting our own preconceived ideas.

Well, you said that reading anything about the church into the Old Testament was eisegesis.

But the New Testament does that. It talks about Abraham becoming "a father of nations" and interprets that to be about the adoption of the Gentiles. I don't think that's eisegesis... but I do think that disproves your idea that the Old Testament doesn't talk about the church.

 

[David in NJ]

Reread those verses. They do not say Paul understood the mystery from the OT. They in fact say that it was hidden in the OT and that Paul learned it by revelation of holy spirit.

There is nothing in Paul's letters that show that he learned about this mystery in the OT. Why? Because, as Ephesians says, it was, "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men."

If you knew the Holy Scriptures you would SEE the following:

a.) the Lord Jesus Christ quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE His Authority and VALIDATE His IDENTITY
b.) the Apostle quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE the 'Church' HIDDEN in OT scripture but now REVEALED from OT scripture!
c.) BOTH the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John not only quoting OT scripture by REVEALING the HIDDEN Messiah and His Bride(Church) from OT scripture.
d.) the Apostle Peter quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE the Promised Hebrew MESSIAH and His Church from OT scripture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The mystery has everything to do with understanding God's plan for the ages. I understand you have no idea what I was talking about. But really it's not me you don't understand. It's the Apostle Paul you apparently don't understand. I just quoted a few verses of his. I humbly suggest you do some research on the matter. I'd be glad to get you started.

LOL. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Can you please address what I said in post #10? I refuted your claim about Amils supposedly taking an allegorical approach to scripture. I showed how the foundation of our doctrine is based on clear, literal, straightforward scripture. So, can you address that? The mystery of Gentiles being fellowheirs with Jews of God's promises has nothing to do with the point I was making.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My opinion is irrelevant.

Finally, you said something I agree with.

 

[WPM]

Notice how he is afraid to even attempt to answer your questions in post #22. Looks like he's just all hot air and no substance when it comes to his claim that Amil is not taught in scripture.

Exactly. They give lip service to corroboration, as he did. Premils cannot address this because to do so would force them to abandon Premil, something they are not prepared to do.

 

[Rich R]

If you knew the Holy Scriptures you would SEE the following:

a.) the Lord Jesus Christ quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE His Authority and VALIDATE His IDENTITY
b.) the Apostle quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE the 'Church' HIDDEN in OT scripture but now REVEALED from OT scripture!
c.) BOTH the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John not only quoting OT scripture by REVEALING the HIDDEN Messiah and His Bride(Church) from OT scripture.
d.) the Apostle Peter quoting OT scripture to VALIDATE the Promised Hebrew MESSIAH and His Church from OT scripture

Well the Messiah was not at all hidden in the OT. The promise of a Messiah is all over the place in the OT. The mystery, however, was very much hidden. I think that is what your point b says.

In the OT:

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​

​

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

​

In the NT:

Eph 3:5-6,

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

 

[Rich R]

Well, you said that reading anything about the church into the Old Testament was eisegesis.

But the New Testament does that. It talks about Abraham becoming "a father of nations" and interprets that to be about the adoption of the Gentiles. I don't think that's eisegesis... but I do think that disproves your idea that the Old Testament doesn't talk about the church.

Well, I should have been more specific. Yes, Abraham's promise did include many nations. However, throughout the entire OT it was the Jews who were God's chosen people. As Galatians says, the Gentiles were without God and without hope. In other words, they were definitely not part of God's chosen people, those destined to inherit the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But fast forward to the NT, and God reveals something He had up His sleeve all along, namely that the Gentile would in fact be fellowheirs and of the same body with the Jews. Notice that being fellowheirs and of the same body does not mean the church replaced Israel. They instead became one and the same. Nobody replaced anybody.