The Resurrection = the Commencement of the millennium

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,539
4,199
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some of this is utter nonsense the fact you have this thief ascending to heaven upon death when Christ Himself didn't even ascend to heaven upon death. Unless you want to propose that the following are all lies.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I'm pretty certain that the heart of the earth and hell are not even remotely meaning heaven.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This was the last statement that Christ declared in His earthly life. So, His Spirit immediately ascended to heaven to His Father, whereas His body was placed in the grave. In the three-day period of separation between body and spirit, Christ’s spirit abode in the heavenly abode, waiting for the unification of His spirit with His new incorruptible body. On the third day both parts re-unified. It was at this point that He was qualified to take the keys of hell and of death as He did; it was only then that He appeared unto the disciples in a glorified form.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour
(this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:


Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

It is finished

Whilst Matthew doesn’t identify what Christ said before He gave up the ghost John does in 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Christ didn’t need to go to hell for 3 days to be punished or to fully secure our penalty. The cross was enough.

What happened to Jesus after this?

Did He go to hell for 3 days as some say?

As soon as Christ died it seems like there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

I believe Christ's body was in the tomb for 3 days in-between His death and physical resurrection. I believe His Spirit went immediately into the presence of God. But, before that, I believe that He went descended into Hades to release all the redeemed and that they accompanying him into heaven.

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.

Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18, “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemies at the cross and gloriously rose from the dead.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some of this is utter nonsense the fact you have this thief ascending to heaven upon death when Christ Himself didn't even ascend to heaven upon death. Unless you want to propose that the following are all lies.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I'm pretty certain that the heart of the earth and hell are not even remotely meaning heaven.

I have the spirit of the thief returning to heaven after physical death, just as we read in Scripture of the spirit returning to God who gave it. The spirit that gave natural, physical life to Christ was commended into the Father's hand when Christ breathed His last. So too the spirit that gave the thief's natural, physical body life returned to God a living (spirit) soul. Because wherever life is found, whether physical or spiritual, there is a living soul. You focus only on the physical body of Christ that lay dead for three days, without even giving consideration to His spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Obviously, kingdom and paradise are meaning the same thing. Obviously, Christ never came into His kingdom upon death, and that the thief said to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. And that Christ then says---Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise--and not this instead--Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Or maybe it even could mean the latter but not the way some typically take it to mean. It could simply mean that that very day, the thief's fate was sealed and assured, that when Christ comes into his kingdom in the future, meaning when the NJ that comes down from God out of heaven, the thief will be in paradise with Him as well.

Commas were added that we might better understand. Ignore the comma's altogether, it reads, "And he said unto Jesus Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Of course Christ received His Kingdom in heaven after His body died. His spirit returned to the Father in heaven where He received a Kingdom, an everlasting dominion which shall never pass away and shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

We know the Kingdom Christ received when His spirit returned to heaven is not physical, because Christ's body still lay in the tomb dead for three days. The Kingdom Christ received in heaven is not physical, but spiritual. You don't understand the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven because you only have eyes to believe that which you can physically see. But just as Christ has told us, His Kingdom is not a visible Kingdom because it cannot be seen with natural sight.

We also know the Kingdom Christ received when His spirit returned to heaven is not of this earth because this earth shall be destroyed through the that shall come down from God out of heaven. The text is clear the Kingdom Christ received "shall not be destroyed."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,776
4,450
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Prove your point per the thief on the cross, for example, as to how a spiritual resurrection would benefit him on his deathbed.
Is this a serious question? It benefited him by the fact that he went to paradise instead of hell the day he died! I'd say that was quite a great benefit! Do you not think the thief on the cross was saved? Do you not think he passed from being dead in his sins to being spiritually alive in Christ before he died?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,776
4,450
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's too bad some interpreters seem incapable of thinking outside of the box at times. I'm not suggesting they never think outside of the box, I'm only meaning in some cases they apparently don't, otherwise they wouldn't be coming to some of the absurd conclusions they do at times, but would be using Scripture to interpret Scripture instead.

Let's take this thief on the cross, as an example, and let's then pay close attention to what the thief said and what Jesus didn't say.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There is obviously a connection here between all of these passages and what the thief said per the following below shows us how they are connected, the fact Christ never corrected him about anything, therefore, there was nothing to be corrected about.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Obviously, kingdom and paradise are meaning the same thing. Obviously, Christ never came into His kingdom upon death, and that the thief said to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. And that Christ then says---Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise--and not this instead--Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Or maybe it even could mean the latter but not the way some typically take it to mean. It could simply mean that that very day, the thief's fate was sealed and assured, that when Christ comes into his kingdom in the future, meaning when the NJ that comes down from God out of heaven, the thief will be in paradise with Him as well.

Otherwise we have to assume utter nonsense, such as Christ coming into His kingdom upon death if we take verse 43 to mean that very same day.

Clearly, both Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:1-22 identify the paradise meant in Luke 23:43. Therefore, what Jesus said in verse 43 was prophetic in nature and meaning when He bodily returns in the end of this age, that being when He is coming in His kingdom.
What in the world are you talking about? Are you denying that the soul and spirit of the thief on the cross are in paradise/the third heaven now with Christ? I think it's becoming clear why you can never believe in Amil. You can't believe in soul sleep, as it seems like you do (notice I said "seems" - I could be wrong) and also believe in Amil.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This was the last statement that Christ declared in His earthly life. So, His Spirit immediately ascended to heaven to His Father, whereas His body was placed in the grave. In the three-day period of separation between body and spirit, Christ’s spirit abode in the heavenly abode, waiting for the unification of His spirit with His new incorruptible body. On the third day both parts re-unified. It was at this point that He was qualified to take the keys of hell and of death as He did; it was only then that He appeared unto the disciples in a glorified form.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour
(this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:


Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

It is finished

Whilst Matthew doesn’t identify what Christ said before He gave up the ghost John does in 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Christ didn’t need to go to hell for 3 days to be punished or to fully secure our penalty. The cross was enough.

What happened to Jesus after this?

Did He go to hell for 3 days as some say?

As soon as Christ died it seems like there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

I believe Christ's body was in the tomb for 3 days in-between His death and physical resurrection. I believe His Spirit went immediately into the presence of God. But, before that, I believe that He went descended into Hades to release all the redeemed and that they accompanying him into heaven.

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.

Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18, “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemies at the cross and gloriously rose from the dead.

The heart of the earth obviously basically means in the center of it. Christ's body was not buried miles and miles down into the center of the earth since that is ludricrous, not that you are saying His body was buried that deep. I'm simply proving a point here that it has to be Christ's soul that was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights since the heart of the earth couldn't possibly mean the surface of the earth or anywhere near it's surface. And that we are plainly told He was there for three days and three nights.

Therefore, you are letting some of your doctinal bias get in the way of the truth of the matter, that Christ's soul is meant in Matthew 12:40 because where His body was laid to rest was nowhere even remotely near the heart of the earth, basically meaning it's center. But Christ wasn't being punished there, though. No way do I think that. Yet, His soul was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, otherwise Christ lied to us in Matthew 12:40.

heart
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle :--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).

Now imagine the middle of the earth. No way is the middle of the earth anywhere near it's surface, because if it was it would not be the middle.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm simply proving a point here that it has to be Christ's soul that was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights since the heart of the earth couldn't possibly mean the surface of the earth or anywhere near it's surface.

It is man's corpse that goes into the grave, not our soul. Because one cannot be a soul without life. It was by His living (soul) spirit (alive) that Christ first descended into the place where the Old Covenant spiritual body was held captive after physical death and took them (spiritual body; living souls) with Him to heaven when He ascended there. Because the spiritual body of Christ, as living soul could not return to God who gave it before Christ came and gave His life to make atonement for sin, and defeat death through His resurrection.

The physical body of Christ went into the place of the dead called the grave where it remained three days until His spirit gave His physical now immortal & incorruptible human body life that He once again became a complete living soul (having body + breath of life (spirit). Saying Christ was in the 'heart of the earth' means there was life where Christ through His spirit went. Because to have heart means to be alive, having thoughts and feelings. Isn't that what we find with the description of the beggar, Lazarus who went there? Held captive in death but still possessing life. The grave took their flesh but could not kill their spirit that returned with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of saints as living souls.

No doubt you will continue to worry about where the heart of the earth is located because you have no answer for the in-depth truths that WPM gave you. It seems apparent that you have not understanding of the difference between spirit and soul. Man possesses spirit with human flesh and man became a living soul. Do your own research. It's difficult to distinguish between spirit & soul because both are present wherever there is life. Human flesh & blood cannot continue to be a soul once the spirit departs from the human body. Our body then becomes a corpse. Our spirit without the presence of the Holy Spirit within returns to God and is said to be in silence and darkness. But the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit within has eternal life and returns to God ALIVE as living spirit soul.

Of course, as a typical premillennialist you cannot fathom spirit life as living souls in heaven after physical death because that would destroy your doctrine of saints being physically resurrected to live and reign with Christ for one thousand years on this earth where Christ sets up the physical Kingdom of God. Since the martyred saints are still spiritually alive with the Lord in heaven after death, they don't need to be physically resurrected to live and reign with Christ. Because death never takes saints from the Lord.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,868
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
There is an old proverb that goes,
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

If you notice ,the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit hates the prostitute and makes her desolate and naked.The same beast kills the two witnesses.

The beast from the bottomless pit is the enemy of the prostitute.It is also the enemy of the two witnesses.

God gives the prostitute Babylon the cup of the wine of the wrath of God because Babylon worships the beast from the sea,it's image and she receives its mark.


If you thought the two witnesses were doing good,then why did the prostitute receive the mark of the beast while the two witnesses was with her?

Im just giving you something to think about.
Don't assume the two witnesses are doing good.


Revelation 14

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

Jesus is calling them HIS two witnesses and Jesus is giving them power.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,868
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I would not assume the two witnesses are martyred for Christ.
They are killed because they torment other people and kill other people.

They do not keep Christs commandments to his disciples and do not die for those commandments. They do not die for a testimony of Christ or for the word of God.

Also
They are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit.
Not the beast that came out of the sea.
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

Jesus is calling them HIS two witnesses and Jesus is giving them power.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is man's corpse that goes into the grave, not our soul. Because one cannot be a soul without life. It was by His living (soul) spirit (alive) that Christ first descended into the place where the Old Covenant spiritual body was held captive after physical death and took them (spiritual body; living souls) with Him to heaven when He ascended there. Because the spiritual body of Christ, as living soul could not return to God who gave it before Christ came and gave His life to make atonement for sin, and defeat death through His resurrection.

The physical body of Christ went into the place of the dead called the grave where it remained three days until His spirit gave His physical now immortal & incorruptible human body life that He once again became a complete living soul (having body + breath of life (spirit). Saying Christ was in the 'heart of the earth' means there was life where Christ through His spirit went. Because to have heart means to be alive, having thoughts and feelings. Isn't that what we find with the description of the beggar, Lazarus who went there? Held captive in death but still possessing life. The grave took their flesh but could not kill their spirit that returned with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of saints as living souls.

No doubt you will continue to worry about where the heart of the earth is located because you have no answer for the in-depth truths that WPM gave you. It seems apparent that you have not understanding of the difference between spirit and soul. Man possesses spirit with human flesh and man became a living soul. Do your own research. It's difficult to distinguish between spirit & soul because both are present wherever there is life. Human flesh & blood cannot continue to be a soul once the spirit departs from the human body. Our body then becomes a corpse. Our spirit without the presence of the Holy Spirit within returns to God and is said to be in silence and darkness. But the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit within has eternal life and returns to God ALIVE as living spirit soul.

Of course, as a typical premillennialist you cannot fathom spirit life as living souls in heaven after physical death because that would destroy your doctrine of saints being physically resurrected to live and reign with Christ for one thousand years on this earth where Christ sets up the physical Kingdom of God. Since the martyred saints are still spiritually alive with the Lord in heaven after death, they don't need to be physically resurrected to live and reign with Christ. Because death never takes saints from the Lord.

Jesus said that He would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and that the heart of the earth could not possibly, not even remotely, mean anywhere near it's surface. And since it is preposterous that His body would have been buried that deep, meaning miles and miles down into the center of the earth, it then does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what part of Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Do you even know that where the heart is in the body, that it's basically in the center of it? Maybe not exactly center, but close. And since Jesus said heart for a reason, and that the heart is basically in the center of the body, we then have to apply that to the earth, that He meant in the center of the earth. Use some common sense at least. I can't say that enough these days.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,868
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

Does Jesus' statement about what is born of the Spirit being spirit imply that the word "quickening" (zōopoiéō) is referring the the quickening of the individual's spirit that is born of the Spirit?

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul states,

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.

In the above two passages the word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the body of an individual whose spirit has been born of the Spirit of God. The above does not imply a "resurrection" of a (dead) human spirit.

What the above two passages are telling us is that once the living spirit of an individual has been born of God, the person's human body will be quickened by the Spirit of Christ in the person whose eternal life is IN CHRIST:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit. Christ's Spirit did not die. His body was quickened by the Spirit.

The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you.

Paul also says the exact same thing in his letter to the Colossians (Colossians 2:12 and Colossians 3:1).

This quickening of the body is also spoken about in:-

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15 vs. 22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead".

The hope that Peter is talking about is the confident assurance of the resurrection of our dead bodies (at the time of the return of Christ) - even after we have died.

The only spiritual body that the New Testament speaks about is the resurrected human body that had died:

1 Corinthians 15:44:
-- It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. --

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

ETERNAL LIFE

-- "And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

-- " In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" -- John 1:3.

-- "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6.

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." -- Genesis 2:17.

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die.'" -- Genesis 3:4.

(BECAUSE HE ALONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN HIMSELF AND OUR ETERNAL LIFE IS IN HIM)

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son (Jesus) to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

THE ETERNAL LIFE OF HUMANS IS IN CHRIST ALONE AND DOES NOT EXIST INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST. We must be born of God, and if Christ's Spirit dwells in us, He will also quicken our mortal bodies.

Human-eology (theology concocted in the minds of men) will steer everyone away from these facts - especially if the false doctrine of Amillennialism needs to be adhered to.

The final deception (Revelation 20:7-8) will probably be the same as the first.

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." -- Genesis 2:17.

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die.'" -- Genesis 3:4.

-- "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" -- Matthew 10:28​
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Davidpt

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,868
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Jesus said that He would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and that the heart of the earth could not possibly, not even remotely, mean anywhere near it's surface. And since it is preposterous that His body would have been buried that deep, meaning miles and miles down into the center of the earth, it then does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what part of Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Do you even know that where the heart is in the body, that it's basically in the center of it? Maybe not exactly center, but close. And since Jesus said heart for a reason, and that the heart is basically in the center of the body, we then have to apply that to the earth, that He meant in the center of the earth. Use some common sense at least. I can't say that enough these days.
We don't even need to ask where the heart of the earth is because we are told that Jesus' soul went to hades when He died.
 
Last edited:

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

Does Jesus' statement about what is born of the Spirit being spirit imply that the word "quickening" (zōopoiéō) is referring the the quickening of the individual's spirit that is born of the Spirit?

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul states,

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.

In the above two passages the word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the body of an individual whose spirit has been born of the Spirit of God. The above does not imply a "resurrection" of a (dead) human spirit.

What the above two passages are telling us is that once the living spirit of an individual has been born of God, the person's human body will be quickened by the Spirit of Christ in the person whose eternal life is IN CHRIST:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit. Christ's Spirit did not die. His body was quickened by the Spirit.

The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you.

Paul also says the exact same thing in his letter to the Colossians (Colossians 2:12 and Colossians 3:1).

This quickening of the body is also spoken about in:-

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15 vs. 22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead".

The hope that Peter is talking about is the confident assurance of the resurrection of our dead bodies (at the time of the return of Christ) - even after we have died.

The only spiritual body that the New Testament speaks about is the resurrected human body that had died:

1 Corinthians 15:44:
-- It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. --

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

ETERNAL LIFE

-- "And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

-- " In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" -- John 1:3.

-- "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6.

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." -- Genesis 2:17.

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die.'" -- Genesis 3:4.

(BECAUSE HE ALONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN HIMSELF AND OUR ETERNAL LIFE IS IN HIM)

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son (Jesus) to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

THE ETERNAL LIFE OF HUMANS IS IN CHRIST ALONE AND DOES NOT EXIST INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST. We must be born of God, and if Christ's Spirit dwells in us, He will also quicken our mortal bodies.

Human-eology (theology concocted in the minds of men) will steer everyone away from these facts - especially if the false doctrine of Amillennialism needs to be adhered to.

The final deception (Revelation 20:7-8) will probably be the same as the first.

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." -- Genesis 2:17.

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die.'" -- Genesis 3:4.​

And your posts in this thread are showing that the issues with Amil run deeper than just the placement of the millennium.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,868
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
And your posts in this thread are showing that the issues with Amil run deeper than just the placement of the millennium.
Yes.

-- "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" -- Matthew 10:28

He will always be able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna, and the second death has not yet occurred.

-- "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6.

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." -- Genesis 2:17.

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die.'" -- Genesis 3:4.

Those who believe that the eternal life that God has given us exists independent of the life of Christ in whom alone is life (i.e in themselves instead of in Christ who alone has eternal life in Himself, and who alone possesses immortality), are already believing the lie.
 
Last edited:

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
221
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

Jesus is calling them HIS two witnesses and Jesus is giving them power.
Did you know that Pontis Pilate was given power from.above?

The two witnesses are much like Pontis Pilate.
They too are also commanding an army of gentiles


John19:11
Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
 

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
221
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

Jesus is calling them HIS two witnesses and Jesus is giving them power.
Here in Mathew 24 Jesus talks about his servants at the time of the end.The same time frame as the two witnesses.


Mathew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Some of Jesus's servants don't seem to be doing what they should at the time of the end.
Hanging around with a drunken prostitute and smiting fellow servants is not what Jesus tells his witnesses to do in the gospel.


Can you tell by reading what the two witnesses do,if they are doing as Jesus commands us to do in the gospel,?
Are they doing unto others as they would have done to themselves?

Does Jesus command that we should torment other people and kill.them as the two witnesses do?
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is an old proverb that goes,
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

If you notice ,the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit hates the prostitute and makes her desolate and naked.The same beast kills the two witnesses.

The beast from the bottomless pit is the enemy of the prostitute.It is also the enemy of the two witnesses.

God gives the prostitute Babylon the cup of the wine of the wrath of God because Babylon worships the beast from the sea,it's image and she receives its mark.


If you thought the two witnesses were doing good,then why did the prostitute receive the mark of the beast while the two witnesses was with her?

Im just giving you something to think about.
Don't assume the two witnesses are doing good.


Revelation 14

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

As if it really makes a whole lot of sense, what you have been concluding about theses 2Ws, that if you correct, they are then rewarded with the following.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
221
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As if it really makes a whole lot of sense, what you have been concluding about theses 2Ws, that if you correct, they are then rewarded with the following.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Before assuming that ascending into heaven in a cloud is being rewarded for tormenting others,it would be best to understand the nature of the cloud that is ascending into heaven at the time of their departure.




I had assumed the same thing you do several years ago.
 

tailgator

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2024
2,845
221
63
61
North Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are going up to Jesus to receive their reward for tormenting other people.


Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite